emotion in Western RPGs?

[Seldon2639]

*smacks head*

There are manymore emotional scenes better than Aeriths death in the FF series. Only reason everyone remembers her is because she was the first for so many....since noone even knew what RPGs were in USA for the most part at the time. Aerith's was poorly done. Just take half the deaths of FF2 (NES...not FF4) and those are better. Tidus's was better (though we all hate him). Vivi's was better and we don't even see him die, it's just understood.

That and MGS.....best death scenes ever. Even though Emma's was kind of stupid (and I really would like to forget Otacon's sex life)....it was artistically brilliant. Same with the Boss, Sniper Wolf, Olga, etc. Everyone's death is so ellaborate in MGS games.

EDIT: Ok....Aerith's theme playing right when the materia hit the ground was a nice effect though. I'll give it that. Her actually water burial was more "complete" than her actual death scene though. That scene was better produced.

The point is that it's "first". It introduced an audience (Americans) to the idea of a game in which you care so deeply about characters that their deaths actually make you feel bad. There was a quotation from Aimee Mann (weird reference, I know) who was saying that it's depressing to know that modern musicians are technically better than the Beatles. I think it's crap. Without Aeris, you don't have the idea of emotional attachment accepted enough to make a lot of the other games you mention.

Excluding FFII, all of the other games you mention came after FFVII. I've never played two, so I'll take your word for it being better, but I'm not talking about the technical elements of it. I'm talking about the influence it had. Think of it this way (another music reference): Jimmy Hendrix only had one number-one hit, and yet is considered one of the greatest guitarists ever. It's how the game/person/book/whatever shapes the future of that medium that matters

 

[Seldon2639]

Responding to Razzle Bathbone:

Quoting things is way too much work at this point. I think it really does come down to how much of an imaginative investment you're willing to make in the character. If your character kills every red-head he/she sees in a video game, it's too much of a leap for me to create a backstory for that. If it's a pen-and-paper RPG, that's one thing, since you're actually fully creating the character.

By the way, if you've read the Harry Dresden books, maybe you could help me out. I've been trying to tweak the Mage system from Whitewolf for a game based on the books, rather than wait for the real RPG to come out. I could use GURPS, but this seems more grounded. Any ideas?

 

[Vortigar]

VRaptorX:
You can tell stuff through gameplay instead of exposition, or during conversations where you can actually steer toward or away from information you'd like to have or don't want.

Knowing or not knowing things can change your experience with a game for better or worse. It is both the highlight and the downfall of Western RPG's.

And another thing:
I recently tried to replay FFX (never finished it in fact) and switched it off in furious anger after an hour when the thousandth unskippable cut-scene appeared. Really, try it now, you'll be bored to tears with the story and get annoyed at the cut-scenes. BG2 on the other hand, I played through to completion thrice with different alignment, class and party layouts. Also the reason I favour FF5 over all others in the series.

 

[Natural Hazard]

cutscenes don't work for everybody personally i don't mind them gives the gamer that chance to sit back and just watch, as JRPGs are generally aiming for the same level as storys and films. The story FFX is pretty decent bit slow to get into but the nonetheless good. JRPGS will hopefully never change, they don't need to maybe some of the tired story cliches do but hopefully turn-based/atb etc etc etc, cutscenes and 100-200+ material will all be staying there.

Western RPGS i love notable favurites of BG and the elder scrolls series. They work differently for me than JRPGS, i make my own storys in them, problem is i tend to get pretty annoyed as some of them especially the newer ones are sacraficing gameplay for graphics. Take a look at oblivion, yer it loooked nice but most of the system was fucked up, needless to say it was good for a while however.

 

[VRaptorX]

OK...games before FF7 eh? FF6 had a death of General Leo and possibly Shadow if you choose to (and multiple love interests by Kefka...thus furthering my point that FF7 is just 6 in 3D and to a lesser extreme). FF5 had someone die to cast the ultimate magic....sound familiar...and that attack did absolutly nothing to the villian. Aerith's death was just bits and peices of every other FF death before it.

 

[Man_In_Gauze]

Just go play System Shock 2, all of you.

