Elitism and subscription fees.

[Dragonbums]

These guys are dicks, but monthly subs are a way of keeping certain people out (including people like me who won't pay subs).

Some think that this guarantees that only people willing to invest a lot money into the game will play it, which means that there's a bigger chance that each given user is an adult that would be on his best behavior and won't cheat because it could mean losing all that investment.

There are enough children and immature adults playing these games - not as much as in some F2P games, but still enough

I can understand that if it was monthly subs alone.

But the current TESO model is paying $60 for the game, plus a monthly fee of...what $10-15.00(?), and on top of that they had the gall to add a micro transaction store.

That's too much in my opinion.

 

[cikame]

I don't see the issue with paying for an mmo considering how expensive it is to run and maintain the game, but if you don't see enough value in it that's fine, there are plenty of other experiences.
Also i can't speak to the facebook crowd because i stay away from social sites.

 

[jackpipsam]

I subscribe to things, but I don't feel elitist about it.

I think games which require a subscription only have their place (a place I am happy to be).
But I also think free-to-play games have a place too.

One model doesn't fit all games, games should have a model which suits them.


I enjoy subscribing because I find it better to just have access to everything, without worrying about what's the catch and what barriers they will put up against me.


I personally disagree with the "freeloading" attitude.
I am more than happy to play with those who can't or won't pay money, the problem isn't with the players, the problem is with how it will affect the gameplay.


PS. I think TESO will be better off gameplay wise because of the P2P model.

 

[Doom972]

These guys are dicks, but monthly subs are a way of keeping certain people out (including people like me who won't pay subs).

Some think that this guarantees that only people willing to invest a lot money into the game will play it, which means that there's a bigger chance that each given user is an adult that would be on his best behavior and won't cheat because it could mean losing all that investment.

There are enough children and immature adults playing these games - not as much as in some F2P games, but still enough

I can understand that if it was monthly subs alone.

But the current TESO model is paying $60 for the game, plus a monthly fee of...what $10-15.00(?), and on top of that they had the gall to add a micro transaction store.

That's too much in my opinion.

Personally, I think that the subs alone are too much, but yes. Also, I don't understand why they even bother selling retail copies of an MMO instead of having it downloadable from the site (preferably for free of course).

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Like all things, subscription fees for large scale ongoing games like MMOs are a double edged sword. They really do contribute significantly to the quality of the experience you can expect to have. Nothing (or few inconsequential things) is behind a pay wall, content updates tend to be larger and higher quality, staff more numerous and more helpful, and the game in general just tends to be BETTER across the board. If you're any kind of hard core enthusiast, you also end up paying SIGNIFICANTLY less than you would if you went the nickel and dime "fee to play" route.

On the flip side, there's a psychological barrier to entry/re-entry. Want to pop back in to see what a patch or expansion did? $15, please. Some people will balk at that, which can mean the game bleeds subscribers rapidly, resulting in server closures and mergers, or accusations that the game is "a ghost town". Games that rely on huge, vibrant populations to drive their meta game will suffer.

Notably, the FTP "gold rush" has faltered badly in recent years. FTP games are extremely numerous now, and no longer enjoy the huge influx of players and income they used to. Too much competition, too many FTP players stretched too thin. You're going to see a movement back towards subscriptions for a while. They are MONSTROUSLY more profitable when they work, and with FTP being a bad bet at the moment even a middling sub game is going to enjoy significantly more ROI.

A good rule of thumb is this:

Are you planning on playing Game X for three or more months? Then a subscription fee is for you. If not, you're better off with FTP or BTP.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

Because the subscription fee also was useful to "keep the kids out" of WoW, right?

Dunno. I don't have problem with subscription, specially not for MMO's. I've had my fun with both ways of payment subscription and f2p and i had my share of bad memories. First being GW1/2 and WoW and the latter being Warhammer and .. well dozens of f2p mmo's that were crap

The only thing that bugs me is that if i'm on a subscription i notice that i feel i have to play else i'm wasting money. And that's not cool.

 

[Puzzlenaut]

It kind of annoys me that there is this dichotomy of subscription fees and F2P in the MMO market.

Subscriptions essentially mean I don't even own the game, and is no better than what Microsoft tried to do with the Xbone, and possibly worse. I will never pay a subscription to play a game, knowing that if my fees falter everything I accomplished is for naught (although I have experimented in it once or twice).

