Elitism and subscription fees.

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BloatedGuppy

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seydaman said:
...Don't people do that with almost all other games? But just gambling, you know, 50/60 dollars, instead of 15. Especially when so many games offer those "Ten day free trials". I see your point with retrying a game (assuming you do not want to make a new account), but considering that most other non MMOs don't even offer demos, it seems strange that it gets such a strong reaction.
New MMOs have box fees as well. Both ESO and Wildstar will both feature box + sub, and ESO is throwing in microtransactions on top of that. So now now only are you gambling with your $60, you'll have them in your pocket in a month's time as well, if not before that. This gives all but the ardent pause.

Keep in mind, too, that with digital distribution you're looking at competition that isn't just other $60 games, but $30, or $10, or $5, or $2. Even the impatient will miss a few launch day titles and pick them up later on sales. And then you have the "Free to Play" market, clamoring to come give their shady MMO a try for NOTHING AT ALL, and I can certainly see how and why sub games run into trouble.
 

Silverfox99

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OP: I hope you realize that by expressing your distaste of the P2P system you did show a form of elitism also. Elitism is not just for the people that have money. That is one of the more common forms it takes but poor people have a form of elitism also. Next time I suggest just unliking without making a comment. If you want the developer to know your opinion email them directly that will do much more to change the game in a direction you want it to go then a Facebook post.
 

runic knight

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Whispering Cynic said:
Rob Robson said:
endtherapture said:
why do some people paying a subscription fee think they're in the upper class of gaming
Ï hate to say it, and this will sound ugly; but they say that because more often than not it's true.

Unfortunately, a subscription is the best way to keep out many (not all) gold farmers, multi-boxers, hackers, language deficient, trollish and generally unwanted individuals.
.
This is true, unfortunately. I've had the dubious opportunity to observe the transition of SW:TOR from subscription only to F2P model and the change in player base was absolutely staggering. One day you are playing with pleasant, considerate, helpful and friendly players (vast majority of them were, at least). The second day you are surrounded by spammers, trolls, idiots who can't figure out the right-click (despite using it several times already), people begging for money and stuff... and anything else you can imagine. Oh and about 40% of them can't speak english. At all.

The thing is if you have to pay to play a game, you apreciate it more. You put in an effort into your playing. Just by forking over a subscription fee you are demonstrating a degree of dedication, which many (not all) of the F2P players lack. They expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter and are angry and even abusive when that doesn't happen.

Call me elitist if you like, but my experience says that as long as there is no F2P option subscription fees are a great filter for undesirable players.
Couldn't the same level of appreciation come from a single purchase with online shop elements as it could with having to pay a forth of a new game fee every month?
I get what you mean about making it hard for gold spammers to show up and communication barriers, but those are not completely gone in subscription mmo either. The pay wall does help prevent toxicity, but does it need to be subscription based?
 

BloatedGuppy

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runic knight said:
I get what you mean about making it hard for gold spammers to show up and communication barriers, but those are not completely gone in subscription mmo either. The pay wall does help prevent toxicity, but does it need to be subscription based?
Not completely gone. Never completely gone. But FTP games are horrible for spamming. Report a spammer and he's gone only as long as it takes for him to make a new account. It's endless. You can't even squelch or ignore them because they just churn accounts all day long.
 

runic knight

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BloatedGuppy said:
runic knight said:
I get what you mean about making it hard for gold spammers to show up and communication barriers, but those are not completely gone in subscription mmo either. The pay wall does help prevent toxicity, but does it need to be subscription based?
Not completely gone. Never completely gone. But FTP games are horrible for spamming. Report a spammer and he's gone only as long as it takes for him to make a new account. It's endless. You can't even squelch or ignore them because they just churn accounts all day long.
Oh I know, I have done free to play before. What you describe is if the game is lucky enough to have active GM who do something. Some don't bother with that much. Nothing like listening to gold spammers for hours.

I still think a single pay for the game would be enough though. Not a subscription with single pay and cash shop...that is too much greed on display for me to want to be in that atmosphere.
 

Verzin

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Okay: here is my take on P2P in MMOs. It sucks to pay sub fees, but it makes for a better game.