And for those Baldur's Gate fans, try to pick up a copy of Icewind Dale I and II. It's more action-oriented than dialogue compared to BG, but the balance works out excellently, and it's a blast to play.

Although I have never actually played Baldur's Gate...I really want to. As soon as I finish IWD2.

You don't really have to worry about connecting with the characters in that game, because you are the characters. It's sort of like how you develop an attachment to each of the members of a group in a fantasy book, except this book starts out with a pre-written plot and you can make the characters yourself. It also gives you a good feeling of advancement; in the beginning of the game you feel like big-shots clearing out caves full of orcs and winning the adulation of the townspeople, but then strange things start happening, and you find yourself without a mentor or any way to plan out what to do; you just fall back on your swords and spells and end up talking with the minibosses and gleaning information from them before you fight. As the game goes on, the character who gives out your quests and such usually starts relying on you instead of vice versa; he tells you to go somewhere, you go in, talk to the baddies, get whatever information you can, then kill them all and come home (the option to talk one out of a fight happens fairly often, but always unexpectedly) to tell the boss what you know before. It really, for me, does the best job so far of capturing the true spirit of adventuring in a fantasy setting, especially demonstrating how it would feel to be an actual part of *insert Forgotten Realms novel here*. Speaking of which, if you read The Icewind Dale Trilogy by R.A. Salvatore, I doubly urge you to pick up at least Icewind Dale 1, as it is tied into the above books in everything but characters (taking place something like 60 years before the books do)

So, yeah. I love WRPGs, especially the Baldur's Gate-esque ones.

 

[Sinfulfate]

Emotional moments in JRPGs are scripted.

Emotional moments in western RPGs tend to occur organically.

In a JRPG, every detail of every character is decided by the game developers. You, the player, have no say in the matter. You don't get to choose the characters' names, you don't get to choose their appearance, gender, backstory, personality, nothing. So yes, they might get into intense relationships with other characters, but it's only the game developers who make this happen. You the player have nothing to do with it.

In a western RPG, the character becomes what you make it. If you sit there passively and wait to be entertained, there isn't much to them. They require you to actually roleplay. You have to use some imagination.

This doesn't mean western RPGs can't suck (oh my can they ever) and it doesn't mean JRPGs can't be good. But if you want to play a role, don't play JRPGs. There's no RP in JRPG.

Ya I totally agree.

The best thing about Western rpgs is that the experience differs depending on the player. If you got 5 guys together who just beat Mass Effect and they were discussing the game they all who have done things differently in game. Someone might have went paragraon, someone might have only had 4 party members, someone might have got a different ending; someone might hve upgraded his/her class, etc(I don't want to spoil the game). With a JRPG the experience is set by the developer so every player who beat FF VII gets the same experience. Bottom line is that JPRGS are insanely linear and Western RPGS are more open ended.

 

[Chilango2]

OK...games before FF7 eh? FF6 had a death of General Leo and possibly Shadow if you choose to (and multiple love interests by Kefka...thus furthering my point that FF7 is just 6 in 3D and to a lesser extreme). FF5 had someone die to cast the ultimate magic....sound familiar...and that attack did absolutly nothing to the villian. Aerith's death was just bits and peices of every other FF death before it.

Your thinking of FF4, and Tellah casting Meteo at Golbez and it not doing a thing. The strain of casting Meteo killed him (Tellah), too. It was all the more remarkable since FF4 had one of the worst cases of "character who is in your party dies. But NOT! Surprise! They are still alive!" known to man. Cid "died" twice, as I recall, and just about every other character who is ever in your party has one of those moments as well. (

I think FF7 was very good, honestly. I know its popular or trendy or whatnot to rag on it, but its mechanics were well designed, and to a certain extent the fact that the character sin the story *became* cliches is a mark of how iconic they were/are.

 

[Natural Hazard]

why are people so keen to kick of about linearilty these days, it has its place. God even some of the best games are linear, most of the time the fact that the game is open-ended for some means a huge world with fuck all going off. That being said i enjoy western rpgs, no matter how tiresome and annoying they can get also. Yes i do RP before people kick of and say "Well you can do this and that etc etc in WRPGS"

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

I misread the title, I was thinking cowboys and indians.