Meanwhile F2P MMOs (and F2P games as a whole, barring TF2, in my experience), have a certain seediness to them; a constant trying-to-force-you-to-buy-shit thing going on that drives me away; F2P is actually pay-to-win in almost all cases.

What I want is to spend £40 (or whatever) and own a game. A game I can play at will, free of people trying to peddle me things and safe in the knowledge that I own the game and I am not forever financially shackled to it.
People act as if somehow MMOs are incompatible with this payment method -- that the server costs and amount of content in an MMORPG are so great that they need a constant inflow of money from everybody. This is utter shite.

If MMOs worked on a one-fee basis, even if it was a higher fee, then finally MMOs could be rid of things that make them so tedious and tacky: the grind. Essentially every MMO currently is designed so that we spend as much time as possible doing every little thing so that we don't run out of content and stop paying the subscription/microtransactions. This makes them dull, repetitive, tedious and boorish.

The things that make the MMOs I have played and liked (to list them: Ultima, Star Wars Galaxies, Runescape and EVE) is not the quests and the content in of itself, but the interactions with other players; in all of these games player interaction was a lot more crucial to the experience than the majority of 'theme-park' MMOs of today. My point here is that I was kept amused by the sandbox, by the other players, not by the grind or the churning out of meaningless content and quests just to prolong my time playing *coughWoWcough*. Once I am hooked into the community, I will stay around, and so forcing me to grind my way up is pointless. EVE does this perfectly -- although there is a certain amount of grind, the game is open ended and so focused on the meta-game of warring clans that there is a massive amount of stuff to do without having to grind notably.

Seems like nothing is going to change, however: WoW is still a behemoth, and everyone; even, sadly, TESO, is out to capture its market, everyone tweaking things about MMO gameplay but not giving the genre the overhaul it needs to actually be fun like it was in the olden times.

 

[Milanezi]

Elitism where elitism is due. When you pay a lot on an iPhone (until they released this new colorful fellers, that is...), a Louis Vuitton bag, an Armani Collezione suit or something you're not only paying for the product's quality (which in some cases might even be questionable), but mainly for the brand, a brand that allows you to place yourself as "elite", or, in a less shocking manner, "high society". Still on point: when Louis Vuitton suffers due to piracy, it's NOT because of sales, its costumers won't buy the fakes and, most of them KNOW the difference, but because of damage to the brand: if the product becomes common place (even though it's not official), the "true" clients will step away from the trademark and look for something else, something still "untouched" and able to keep the elitist sign.

Not to be a hypocrite here, but I own Armani Collezione suits, and I payed the amount due to it, and it gives a status, and that status is PART of the product, I PAID for it. I'm not attacking elitism here, nor am I saying it's right. I'm just saying I accept it, I endorse it and let's leave it at that, deeper discussion in this merit will only hinder the focus here which is: "elitism where elitism is due".

The Elder Scrolls is a trademark and it carries its weight with it, you chose the mmo TESO for a reason, and that's due to its fame. Call of Duty, Final Fantasy, Fallout, Grand Theft Auto, all those games are more than games, they are brands first, and carry their own "status" weight along, otherwise we wouldn't spend 60 bucks or something to play them, or even wait for their release, we would simply pick one the hundred knock-offs that, sometimes aren't so different than the source-material. But we, maybe instinctively, will look for that intangible aspect that lies within a trademark, that thing that says "pick me because I'm better".

However, when it comes to games, despite what I wrote in the above paragraph and the undeniable existence of the weight of a given trademark, I think it's going too far to talk of "elitism", I'm not saying you're wrong, by all means, you are right, wrong are the ones who act elitist in a field where there is no such thing. It's an MASSIVE MO, it broke elitism when it mentioned masses, it will not profit on a handful of players, but rather the quantity of them. It might be expensive due to exploitation of the trademark, but that in itself does not make it "elite", at least not as far as the term in administration goes, playing a given game and thinking you're elite due to it only makes it clear that one is a sad person with a very limited understanding of the outside world (if any).

Elite is in the eye of the outsider, it's a societal judgement, its the type of clientele that ultimately decides, even in unintentional levels. As far as I'm concerned, I haven't seen a single game that is an article of eltism in those terms.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

People act as if somehow MMOs are incompatible with this payment method -- that the server costs and amount of content in an MMORPG are so great that they need a constant inflow of money from everybody. This is utter shite.

If MMOs worked on a one-fee basis, even if it was a higher fee, then finally MMOs could be rid of things that make them so tedious and tacky: the grind. Essentially every MMO currently is designed so that we spend as much time as possible doing every little thing so that we don't run out of content and stop paying the subscription/microtransactions. This makes them dull, repetitive, tedious and boorish.

