"Entitled gamers" starting to remind me of "frivolous lawsuits".

[Rariow]

We ARE game academia (Or at least I like to think we are so I feel better about myself). Are we bitchy and overly keen to discuss the shit out of any major new thing? Sure. But it's also the way that we keep the games industry in check. If not for our bitching and moaning, we'd be living in a world where all games have always online DRM, with the Xbone still having its horrible features, where Steam is still as broken as it was in its genesis. It would be unpleasant for all gamers, not just those of us who frequent these types of forums.

Also, half the time when "entitled gamers" is thrown around, we ARE entitled. We were called entitled when we complained about Diablo 3, but we were entitled to a working game when we payed 60 bucks for it. We were called entitled when we complained about Sim City, but we were, once again, entitled to a working game.

Does the industry want to paint us as evil, complaining assholes? I guess. Would be in its favour? No. As much as we complain, and *****, and moan, and be generally negative, it DOES have an effect. You can't not see a shitstorm of the size of the Xbone debacle, even if you're Microsoft. The Xbone wouldn't have done well, no matter if we didn't know until a week before launch. We actively saved Microsoft a bunch of money.

Now I'm just writing in circles, but I think my point is made: Our constant bitching is a good thing for the industry. Whilst every other artistic medium has a circle of academics to keep it in check, the games medium is too young for one, so it has to do with us, the uncivilized hordes of the internet for now.

 

[rob_simple]

I think the problem with the concept of entitlement is that it's used as a blanket term and is exploited on both sides.

The Xbone, in my opinion, was a legitimate victory for the consumer who actually wanted their voice to be heard for a change. To some extent you could say the same about the Mass Effect 3 fiasco, although as far as I'm aware the exact details oh who was to blame there never really came to light.

The problem with victories like this, though, is that it leads genuinely entitled people to assume that just whining about something will get them what they want --whether their complaint is consensus or even valid or not-- and that means people voicing legitimate complaints are often dismissed alongside the fruitcakes losing their shit over the colour of Sonic the Hedgehog's eyes or Dante's hair.

You can't really blame a lot of developers for thinking we're entitled when the most vocal members of our community often are.

Dude, its the gaming industry. If people are whining then they have a problem and they need to acknowledge it. If people don't complain then companies like Bioware could get off scott free, at the end of the day it comes down to whom is getting your money. Its one thing to voice your complaint, its another thing to be an odious red-neck , call up customer service, curse them out and launch death threats.

Since I have no intention of doing the latter, if there is something I do not like about a game, I will say it. Not to mention, it will influence my choice of buying a product from said company again.

'Mark of the Ninja' for example, put Klei entertainment as one of my tops. Now, I want to buy 'Don't Starve'
'Bastion' put Supergiant in good with me, and now I want to buy 'Transistor'

'League of Legends' constant output of skins, and good customer service kept me on board for awhile, but there were issues in ranked that resurfaced so much that I decided to stop playing seriously.

'Fire Emblem : Awakening' was an awesome game, now the idea of buying Nintendo games doesn't bother me anymore.

'Halo 4' was not nearly as fun as Halo 3, and now I will not be buying another halo title for awhile if ever again.

The point is, we want video games, they want money, complaints is a form of customer relations that keeps the company delivering what we want so they can get what they want.

Yes, but not every complaint is valid; contrary to popular belief opinions can be wrong.

There's a difference between what you're describing and what I'm talking about. I, too, will voice my opinion on games that I don't like and the reasons why, and again like you, I will avoid games if I feel like they are being taken in a direction I don't agree with. What I will not do is demand that changes be made just to accommodate what I want, no matter how trivial or individually specific my issues are.

Quick example off the top of my head: Ratchet & Clank is my favourite series of all time. I wasn't happy when Insomniac turned the franchise into a multiplayer only affair and I stopped buying the games, as a result. This didn't, however, stop me from buying the Resistance games and it didn't stop me anticipating their new (single player) titles, because I still know they are an extremely talented studio. At no point did I start sending them e-mails saying 'wah wah, make Ratchet & Clank games just for me, I hate multiplayer, give me what I want I don't care what you want to do' because it's not my place to tell a studio how to make their games.