Somebody really needs to get on the ball and make one of those though.


I will say that FFXII would have been loads better had they followed Balthier and axed vaan and penelo.

Hey now, Ashe and Basche were awesome as well, not as awesome as Balthier, but still awesome. I even liked Penelo, she had sort of a charming innocence about her, but Vaan was intollerably annoying and the game would have been greatly improved without his presence since after the first 10 hours or so you find yourself wondering what the ef he's doing there.

 

[Man_In_Gauze]

why are people so keen to kick of about linearilty these days, it has its place. God even some of the best games are linear, most of the time the fact that the game is open-ended for some means a huge world with fuck all going off. That being said i enjoy western rpgs, no matter how tiresome and annoying they can get also. Yes i do RP before people kick of and say "Well you can do this and that etc etc in WRPGS"

Ah, that's what I forgot. Adding to the feeling of being in a book, both Icewind Dale games are pretty strictly linear, with minor deviations here and there, but none (AFAIK) with much long-term effect.

 

[VRaptorX]

FF7 didn't create the cliches. They were cliched before it. The characters in FF7 were anime steroetypes created in the 50's. Not saying the characters arn't iconic....just that they didn't start the cliches. Granted how many people cosplay as them? They almost are as popular as Link and Mario at times.

 

[Natural Hazard]

FF7 didn't create the cliches. They were cliched before it. The characters in FF7 were anime steroetypes created in the 50's. Not saying the characters arn't iconic....just that they didn't start the cliches. Granted how many people cosplay as them? They almost are as popular as Link and Mario at times.

We know it didn't create the cliches, but you need to take into account in terms of being westernly popular, FF7 started it, that is something that deserves to be respected. Hell god nos how the western world would take JRPGS nowadays if FF7 never had the effect that it did.

 

[VRaptorX]

OK...now I get what you were saying. I thought you wer suggesting that FF7 started the cliches. Alright...miscommunication.


And there would be a JRPG somewhere down the line that would make RPGs popular. If not FF7 than something else with a huge marketting campaign. FF7 just became the first because of the HUGE marketting campaign showing off the FMVs. Everyone had to buy it for that. It's a major success in marketting. Man...Sony actually made good commercials back then. Much better than the whole crying baby PS3 commercial.

 

[Seldon2639]

OK...games before FF7 eh? FF6 had a death of General Leo and possibly Shadow if you choose to (and multiple love interests by Kefka...thus furthering my point that FF7 is just 6 in 3D and to a lesser extreme). FF5 had someone die to cast the ultimate magic....sound familiar...and that attack did absolutly nothing to the villian. Aerith's death was just bits and peices of every other FF death before it.

My point was never that FFVII did it in a way that was better than anything before, merely that it was the game that introduced that kind of emotional connection to (a) a new audience, and (b) a new generation of gamers. Excluding "hardcore" gamers, do you really think many people played FFV or FFVI?

 

[Seldon2639]

Just go play System Shock 2, all of you.

And for those Baldur's Gate fans, try to pick up a copy of Icewind Dale I and II. It's more action-oriented than dialogue compared to BG, but the balance works out excellently, and it's a blast to play.

Although I have never actually played Baldur's Gate...I really want to. As soon as I finish IWD2.

You don't really have to worry about connecting with the characters in that game, because you are the characters. It's sort of like how you develop an attachment to each of the members of a group in a fantasy book, except this book starts out with a pre-written plot and you can make the characters yourself. It also gives you a good feeling of advancement; in the beginning of the game you feel like big-shots clearing out caves full of orcs and winning the adulation of the townspeople, but then strange things start happening, and you find yourself without a mentor or any way to plan out what to do; you just fall back on your swords and spells and end up talking with the minibosses and gleaning information from them before you fight. As the game goes on, the character who gives out your quests and such usually starts relying on you instead of vice versa; he tells you to go somewhere, you go in, talk to the baddies, get whatever information you can, then kill them all and come home (the option to talk one out of a fight happens fairly often, but always unexpectedly) to tell the boss what you know before. It really, for me, does the best job so far of capturing the true spirit of adventuring in a fantasy setting, especially demonstrating how it would feel to be an actual part of *insert Forgotten Realms novel here*. Speaking of which, if you read The Icewind Dale Trilogy by R.A. Salvatore, I doubly urge you to pick up at least Icewind Dale 1, as it is tied into the above books in everything but characters (taking place something like 60 years before the books do)

So, yeah. I love WRPGs, especially the Baldur's Gate-esque ones.