I don't really have much to back this up except for what's happened to Tera. Great game. Best Combat I've ever seen in an MMO. When I played it last it was sub based. The economy was really fantastic, you could make money as a new player and you could buy things. Gold had a reasonable value.

When I came back recently, after Tera went F2P, the economy was batshit insane.

Gold inflation of over 1000% had occurred due to gold farmers. Things that were 20g are now 500 minimum (and this is for items for leveling characters. Stuff from the first dungeon. the lowest tier of items)

to put this in perspective: you're lucky if you have 5 gold at this level naturally. 20g was a lot. 500 is just out of reach. especially with all the gold sinks.


F2P in MMOs makes them more accessible, which seems like a good thing (and is, to an extent) but it also causes HUGE problems which, if not addressed properly, can completely ruin the way a game was supposed to be played.
 

BloatedGuppy

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runic knight said:
I still think a single pay for the game would be enough though.
You'd think that, but GW2 had one of the worst bot problems in modern MMO history. You'd occasionally run into "bot mobs" of like 20 guys named xxxyyzh just roaming the landscape like locusts. You'd report them, and a week later they'd still be there, botting away.

Stopping gold sellers is like trying to eradicate bedbugs.
 

runic knight

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BloatedGuppy said:
runic knight said:
I still think a single pay for the game would be enough though.
You'd think that, but GW2 had one of the worst bot problems in modern MMO history. You'd occasionally run into "bot mobs" of like 20 guys named xxxyyzh just roaming the landscape like locusts. You'd report them, and a week later they'd still be there, botting away.

Stopping gold sellers is like trying to eradicate bedbugs.
True, but if the price of admission is a $60 dollar price tag, or even a $30 dollar sales deal, it would theoretically be more effective then a $15 sub fee. Though yeah, would require active GM doing their job first.
 

Ionait

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I think you just need to look more on their side of things. Why are they paying for the game? If you find those answers, you'll probably find out why they snubbed you so easily.

I am only willing to pay a subscription fee to a company I trust will use that money properly. Properly managed subscription fees mean ongoing content for the game, keeping the game fresh, new, alive. Just look at Final Fantasy XI. That game is still running on a pay to play format and because of that the game is absolutely massive. Heck, they just got/are getting a brand new expansion introducing new storyline elements, NPCs, environments, and classes you can play.

Because of that, I'm willing to pay Squeenix a subscription fee. I have seen their track record and they're already making good on their word of providing fresh new content in patch format about every 3 months for FFXIV:ARR.

So in my case, my subscription means I personally am breathing life into a game. I am giving a favorite game constant CPR, making sure it doesn't die or get stale. So if someone tells me they want to play this game and wish it would just go free to play, I scream "Oh god please no!" Because that means killing it. Why would you want to kill my game? ;_;

On the other hand, as already stated, free to play games nowadays require payment for features anyway. Want a cool outfit, a new/faster mount? Hand over the cash. (TERA) Want to be able to give this health potion to your buddy? Well trading is only available to paying players. (Age of Conan, SWTOR) Oh and did we mention you only get 70% of the xp that paying players get?! The free to play model used to be fine, but it's going this way more and more.

So also think of the snubbing and elitism as a fear response. What if too many people demand free to play for my favorite pay to play game?! They might switch to the new free to play model and then I have to count every nickel and dime every feature costs and probably still not get all the content I was paying for originally in the pay to play model! To oppose this model, I must show utmost devotion to the pay to play, so my fears do not come true!

Well that was long. Sorry. xD
 

Abomination

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I've actually found I've gotten more out of subscription based models than I do out of F2P models of games.

Looking at RIFT for example I do like it's F2P model but if you were to pay a subscription - the original subscription - and compare it to the new subscription you actually got MORE for the original subscription. It's just one example but I think I'm seeing it with other F2P games.

But if someone doesn't want to pay for something and therefore can't play something I can't see myself being enough of a douche to scream "Hope the door hits you on the way out" or something... unless they were being a whiny arse about having to pay.