I'm not for a minute saying we should all sit on our thumbs and just take whatever we're given and just be thankful the developers were good enough to grace us with their games, but I think it's a case of knowing when to choose your battles. I wasn't making up the examples in my earlier post: people really did lose their shit over Sega changing the colour of Sonic's eyes in Sonic the Hedgehog 4, I think it was, and I'm pretty sure in the end Sega caved and changed it back.

If you honestly think that making a serious complaint about something as trivial as eye colour is valid, then there's no point in us discussing this further because our world views come from different planets.

 

[Atmos Duality]

You don't matter nearly as much as you think you do, but guys like you yell and whine the loudest. That's why you are said to be so entitled.

If that's what the industry really thinks, if we have reached the point where people are condemning the DEMAND side of the market for stating what they want and/or why they don't like certain offers, then perhaps it is time for the market to crash and start over since neither side is willing to trust the other.

This finger-pointing bullshit is ridiculous; neither side trusts the other nor do they want to listen.

Also:
If the loudest and whiniest gamers don't matter and the industry knows that Then why are they listening at all?

Why did Microsoft flip on the DRM platform for the Xbone?
Why did EA cave to the endless outrage?

What do they fear from the vocal minority if they know they're insignificant?

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

I agree. People dont even know what consumer rights are. They use it to say they are forced to buy a kinect with the xbone. When they are not. You know whats in the box, its up to you if you want to buy it or not. Those are your rights out side of 30 day refund laws. So people moan they want an xbone but not kinect, then why are they moaning? Why not either wait for it to get cheaper or just not buy it? Now my last consoles were xbox and 360, but i will just wait for it to be cheaper. An i dont like kinect but i know the xbone is packaged with it so why would i moan? Would they moan if it was the same price as PS4? I doubt it.

 

[Phlakes]

People may have been right to call out Microsoft but you can't expect to be taken seriously when you're a dick about it. There's a big difference between "X is wrong and this is why" and "fuck you for doing X". And it only takes a few to ruin the message.

You don't matter nearly as much as you think you do, but guys like you yell and whine the loudest. That's why you are said to be so entitled.

If that's what the industry really thinks, if we have reached the point where people are condemning the DEMAND side of the market for stating what they want and/or why they don't like certain offers, then perhaps it is time for the market to crash and start over since neither side is willing to trust the other.

You aren't the entire market, though. If the industry only listened to forum goers Call of Duty would've been dead years ago, but because Activision followed the stats rather than angry people on the internet they keep selling more than anything ever.

 

[SeventhSigil]

In this particular situation, there is also the issue of genuine brand loyalty. It's something that companies sort of brought on themselves, with their exclusive titles And as a result ended up with a group of people who were attracted to what they have to offer. Now, there are two kinds. There are those who would never dare raise serious issue and happily accept whatever the company told them, even if The console sporadically gave electric shocks. But then there are those who can recognize when they are being given a disservice, but nonetheless loathe The idea of leaving behind the positive things they enjoy. They know that if things continue as they are, then they will inevitably leave, but deep down they're hesitant. So they raise their issues, and hope against hope that the company might actually be paying attention, especially if the majority are saying the same thing. The problem with people criticizing those who were whining, and God knows some people were phrasing their concerns that way, Is that there often seems to be the assumption that if nobody had spoken up and just voted their wallet so to speak, then Microsoft would have gone ahead and released the console as originally intended. But people were voting with their wallets, in the preorders, and I would imagine that spoke out more loudly than any forum post, blog, or email. In light of that, perhaps that is one of the positive things that pre-ordering offers us, and something we haven't adjusted to yet. I think many of us are used to the idea of complaining because we want this to be fixed before it is too late, and fear that if we don't raise the issue, the company might not pay heed. But more and more, in the gaming industry, companies have opportunities to judge through other means what the expected reception of their ideas is going to be, and change it when necessary.

 

[UnnDunn]

You don't matter nearly as much as you think you do, but guys like you yell and whine the loudest. That's why you are said to be so entitled.

If that's what the industry really thinks, if we have reached the point where people are condemning the DEMAND side of the market for stating what they want and/or why they don't like certain offers, then perhaps it is time for the market to crash and start over since neither side is willing to trust the other.

