English Defence League

[Actual]

Actually, what are they trying to achieve?

At the moment I can see how their protests would escalate tensions but not how they could help peacefully integrate Muslims into our country.

So until I hear how they can help the situation I'm opposed and they should all be quiet.

 

[Shynobee]

Why are there no controversial groups trying to defend people against the dangers of Christian extremists?

Thats Richard Dawkins job isn't it?

 

[Booze Zombie]

1) Hating Islam isn't racist, it's religionist. If they just hated Arabs in general it would be different, but not all Arabs are Muslims.
2) I think that, even though they have a lot of bad press, they're for a good cause. I live in America, but I've heard a lot about how "Muslims are invading Europe." I support a more hardline stance that says "these are the morals we believe in in this country. If you don't agree with them, either stay away or convert." There's no reason to give Muslims special treatment just because they come from a backwards culture.

Got to be honest, you sound pretty damn ignorant.

Almost like all you know about Europe comes from a BNP site...

 

[Sulu]

Remember that even if a party is not officially racist, individual members could potentially be... I'm not saying this is the case with EDL, though.

I support their stance against religious extremism. But why only muslims...?

Because of the whole terrorist thing maybe? Bombs on tube etc. Now that things in Ireland are (relatively) peaceful, its only really extremist Muslims wanting to blow shit up. Well maybe not only them, but they seem to be the main ones...

Exactly! We hate these muslim extremists because our boys are fighting them in Afghanistan and they have their little sub groups all over the world trying to start trouble. They killed hundreds of people.
In fact the 'War on Terror' is exactly what the EDL chaps want, an end to muslim extremism, because they are the biggest threat.

As a sub point I would like to point out that in the UK the IRA were a bigger threat by far than anything the muslim extremists have achieved. Maybe they aren't as skilled at killing civilians or MI5 are using all their years of experience dealing with terrorism.

So yeah just because these extremists take their faith very seriously and call jihads on the west doesn't make us racist for hating their guts. I mean these fellas are living in a mind set trying to kill the 'evil west' and still talk about the Crusades as if they happened yesterday.

These muslim extremists are facist, racist terrorists that don't have a place on this planet. The EDL have a non racist ideal, sure some members may be racist but there will be racists in the UAF and there will be racists on your bus to work. You shouldn't put the EDL in a bad light because some people might be racist or they are linked to football firms but instead focus on what they are trying to achieve! A safer country for our children so they don't get obliterated when somebody blows up a bus or a train in the name of a god.

 

[Wadders]

Reckon the fact that Christian extremists haven't blown the shit out of people on tubes in recent years might just have something to do with it though...

I guess people like Doctor Tiller and other workers at abortion clinics don't count?
Muslims don't have the monopoly on religiously motivated murders and bombings.

Yeah ok, you're right, I've removed that bit of the post. However, like I said somewhere else on this thread, they may not have the monopoly on murders/ bombings etc, but they are the main focus of our anti-terrorism stuff, because of what is going on in the middle east, and the fact that there have been recent bombs and bomb attempts from Muslim extremists in the UK, and these appear to be more frequent than attempts by other groups. Or so it seems. This is the reason why they are the focus of the EDL. I'm sure if we were getting news of bomb attempts from Christian extremists, then no doubt some group or another would be asking for the removal of Christian fundies from the country.

Sorry if that was kinda garbled

 

[The Bandit]

1) Hating Islam isn't racist, it's religionist. If they just hated Arabs in general it would be different, but not all Arabs are Muslims.
2) I think that, even though they have a lot of bad press, they're for a good cause. I live in America, but I've heard a lot about how "Muslims are invading Europe." I support a more hardline stance that says "these are the morals we believe in in this country. If you don't agree with them, either stay away or convert." There's no reason to give Muslims special treatment just because they come from a backwards culture.

1) Does the reason matter? Hate is hate, no matter what you call it. This is a shitty argument tactic that people use all the time. Stop doing it.

2) What morals are you talking about? Certainly not those tolerance morals. Certainly not the morals that America values itself on (life, liberty, all that jive).

Terrorists = bad

Muslims != bad

Stop confusing the two. Stop being ignorant.

 

[Nickolai77]

On paper the EDL sounds good, there mission is to basically protest against radical Islam. In practice not so, the EDL appears (according to the BBC links)to be heavily influenced by football hooligan's, and this could explain why many of them where arrested during a recent protest. The EDL say they are peacefully protesting, but in practice this is not the case.This could possibly because of their link's with football hooligan's and chav's, along with perhaps hostility from unite against fascism causes their protests to turn violent.