Were you being a whiny arse about having to pay, OP? Because I've seen a few folks with an inflated sense of entitlement think that new release AAA MMO RPGs should be both F2P and F2I.
 

fieryshadowcard

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My issue with P2P continues to be the issue that caused me to leave WoW after nearly 3 years of playing. It's not pay to play; it's pay to enter. If you want to revisit a game just to look at the character(s) you've fondly spent x amount of time raising up. Not even to take 5 steps. Just to reach the character screen, select one character, and enter the world. BAM! 15 bucks. No options for a lesser installment like 1 dollar for one day or 3 for 5. The whole month or gtfo. Coincidentally, the first game that ever implemented something even remotely similar to a more flexible payment plan was a F2P game I continue to play to this day. It was such a novel idea I actually remember calling the purchasable service in question reverse subscription. And the features that were paid for? Nice perks, but nothing you absolutely needed in order to play or even to have a good time.

I don't want to be tied down to one game due to a subscription, because then I feel obligated to get my money's worth from it. It's bad enough in the MMO world that taking a break from a game makes you feel like everyone else has passed you by, but to make you feel like you just blew 15 dollars for nothing is where I draw the line. This gets even worse if there are other subscription games you want to play alongside it.

Every additional subscription makes the value of each preceding subscription that much worse. The model only works if you want to play one game and only one game, and as such undermines the effectiveness of the entire subscription-based model when people naturally gravitate to one subscription-based game just because paying for several subscription-based games while only receiving a fraction of the benefits isn't nearly as feasible or desirable. It's so bad that people aren't even willing to TRY another subscription based game even if the game turned out to be really good, which is why so many up-and-comers either die out or are forced to go F2P. Subscription-based games don't encourage healthy competition; they encourage one, extremely healthy monopoly. I guess a euphemism with a positive spin on that is "quality over quantity."

On communities, let me just say that yes, there are less douchebags in P2P. There are also less nice people in P2P. But not proportionately. In any MMO I've played, I've found that the strongest communities are the self-policing ones, and some of the best communities I've belonged to are in the F2P domain. The only thing worse than a douchebag is a douchebag with money, and since we're speaking in sweeping generalizations here, P2P games are breeding grounds for douchebags with disposable income.

Have you ever seen a douchebag with an overly strong sense of entitlement because they dropped a little money down? Try working retail some time. They congregate at the register on a daily basis.

On bots and hackers, many F2P games are really good at dealing with both. Yes, many subscription games tend to have the edge here, but competent GMs and a self-policing community working together can achieve comparable results.

Lastly, microtransactions are not the devil. When handled stupidly, they can be a blight on a game, and I've seen my fair share of blatant cash grabs disguised as "games." But when handled properly, they can be as consumer-friendly as the subscription-based model. People like to point out that many F2P games in effect cost more per year to play than P2P games, and my rebuttal would then be, "What's your point?" If we're speaking only in terms of money, you might have one, but if we're speaking in terms of getting your money's worth, that point becomes lost. A player might be willing to pay more of their own volition in a game if they feel like they have more control over where their money goes. I'd argue that paying 50 bucks for the shiny thing I want and intend to use to its fullest completely beats paying 15 dollars just for the right not to get stopped at the login screen when I enter my username and password correctly. Being willing to pay more in a F2P game also undermines the "If you're not willing to pay a subscription, you're not as big a fan as me" argument many of the more insufferable P2Pers like to throw around.

Some years I pay more in F2P than I would have in a P2P. Some years I pay significantly less. Either way, I was content with every purchase because I found the value of my purchase to be 100% satisfactory.
 

Phaserlight

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DocHarley said:
All while P2P games like WoW, EVE Online, and even Vendetta Online appear to be doing just fine.
Just wanted to offer props for mentioning Vendetta Online, my favorite game of the past decade...
 

rbstewart7263

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KingsGambit said:
I actually prefer the subscription model to F2P and for a game I want to play, I would always rather pay a sub for a proper experience, than get a pared down version with chargeable extras. I like knowing that my single payment includes everything the game has to offer rather than getting things piecemeal.
its 50 cents a day every month to essentially have access to the servers which cost money to run. yeah I prefer to simply play in peace rather than start out and be like :

"oh this looks like some cool armor"PAYWALL!!!" Oh...ok heres my debit there you go. ok now onto the game. Gee it sure takes a long time to level here in this mmo, "PAY WALL" whats that? oh you want me to pay to have a normal leveling experience thats not akin to working in north korean slave mines ok here you go.