This finger-pointing bullshit is ridiculous; neither side trusts the other nor do they want to listen.

Also:
If the loudest and whiniest gamers don't matter and the industry knows that Then why are they listening at all?

Why did Microsoft flip on the DRM platform for the Xbone?
Why did EA cave to the endless outrage?

What do they fear from the vocal minority if they know they're insignificant?

You think they changed their stances in response to the vocal minority? Don't make me laugh. EA eliminated Online Pass because it wasn't actually making them any money. Microsoft reversed their DRM policies after Jimmy Fallon showed that they wouldn't be able to reach casual gamers with those policies.

 

[Nadia Castle]

I've yet to see any major controversy relating to the games themselves themselves that doesn't feel justified in someway. Games who put down a total of £120 for the Mass Effect series just to have an ending written on the back of a napkin as their hyped reward had every right to feel annoyed. Similarly being upset that Microsoft was trying to make its customers dependent on it rather than vice-versa was disgraceful. Compared to film fans who piss and moan that the Human Torch may be black or comic book fans who denounce series for daring to change 70 years worth of stagnation, gamers are a modest bunch.

When it comes to controversy around gaming CULTURE don't even get me started. I've been to a competitive gaming event where a 10 year old boy was screaming 'F**K YOU YOU F***ING C**T! YOU GAAAAAAY?' at the top of his lungs, but I know there's a million anonymous internet users ready to tell me I should be lynched for pointing out that it's not a good image for gamers. Same with people who dare to question the stagnant macho bull image that image that gaming culture has been infected by who are routinely threatened with rape.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

Let me make a comparison for you. You saw The Dark Knight Rises, and were disappointed in the ending. Do you:

A) Feel upset about it, maybe rant a bit to your friends/online, or

B) Write to Warner Bros., demanding that they redo the ending to the movie at no extra cost to you?

That's where the entitlement comes in. Being disappointed is one thing. If you have a problem with a company or a game, don't buy it. But when gamers start telling companies "This is what we want, do it!" in a way that basically says "We want to tell you how to do your jobs", that is where a line is crossed. The Microsoft outcry was NOT entitlement, mind you, but gamers rightfully expressing displeasure with being told how they are allowed to play their games. How did the point get across, though? Through gamers ranting and petitions? No. It was the media slamming Microsoft, and customers flocking to their competition that showed the error in Microsoft's ways. That is the line that must be drawn. Protesting something en mass that affects the consumer, go for it. Telling video game developers how to do their jobs, stop and think about how it would look if you were to do that to a movie director, or to a band.

 

[Atmos Duality]

You think they changed their stances in response to the vocal minority? Don't make me laugh. EA eliminated Online Pass because it wasn't actually making them any money. Microsoft reversed their DRM policies after Jimmy Fallon showed that they wouldn't be able to reach casual gamers with those policies.

All I see is a big *citation needed* here.
And good job dodging my point out of convenience. At least I'll know what to expect from this point forward.

You aren't the entire market, though. If the industry only listened to forum goers Call of Duty would've been dead years ago, but because Activision followed the stats rather than angry people on the internet they keep selling more than anything ever.

Fun fact: I don't have to be the entire market.

Vocal feedback is consumer feedback too, no matter how much one tries to marginalize it.
Even those stats you refer to are consumer feedback.
You have qualitative vs quantitative, and despite the world's obsession with numbers, you do in fact need both.

My point is that this "entitlement" business seems more like a means of hand waving dissenting consumer feedback under some blanket assumption about "quality control".
Ie, "Oh, they're just entitled brats. Ignore them. Our product is awesome!"

If you dismiss all dissenting criticism it's hard to look bad after all.

Now not all of the feedback is merited; some consumer outrage is outlandish and goes beyond sensibility (like with Mass Effect 3's ending. Boo hoo. Disappointment. It happens. Grow up and move on.)
But not all vocal dissent falls under some convenient "entitlement" argument.