Ironically, the most significant BTP success, Guild Wars 2, was arguably one of the grindiest MMOs of all, requiring LUDICROUS time sinks at higher levels to get incremental upgrades. Why? Because they sold gold to players as a way to end-around that. Why'd they do that? Because BTP alone is not a sufficiently profitable business model for large publishers to A) sink 50-200 million into making an AAA MMO and B) keep a large team pumping content into it, fixing bugs, and offering support for players. Games that underperform financially always have their live teams DECIMATED. Reality of the marketplace.

Seems like nothing is going to change, however: WoW is still a behemoth, and everyone; even, sadly, TESO, is out to capture its market, everyone tweaking things about MMO gameplay but not giving the genre the overhaul it needs to actually be fun like it was in the olden times.

Agreed we need more sandbox MMOs. I'm starting to reverse position on "the grind" though. As ludicrous as it seems, players seem to NEED a tread mill to keep running on post release or they FLIP THE FUCK OUT. Player expectations for content depth is insane. They'll play for 200, 300 hours, run out of content, and lose their minds....either accusing the game of being the worst ever made, or just up and quitting for greener pastures/a new title to devour. As creating bottomless one-off content is impossible, SOMETHING needs to be there to keep them busy. Quality design just hides it better.

 

[TheMigrantSoldier]

I don't want to keep the "filthy peasants" out or anything like that. I'd just prefer to pay up front and enjoy the full experience rather than have a "You don't have permission to enter instance DARK TEMPLE. Buy now!" every time.

I can't speak for everyone else, though. You'll find self-entitled snobs in every corner of gaming in general.

 

[endtherapture]

Ironically, the most significant BTP success, Guild Wars 2, was arguably one of the grindiest MMOs of all, requiring LUDICROUS time sinks at higher levels to get incremental upgrades. Why? Because they sold gold to players as a way to end-around that. Why'd they do that? Because BTP alone is not a sufficiently profitable business model for large publishers to A) sink 50-200 million into making an AAA MMO and B) keep a large team pumping content into it, fixing bugs, and offering support for players. Games that underperform financially always have their live teams DECIMATED. Reality of the marketplace.

I bought a full exotic set of Heavy Armour for about 30 gold, complete with runes, which I could farm up in about 8 hours of play.

If you want cosmetics in GW2 you'll obviously have to grind though.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I bought a full exotic set of Heavy Armour for about 30 gold, complete with runes, which I could farm up in about 8 hours of play.

"8 hours of play" means eight hours of grinding. Which is painfully repetitive in GW2, and particularly onerous in a game whose design manifesto called for the abolition of grinding.

Exotics are also basically level 80 "blue" tiers, comparable to old WoW dungeon blues. Now do the math on Ascended gear and the legendary weapons, which is basically the next tier up. Yes, I am aware they are "supposed to be hard to get". The fact remains there is a ludicrous grind in place, and it can be almost completely done away with if you shell out cash. This is the same maxim that drives free to play games. Power behind pay wall, or you can grind like a ************.

 

[endtherapture]

I bought a full exotic set of Heavy Armour for about 30 gold, complete with runes, which I could farm up in about 8 hours of play.

"8 hours of play" means eight hours of grinding. Which is painfully repetitive in GW2, and particularly onerous in a game whose design manifesto called for the abolition of grinding.

Exotics are also basically level 80 "blue" tiers, comparable to old WoW dungeon blues. Now do the math on Ascended gear and the legendary weapons, which is basically the next tier up. Yes, I am aware they are "supposed to be hard to get". The fact remains there is a ludicrous grind in place, and it can be almost completely done away with if you shell out cash. This is the same maxim that drives free to play games. Power behind pay wall, or you can grind like a ************.

Nah, just 8 hours of normal play. I refuse to grind and take part in the stupid farm trains that exist, I just play.

Also this was before ascended gear was introduced. Basically I play GW2 when I want and end up getting another tier of armour just through normal play.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Nah, just 8 hours of normal play. I refuse to grind and take part in the stupid farm trains that exist, I just play.

Also this was before ascended gear was introduced. Basically I play GW2 when I want and end up getting another tier of armour just through normal play.