What's also interesting is that the EDL, so they say, are protesting against radical Islam, but also appear to be protesting against the construction of mosques. Yes, some mosques may foster radical Islam, but i imagine that most do not.They seem to be assuming that most mosques foster radical Islam, which i think they don't.

EDL needs to lose the chav influence, and be more careful not to make dangerous assumptions that most Muslims are extremists. Really they should try to appeal to moderate Muslim's by not protesting against the construction of mosques, and by engaging in a media-campaign with the aim of fostering the integration of Muslim's into British culture. Let MI5 do what they are being paid for, and that is hunting down Muslim extremist's, so far i think they have done a damn good job.

I do sympathise with the EDL, i just think they are going about it wrong. My take on the issue is that Muslim's came here to live in the UK and become British citizen's, and therefore they should adopt, within reason, British practice's and culture. "When in Rome, do as the Roman's do" as they used to say. If i was in America, i would use American terms in my speech and spell like an American, and i would expect vise versa from any American's in the UK.

 

[RavingLibDem]

Oh dear god, this topic has brought some interesting replies out... by interesting I mainly mean misinformed and wrong, but such is the internet.

The UK is not being 'invaded' by muslims or extremists, the vast vast majority of muslims live perfectly peacfully in our value system, doing their own thing, and generally exercising their right to freedom of expression. For those that have been radicalised we can mainly blame ourselves for attacking all muslims, and tarring them with the same brush. Of course there are some muslims who support extremism, but this is a tiny minority. The English Defence League however feeds on the fear of the misinformed and bigoted, basing their grouping on the hooligan groups from Football, they tend to simply try and spark trouble, and then point at it to suggest that the white majority are in some way being repressed.

I hate to point it out but when people start talking about white people being repressed, its really hard not to laugh. In a country where 80-85% of the population are white, its really quite difficult to see how we are being repressed in a country where christianity remains the accepted and mainly dominant religion.

Anyway, if your going to support their cause then please god get some facts to back you up, rather than just saying, oh well, these guys seem nice, I'm sure the muslims must be taking over ¬,¬

 

[Godavari]

1) Hating Islam isn't racist, it's religionist. If they just hated Arabs in general it would be different, but not all Arabs are Muslims.
2) I think that, even though they have a lot of bad press, they're for a good cause. I live in America, but I've heard a lot about how "Muslims are invading Europe." I support a more hardline stance that says "these are the morals we believe in in this country. If you don't agree with them, either stay away or convert." There's no reason to give Muslims special treatment just because they come from a backwards culture.

Got to be honest, you sound pretty damn ignorant.

Almost like all you know about Europe comes from a BNP site...

To be honest, but I don't even know what "BNP" stands for, or what views it represents. I'm an atheist, and keep up with several news feeds. Any religious news from Europe usually involves Muslims being treated as "special" because their faith requires X. If I sound ignorant or uneducated, I probably am. The way the situation has been presented to me, it makes it seem like Muslims, even moderate ones, are getting things like "Muslim-only pool days" and trying to press charges against those who disagree with them publicly.
I may be completely wrong about the situation, but I'm fairly certain that at least a good bit of what I read is true. I think we can all agree that if people from a different culture willingly migrate to ours, they should abide by our rules.

 

[Wadders]

On paper the EDL sounds good, there mission is to basically protest against radical Islam. In practice not so, the EDL appears (according to the BBC links)to be heavily influenced by football hooligan's, and this could explain why many of them where arrested during a recent protest. The EDL say they are peacefully protesting, but in practice this is not the case.This could possibly because of their link's with football hooligan's and chav's, along with perhaps hostility from unite against fascism causes their protests to turn violent.


What's also interesting is that the EDL, so they say, are protesting against radical Islam, but also appear to be protesting against the construction of mosques. Yes, some mosques may foster radical Islam, but i imagine that most do not.They seem to be assuming that most mosques foster radical Islam, which i think they don't.

EDL needs to lose the chav influence, and be more careful not to make dangerous assumptions that most Muslims are extremists. Really they should try to appeal to moderate Muslim's by not protesting against the construction of mosques, and by engaging in a media-campaign with the aim of fostering the integration of Muslim's into British culture. Let MI5 do what they are being paid for, and that is hunting down Muslim extremist's, so far i think they have done a damn good job.

