Entitlement

[lumenadducere]

16 different endings, according to Casey Hudson in pre-release interviews. If you're willing to be gracious with the ending, there's about 6. Where are the other 10?

Mac Walters saying (as an example) whether you spared or killed the Rachni has a huge impact in ME3, especially the ending of the game. Spoiler: it doesn't.

One of the writers revealing that the ending was written solely by Mac Walters (the lead writer) and wasn't peer-reviewed like the entire rest of the game. It was just Walters and Hudson tucked away in a room writing together.

That's where the artistic integrity argument falls short for me. If the entire rest of the game was written as a collaborative effort by the team and went through peer review, why is it acceptable for the ending to be hijacked by 2 people? Doesn't that short-change the entire rest of the writing team and compromise their artistic values? There's a reason things take a sudden turn at the end - and if you haven't gotten there and don't know what happens, OP, you'll be able to tell where the sudden shift happens. If anything changing things from a collaborative work (full writing team) into a 2-man job is what's compromised the artistic integrity of Mass Effect, not the fan outcry.

And BioWare has stated that they aren't changing the endings, they're just adding more info to flesh them out. That's it. So it's not like they're compromising their ideals or anything.

 

[42]

you people have absolutely no sense of risk. Buying a video game has the same risk you had when buying a music album in the 70's, and the same risk when you watch a movie today. no one is adventurous anymore.

Which is funny, because I don't remember any of the advertisement being about the nature of the ending of the game. Simply that the trilogy was ending.

MY GOD THANK GOD SOMEONE BESIDES ME NOTICED.
and theres another thing. at no point did any of the advertise if the ending would be affected by the choices in-game. so far no one has been able to provide evidence. or a link.

 

[Agayek]

Can you get specific? Remember that people selling their games will have an optimistic view.

Again, no spoilers. Hate to be a hard on about it, but...

Also, don't judge an entire trilogy around 5 minutes of crap. I don't like a lot of the ME trilogy, but I'm still a fan. You have to consider everything.

I don't have links handy, as I can't be fucked to find them again (if you want them, look up the compilation threads on BSN about it), but what he's referring to is the multiple instances Hudson or Walters said "There won't be a rote ending that everyone gets, you won't get an A, B, C choice ending". That's not an exact quote, but that's the gist of what they said. In the 2-3 months leading up to the game's release, there were explicit promises of how the game would end, but those promises turned out to be blatant lies.

From that perspective, there very much valid legal reasons to demand either changes to the game or full refunds to everyone who asks.

Second: about the 'you don't ask for a movie to change its ending', movies don't have a system in place to deliver DLC and if they did, it would devalue the strongest way to experience them: in a theater.

Actually, they already do that. Case in point, "Director's Cut" editions and the like. The best example is Blade Runner, because each different version is dramatically different in themes.

 

[Don Savik]

Whoever first used the "entitlement" word to get the entire gamer community bitching at each other while holding guns at each others heads, bravo.

That man needs a cookie.

 

[Agayek]

I always hear people defend themselves against accusations of undeserved feelings of self-entitlement with "If you bought a product because it was advertised as being one thing and it turned out to be someone else, you'd be angry!"

Which is funny, because I don't remember any of the advertisement being about the nature of the ending of the game. Simply that the trilogy was ending.

No, people seem to have imagined what they wanted the ending to be, and are upset because it didn't live up to their standards. Guess what? That's your fault, not Bioware's. And don't act like them building up some amount of hype about how big and epic this final game in the trilogy was going to be in any way entitles you to act personally insulted that it didn't live up to your expectations: Every single trilogy does this, ever. Whether or not it actually turns out to be good or not is pretty much luck. If you choose to get so personally invested in a game that people actually threaten to sue due to their expectations being let down, then there's no easy way to put this: you have a fucking problem.

Actually, the devs said explicitly several times in pre-release interviews and whatnot (hint: this is advertisement) that the end of the game would not be exactly what it was. These interviews played a not-insignificant part in many people's purchase. Thus, it's perfectly reasonable to be upset about false advertising or whatever.

The biggest part of the outrage is simply because the endings did not meet the quality established in the rest of the series, and most of that complaining needs to die down tbph, but the BBB suit against EA/Bioware is actually perfectly valid and I hope they win.

 

[Da Orky Man]

If I am promised a product that does X, I'm entitled to a product that does X, otherwise I'm entitled to returning it for a refund. If I am promised a product that does not do Y, I am entitled to a product that does not do Y, otherwise I'm entitled to returning it for a refund.

Simple as, I'm entitled to what I was promised I'd get.

In any industry, no matter what product is concerned. And as a consumer, I have my rights. One of my rights is to not have to "suck it up and take it", I am entitled to standing up for myself and actively - and reactively - fight against being ripped off.