 

[UnnDunn]

You think they changed their stances in response to the vocal minority? Don't make me laugh. EA eliminated Online Pass because it wasn't actually making them any money. Microsoft reversed their DRM policies after Jimmy Fallon showed that they wouldn't be able to reach casual gamers with those policies.

All I see is a big *citation needed* here.

EA says Online Passes weren't worth it [http://www.destructoid.com/ea-says-online-passes-weren-t-worth-the-pr-damage-256243.phtml]

"The amount of money that we made, it didn't replace the amount of frustration we put on our customers and it didn't offset the reputation damage it caused the company. So we said 'it's not worth it,' and so the idea was, look, 'don't do stuff like that anymore.'"

Vocal feedback is consumer feedback too, no matter how much one tries to marginalize it.
Even those stats you refer to are consumer feedback.
You have qualitative vs quantitative, and despite the world's obsession with numbers, you do in fact need both.

Vocal or not, feedback is good when it's constructive. If it isn't constructive, it's just whining.

 

[xorinite]

This post is the very definition of what people mean when they talk about gamers with a sense of entitlement.

Here's a reality check: gaming enthusiasts (the so-called "hardcore gamers") make up a small, shrinking portion of Microsoft's constituency. Casual users, streaming video consumers and others make up a much larger portion than hardcore gamers.

Shelling out for the most expensive dedicated gaming platform seems, to me at least, to be something which would require a certain amount of enthusiasm. It seems rather schizophrenic to release the most expensive dedicated gaming platform if their goal is to court the casuals who just want to play angry birds and watch streaming videos.

The Ipad, for example, is in a much better position to do that. Its cheaper, it has significant cost savings on its central and graphics processors, while remaining well suited to casual games and video streaming.

 

[Vegosiux]

If you have a problem with a company or a game, don't buy it.

Well, that won't fly, you have to settle for the next best thing - not buying the next game from the same company.

Seeing as you have to have bought the game in the first place to know you have a problem with it, unless you fly the Jolly Roger.

I'm sorry but DRM exists because of gamers. It falls solely on our shoulders that DRM exists. The community should carry some of the blame but they don't and hence why they are entitled.

Wait, "solely" or just "partially"? Because I'm all down with accepting that part of the reason for DRM indeed is the gamers, but all of it? Nnnnnnoooooope.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

If you have a problem with a company or a game, don't buy it.

Well, that won't fly, you have to settle for the next best thing - not buying the next game from the same company.

Seeing as you have to have bought the game in the first place to know you have a problem with it, unless you fly the Jolly Roger.

You're right. Misstatement on my part. That still doesn't change the fact that there are other ways to get your point across than demanding that the developers make the game exactly how you want it.

 

[snakeinthereeds]

Going through forums and videos on the whole nextgen XBOX trainwreck was quite amusing to say the least. There were a lot of howling drama queens and smug trashtalkers to behold, but there were also people, quite a lot of them in fact, who actually tried to be reasonable with what and why they think is wrong with the thing that's being showed their way.

In case of the ME3 ending there were lots of people who thought the ones raising storms over it were being babies, but here a significant majority called bullshit, more or less. Even if MS trully only changed their policies on this because everyone was preordering PS4 and they never gave a rat's ass about what constructive or whiny comments were heading their way it still doesn't give them the right to belittle everyone involved in calling them out on their bullshit without being called out on this cheap-ass childish tactic as well.

They're the ones whining now. If people don't like your service and choose to amuse themselves by picking it's flaws appart and move in with the competition instead I fail to see how the provider of such service is justified to go on a whiny tangent about how everyone's being backwards when PS3 network outage, Diablo 3 and SimCity are still fresh in everyone's memories.

Captcha: fair play

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

This post is the very definition of what people mean when they talk about gamers with a sense of entitlement.

I'm going to attempt to crystallize what you're saying here, and if you want to correct me, feel free.

In a nutshell: because I pointed out why the family-share plan was never going to function as you believe it would have, and because I take offense to the idea that any and all complaints leveled against massive corporations like Microsoft are immediately and reliably met with cries of "entitled gamer", I am the very definition of an entitled gamer? You wouldn't point to the hilarious ME3 ending backlash? Or the relatively unwarranted hatred of the DMC reboot? You'd seriously pick me? Are you sure this isn't because you're sore about the imaginary losses inflicted upon you by Microsoft's reversal?