I do sympathise with the EDL, i just think they are going about it wrong. My take on the issue is that Muslim's came here to live in the UK and become British citizen's, and therefore they should adopt, within reason, British practice's and culture. "When in Rome, do as the Roman's do" as they used to say. If i was in America, i would use American terms in my speech and spell like an American, and i would expect vise versa from any American's in the UK.

YES!

That's pretty much exactly my thoughts. They more or less have the right idea, they are just presenting themselves in the wrong way. Some people wont respect them or listen to them because they're working class men in chavvy(ish) clothing. Sounds snobby, but that's the way it is.

 

[Sulu]

On paper the EDL sounds good, there mission is to basically protest against radical Islam. In practice not so, the EDL appears (according to the BBC links)to be heavily influenced by football hooligan's, and this could explain why many of them where arrested during a recent protest. The EDL say they are peacefully protesting, but in practice this is not the case.This could possibly because of their link's with football hooligan's and chav's, along with perhaps hostility from unite against fascism causes their protests to turn violent.

Please don't think the EDL were the only violent once. Unfortunately the BBC link has just gone but at the last EDL peaceful protest the UAF were being very aggressive. At one stage the UAF tried to break through the police line to attack the EDL. If they were as thugish as the media protray then surely a riot would have happened. United Against Facism are just hiding behind that name to get media immunity and can do what they like, violent or not, and the EDl will always get the bad end of the stick.

 

[Acidwell]

Spoiler: image

Of course they are going to deny any prejudice otherwise they wouldn't get protest rights or any press time. I'm not saying they are fascist but if you read reports of their marches they sound a lot like the anti-jewish marches held by Oswald Mosley in the early 1930s and we all know how that turned out.

 

[Godavari]

1) Hating Islam isn't racist, it's religionist. If they just hated Arabs in general it would be different, but not all Arabs are Muslims.
2) I think that, even though they have a lot of bad press, they're for a good cause. I live in America, but I've heard a lot about how "Muslims are invading Europe." I support a more hardline stance that says "these are the morals we believe in in this country. If you don't agree with them, either stay away or convert." There's no reason to give Muslims special treatment just because they come from a backwards culture.

1) Does the reason matter? Hate is hate, no matter what you call it. This is a shitty argument tactic that people use all the time. Stop doing it.

2) What morals are you talking about? Certainly not those tolerance morals. Certainly not the morals that America values itself on (life, liberty, all that jive).

Terrorists = bad

Muslims != bad

Stop confusing the two. Stop being ignorant.

1) I was merely trying to clarify terms, and I guess I didn't do a very good job. What "ism" we call it doesn't matter, I just don't like it when people use misnomers. We're talking about Muslims, and Islam isn't a race.
2) I'm not being ignorant, I'm stating my opinion. I think Islam is a detestable worldview. When I say "morals" I'm talking about things like freedom of speech, press, and equal treatment. Several articles I've read (and hey, I'll admit it, maybe I'm not looking at both sides here) suggest that Muslims in Europe receive special protection from opposing views. Disagreement is life, and if they're not prepared to deal with it, then they can go back to where they came from.

 

[Wadders]

Oh dear god, this topic has brought some interesting replies out... by interesting I mainly mean misinformed and wrong, but such is the internet.

The UK is not being 'invaded' by muslims or extremists, the vast vast majority of muslims live perfectly peacfully in our value system, doing their own thing, and generally exercising their right to freedom of expression. For those that have been radicalised we can mainly blame ourselves for attacking all muslims, and tarring them with the same brush. Of course there are some muslims who support extremism, but this is a tiny minority. The English Defence League however feeds on the fear of the misinformed and bigoted, basing their grouping on the hooligan groups from Football, they tend to simply try and spark trouble, and then point at it to suggest that the white majority are in some way being repressed.

I hate to point it out but when people start talking about white people being repressed, its really hard not to laugh. In a country where 80-85% of the population are white, its really quite difficult to see how we are being repressed in a country where christianity remains the accepted and mainly dominant religion.

Anyway, if your going to support their cause then please god get some facts to back you up, rather than just saying, oh well, these guys seem nice, I'm sure the muslims must be taking over ¬,¬

Woah. Seems like this touched a nerve?