If you have a sec, read through the posts between Razzle Bathbone and me. The divide comes down a lot to how much of an internal imaginative leap you want to make in order to "complete" your character. In any Western RPG (excluding, maybe, Mass Effect) the reasoning behind decisions is entirely on the side of the player. So, while you can say (to yourself) the reason I killed that guy was because... It doesn't have any influence on the game (aside from that you killed him). The decisions are far more open-ended, but the character is less flushed-out in the game itself.

There does tend to be a dearth of WRPGs which aren't swords-and-horses fantasy. Mass Effect, System Shock, KOTOR. Once you've beaten those, it becomes a choice between JRPGs and "there's an ultimate evil in an ancient land/olde England, go to work". I'm going to make the reverse suggestion. Check out Disgaea, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy six, seven, ten, or twelve, or Dragonwarrior. Really give it a chance, instead of dismissing it immediately as a linear JRPG.

The best thing about Western rpgs is that the experience differs depending on the player. If you got 5 guys together who just beat Mass Effect and they were discussing the game they all who have done things differently in game. Someone might have went paragraon, someone might have only had 4 party members, someone might have got a different ending; someone might hve upgraded his/her class, etc(I don't want to spoil the game). With a JRPG the experience is set by the developer so every player who beat FF VII gets the same experience. Bottom line is that JPRGS are insanely linear and Western RPGS are more open ended.

Define why that's the "best thing" or even a "good thing" aside from personal taste, if you would. When did linearity become a bad thing? When did different endings, and everyone getting an individualized experience become the shibboleth for a good game?

 

[doubleDizz]

Ha ok. When I read the thread subject I thought you meant "Emotions of the actual characters in JRPGs". I was going to say:

Two emotions: >_< and "0_o

ha! [and back to our scheduled broadcasting]

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

I don't mind my actions not doing anything other than propelling the story forward, because I don't see myself as ever being part of the game. Ask the same question of people who like Halo, or Bioshock

Halo doesn't claim to be an RPG. Bioshock does, and I've avoided it for that reason. It's obviously an FPS with a few stats.

I wonder if a term like "plot-based shooter" would be more accurate. It would probably depend on whether the game was really intended to be played through with the plot, or if the plot was basically just thrown in to support the obligatory single-player mode.

 

[Razzle Bathbone]

if you've read the Harry Dresden books, maybe you could help me out. I've been trying to tweak the Mage system from Whitewolf for a game based on the books, rather than wait for the real RPG to come out. I could use GURPS, but this seems more grounded. Any ideas?

You might try "Authentic Thaumaturgy" by Isaac Bonewits. It's a generic magic system that could fit into GURPS or the Storyteller system, from a modern occultist's point of view. I've never read the Dresden books, but if a "realistic" occult feel is what you're after, that's the best sourcebook I know of. Plus the author has some entertaining rants about magic stuff.

Let me know how it turns out.

 

[Razzle Bathbone]

There does tend to be a dearth of WRPGs which aren't swords-and-horses fantasy. Mass Effect, System Shock, KOTOR. Once you've beaten those, it becomes a choice between JRPGs and "there's an ultimate evil in an ancient land/olde England, go to work".

Dude! You're a White Wolf fan and you haven't played Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines yet? You've gotta play it! It's only twenty bucks on Steam! Do it! Do it now!

Your point is well taken, though. Not a lot of others apart from the ones you mentioned. Morrowind's fantasy world felt very alien and different from your typical western swords&horses fare, which is why a lot of us were kinda disappointed with Oblivion's more generic look and feel.

And I'm not going to mention Deus Ex, because it's pretty much a stealth-shooter with stats and experience points. Even though it's awesome. (The original, that is. Not the sequel.)