Here's a reality check: gaming enthusiasts (the so-called "hardcore gamers") make up a small, shrinking portion of Microsoft's constituency. Casual users, streaming video consumers and others make up a much larger portion than hardcore gamers. And that's just consumers. Beyond that, as a platform/ecosystem provider, Microsoft has to consider its publishing, retail, manufacturing development partners who play a much larger role in Microsoft's success than gaming enthusiasts ever will.

This is exactly what Microsoft thought, and they were wrong. They thought they could leverage the more ignorant (but no less valid) casual consumer market against the more informed enthusiast market in order to push through anti-consumer policies. Sony capitalized by embracing that same enthusiast market. When the smoke had cleared and the preorders were tallied, Microsoft fucking lost. Their reversal is clear evidence that you don't know what you're talking about. Or rather, you backed the wrong ideology.

You don't matter nearly as much as you think you do, but guys like you yell and whine the loudest. That's why you are said to be so entitled.

From you, I consider this high praise.

Previously, I was more or less detached from the situation because I had no dog in this fight. I own Xbox, PS3, and PC. I planned on buying a PS4 and not an Xbone. Now that MS has changed gears, I might buy an X1 as well. My discussions about MS's policies and features were purely academic - driven by an interest in the cogs at work behind all of the PR spin and the need to suss out for myself what was going on.

But now? I'm just happy you aren't getting what you want. Sure, that's personal. You've really been too much of an apologist for MS's horrible ideology for me to care.

 

[Atmos Duality]

EA says Online Passes weren't worth it [http://www.destructoid.com/ea-says-online-passes-weren-t-worth-the-pr-damage-256243.phtml]

"The amount of money that we made, it didn't replace the amount of frustration we put on our customers and it didn't offset the reputation damage it caused the company. So we said 'it's not worth it,' and so the idea was, look, 'don't do stuff like that anymore.'"

Thank you. Really, you're probably the first person in over a solid month to actually use citation on these forums when I've requested a source. At least, someone who isn't writing for the website anyway.

But I do find it curious that in the quote you cite, they mention reputation.
How would they know if their reputation (something that's not really quantifiable) is being damaged if not for vocal complaint?

Bad sales alone doesn't won't do it; there's all sorts of stuff that fails without damaging a company's reputation.

If they are considering vocal complaint, that implies they do at least consider complaints.
Well, either that or they're lying and are just mentioning reputation to look like they care.

Wouldn't surprise me.

Vocal or not, feedback is good when it's constructive. If it isn't constructive, it's just whining.

If by "constructive" you mean "has a logical basis" then yes.
Mindless ranting about subjective matter isn't what I call "constructive" or logical; again, like with most of the response to ME3's ending.

But at the same time, I've seen a lot of people throwing entitlement at logical criticism too; usually in blanket arguments or as buzzword-trolling. I saw "entitlement" as a response to Sarkeesian's latest video, FFS.

In relation to the Xbone (more timely): Most of the backlash wasn't entitlement.
I'm sure there were some lunatic fringe naysayers out there who did cross that line, but best I can tell, the stronger response to the Xbone was not dictating what Microsoft must do but going to their competition on the PS4 and PC because of what they were doing then.

 

[rasputin0009]

I'm sorry but DRM exists because of gamers. It falls solely on our shoulders that DRM exists. The community should carry some of the blame but they don't and hence why they are entitled.

"I pirated the game because they didn't make it how I wanted it and don't believe it deserves my money".

But the gamer still wants to play it. It still cost money to develop and produce. It's absurd that this is prevalent in our community. You can't say I deem this shit then want it.

"I pirated the game because I don't think it's worth $60".

I think a Kia Rio is flaming pile of alloy/plastic poo, but you don't see me expecting to drive around in one free of charge.

Pirates don't need reasons to pirate, they'll just pirate anyway. They are never going to buy a game so why do publishers punish the paying customers? There is literally no reason. Pirates laugh at DRM and will find a way around it. DRM is abso-fucking-lutely useless at stopping pirates. So, no, consumers aren't to blame for DRM.