8 hours of "normal play" could very easily include a lot of time spent faffing about, crafting, triggering waypoints, and doing other things that earn you ABSOLUTELY NO MONEY AT ALL. I could easily spend two-three hours screwing around and actually come out the other side with negative cash if I was liberally using way points. Dungeons net you sweet fuck all, unless they've seriously buffed them. If you're churning gold in this hypothetical eight hours, you are mowing down mobs one after the other, and you're likely using magic find gear to up your loot per hour. Either that, or exotics have dropped in price considerably and are now in the "handful o' silver" range.

Seriously man, we've both played the same game. If the next words out of your mouth are "lulz you're not playing it right" with the implication that by pressing 1 through 9 slightly more deftly I could make 10 times as much gold, I will come over there and rub your face in a mountain of cottage cheese. GW2 is grindy. Most heinously, it is VERY grindy after they specifically championed the removal of the grind. It's a fun game and I like it, but it's also terribly fucking disappointing.

 

[Seydaman]

...I have never even slightly understood people being against subscriptions.

I mean, just mathematically, the money to time ratio.

Not that it's an excuse to act elitist.

 

[Elementary - Dear Watson]

These guys are dicks, but monthly subs are a way of keeping certain people out (including people like me who won't pay subs).

Some think that this guarantees that only people willing to invest a lot money into the game will play it, which means that there's a bigger chance that each given user is an adult that would be on his best behavior and won't cheat because it could mean losing all that investment.

There are enough children and immature adults playing these games - not as much as in some F2P games, but still enough

I don't think that's going to be the case though. A lot of "mature" people are very busy people, with jobs, relationships, families etc. They either might not have the time or the funds to play the game.

Meanwhile spoiled little 10 year year old kid gets his subscription paid for him by his doting mother for 2 years. When I was about 13 and WoW was coming out, I wanted to play the game but my parents just wouldn't pay the sub fee for a game. However a lot of my friends who were pretty much annoying immature kids got their subs paid for by their parents.

Their logic simply doesn't make sense.

If your child was an annoying scrote, wouldn't you pay them to be quiet too?

It's just a result of shoddy parenting!

 

[endtherapture]

Nah, just 8 hours of normal play. I refuse to grind and take part in the stupid farm trains that exist, I just play.

Also this was before ascended gear was introduced. Basically I play GW2 when I want and end up getting another tier of armour just through normal play.

8 hours of "normal play" could very easily include a lot of time spent faffing about, crafting, triggering waypoints, and doing other things that earn you ABSOLUTELY NO MONEY AT ALL. I could easily spend two-three hours screwing around and actually come out the other side with negative cash if I was liberally using way points. Dungeons net you sweet fuck all, unless they've seriously buffed them. If you're churning gold in this hypothetical eight hours, you are mowing down mobs one after the other, and you're likely using magic find gear to up your loot per hour. Either that, or exotics have dropped in price considerably and are now in the "handful o' silver" range.

Seriously man, we've both played the same game. If the next words out of your mouth are "lulz you're not playing it right" with the implication that by pressing 1 through 9 slightly more deftly I could make 10 times as much gold, I will come over there and rub your face in a mountain of cottage cheese. GW2 is grindy. Most heinously, it is VERY grindy after they specifically championed the removal of the grind. It's a fun game and I like it, but it's also terribly fucking disappointing.

I was just playing the invasion living story content and doing the odd world boss and story dungeon run too but since you won't believe me then okay cool.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

...I have never even slightly understood people being against subscriptions.

I mean, just mathematically, the money to time ratio.

Not that it's an excuse to act elitist.

Barrier to entry/re-entry. It's dandy if and when you KNOW you're going to want to play enough hours to justify the sub. If you're uncertain, and want to test your toes in the water, or try a game you've previously left to see if issues have been fixed, it's a real pain to have to get out the credit card and justify gambling $15.

 

[Seydaman]

...I have never even slightly understood people being against subscriptions.

I mean, just mathematically, the money to time ratio.

Not that it's an excuse to act elitist.

Barrier to entry/re-entry. It's dandy if and when you KNOW you're going to want to play enough hours to justify the sub. If you're uncertain, and want to test your toes in the water, or try a game you've previously left to see if issues have been fixed, it's a real pain to have to get out the credit card and justify gambling $15.

...Don't people do that with almost all other games? But just gambling, you know, 50/60 dollars, instead of 15. Especially when so many games offer those "Ten day free trials". I see your point with retrying a game (assuming you do not want to make a new account), but considering that most other non MMOs don't even offer demos, it seems strange that it gets such a strong reaction.

Captcha: Escapist is advertisingly irritating.

Edit: Fixed spelling.