I agree with you that people ought to be well informed about things like this, and that Britain is in no way being invaded by malicious Muslims, and those that claim it is are fools. The vast majority of Muslims are law abiding, peaceable people, just trying to settle into a society that does not yet fully accept them. However you cant possibly say that these guys (on paper at the very least) dont have a fair point. Unless that is, you like having extremists trying to blow you up?

Na, didn't think so.

 

[MusicalFreedom]

One thing you gotta remember with the EDL is that saying "we're not racist, we just don't like extremism" is a dogwhistle. We might not hear it, but floating just above our hearing-range, they're really saying "kick those sandniggers out". Are you lot seriously optimistic enough to think that they would stop if extremism were removed?

sure, pledge to remove extremism, fantastic, if they opposed extremism in all forms it would be fine, but the EDL is hilariously transparent.

 

[Wadders]

One thing you gotta remember with the EDL is that saying "we're not racist, we just don't like extremism" is a dogwhistle. We might not hear it, but floating just above our hearing-range, they're really saying "kick those sandniggers out". Are you lot seriously optimistic enough to think that they would stop if extremism were removed?

sure, pledge to remove extremism, fantastic, if they opposed extremism in all forms it would be fine, but the EDL is hilariously transparent.

Hmm, fair point...

I'm still undecided. It's a nice idea on paper, and I wouldn't go so far to say that all of it's members are racists, but it does have the potential to be a pretty ugly organization. I want to be optimistic about them, but what people have said about them as far as their more unsavory aspects go is kinda praying on my mind too...

 

[Danny Ocean]

*snip*

I hate to pick up on this in such a long and well-written post, but you don't need apostrophes to make a word plural, just add the -s.

 

[Wicky_42]

I'm happy with a multi-cultural, diverse Britain - it's great that other peoples think our country's worth living in (and, of course, I love Chinese and Indian foods .

However, shit like Muslims wanting to live under only Sharia law takes the mick. I think that the whole thing was blown up in the press - I'm fairly certain that they just wanted a few adjustments or something, but even that's taking liberties: you live here, you live by our laws. Makes sense - we don't move to other countries and expect them to change their laws for our benefit and comfort.

To be honest, I'm all up for an abolition of this whole 'PC' thing - fuck political correctness, I'm no politician, and I like to speak my mind. There's a difference between being racist and saying words, and PC restrictions often prevent discussion of the problems of segregation and discrimination that do affect our society. It's easy to label someone as a racist, or to feel uncomfortable when that sort of thing is being discussed, rather than man up and talk frankly.

That said, I don't know if the EDL is any more than a bunch of BNP activists. You could say that their heart is in the right place - defending their nation's identity n all - but they need to work on their definitions and focus, as well as their image.

 

[RavingLibDem]

Oh dear god, this topic has brought some interesting replies out... by interesting I mainly mean misinformed and wrong, but such is the internet.

The UK is not being 'invaded' by muslims or extremists, the vast vast majority of muslims live perfectly peacfully in our value system, doing their own thing, and generally exercising their right to freedom of expression. For those that have been radicalised we can mainly blame ourselves for attacking all muslims, and tarring them with the same brush. Of course there are some muslims who support extremism, but this is a tiny minority. The English Defence League however feeds on the fear of the misinformed and bigoted, basing their grouping on the hooligan groups from Football, they tend to simply try and spark trouble, and then point at it to suggest that the white majority are in some way being repressed.

I hate to point it out but when people start talking about white people being repressed, its really hard not to laugh. In a country where 80-85% of the population are white, its really quite difficult to see how we are being repressed in a country where christianity remains the accepted and mainly dominant religion.

Anyway, if your going to support their cause then please god get some facts to back you up, rather than just saying, oh well, these guys seem nice, I'm sure the muslims must be taking over ¬,¬

Woah. Seems like this touched a nerve?

I agree with you that people ought to be well informed about things like this, and that Britain is in no way being invaded by malicious Muslims, and those that claim it is are fools. The vast majority of Muslims are law abiding, peaceable people, just trying to settle into a society that does not yet fully accept them. However you cant possibly say that these guys (on paper at the very least) dont have a fair point. Unless that is, you like having extremists trying to blow you up?

Na, didn't think so.

It touched a nerve because I dislike people agreeing with groups without looking into what they actually say, The EDL may well sound perfectly reasonable on paper, so have many people, however what they do is protest against pretty much any expression of islam anywhere in society, not the terrorists. Anyway, there's a group against terrorist extremists, I do believe its called MI5