That said, this was a general statement, because frankly, I've talked about the specific case of ME3 long enough and I'm not continuing that charade.

Without going into spoiler territory, what were you specifically promised (with a link, preferably) that did not live up to said promise?

He's talking about the developer interviews that talked about choices in the games, as well as endings in the games, and how those developer interviews turned out to be false.

Can you get specific? Remember that people selling their games will have an optimistic view.

Again, no spoilers. Hate to be a hard on about it, but...

Also, don't judge an entire trilogy around 5 minutes of crap. I don't like a lot of the ME trilogy, but I'm still a fan. You have to consider everything.

http://social.bioware.com/318304/blog/212060/

 

[Xenedus]

you people have absolutely no sense of risk. Buying a video game has the same risk you had when buying a music album in the 70's, and the same risk when you watch a movie today. no one is adventurous anymore.

Which is funny, because I don't remember any of the advertisement being about the nature of the ending of the game. Simply that the trilogy was ending.

MY GOD THANK GOD SOMEONE BESIDES ME NOTICED.
and theres another thing. at no point did any of the advertise if the ending would be affected by the choices in-game. so far no one has been able to provide evidence. or a link.

I put a link to a thread with a collection of links to quotes from interviews... obviously you didn't read it.

 

[Rawne1980]

Without going into spoiler territory, what were you specifically promised (with a link, preferably) that did not live up to said promise?

We were promised our choices would matter.

We were promised an end to a story.

We were promised answers.

We were promised multiplayer wouldn't affect single player.

Without spoiling any plot points (unless you ask).....

Not one single choice made in previous games actually made a difference. The only thing that changed was a small scene, nothing actually affected the story. The story hasn't ended, we didn't get any answers.

As for multiplayer, you can screw up your game royally and fix it all with a few hours in multiplayer to get your war assets. In fact, if you follow a certain path then the only way to get enough war assets is to dabble with multiplayer.

As for this whole "games are art so you shouldn't complain, it kills artistic integrity", bollocks.

I'm not paying for art i'm paying for a product. If that product turns out to be shite then i'm going to complain.

 

[Joccaren]

Uhh. No. Artistic Integrity defence is BS. I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

Any good artist shows their work to others, and when they get negative reactions ask 'What can I do to fix it?'
Arrogant artists who care more about themselves than their work get negative reactions and say 'Well, I don't want to sacrifice my artistic integrity. Why are you bullying me?'

Artistic Integrity is basically saying that the final decision on what happens with an artists work lies with that artist - and that is still 100% true, even if they change the endings. They decided to accept the feedback and change the endings.
Believe it or not, a LOT of famous artistic works have been rewritten or edited to appeal to different audiences, because the artists cared about their work and how others saw it, and wanted people to like it. Shakespeare had multiple versions of some of his plays for different groups of people. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle retconed one of his books, and bought Sherlock Holmes back to life due to fan demand.

The next thing is, ME is commissioned art. That means certain expectations are placed upon it. If it does not deliver, the purchaser is more than entitled to ask for it to be changed, or to walk away with their money. In this case, its a bit different - EA is the funding for it, but we fund EA. The final say of how successful the product is lies with the audience.

Now, if I want art, I'll go to the National Art Gallery. I want entertainment, and a game, and I didn't get that with ME3s ending. I'm more than entitled to tell Bioware where to shove it, and return my copy until they change the ending.
Their artistic integrity is still intact, but they'll lose my - and others - business. That is what they care more about - the business. We haven't strongarmed anything by saying we won't buy more Bioware games, and will return ME3. If you say we have, you're saying Bioware is entitled to our sales, and that is wrong on so many levels.

 

[KingofMadCows]

You actually can petition film makers, authors, and TV writers to change their story. It has happened in the past and it has worked.

And it is extremely naive to think that the writers have some kind of set vision that is immune to change from outside factors. Writers are already affected by things like deadlines, production costs, suggestions from producers, advertisers, and publishers long before they even release their product to the audience.

Movie studios have test screenings and game developers have beta/play testers. For example, the test audience didn't like the ending of Terminator 2 so James Cameron shot a new ending. How is it that different for the writer to change their work because of reactions from test audience compared to the writer changing their work because of reactions from the general audience? Heck, the whole point of the test audience is that they're a small sample of the general audience.

Also, the problem with Mass Effect 3's ending isn't just that it's stupid or that it doesn't make any sense or that it's full of plot holes. It completely runs counter to the entire franchise structurally and artistically.

Look at Planescape: Torment, it is a very layered and nuanced game that was always meant to be open to interpretation. The players are supposed to speculate about the true identity of The Nameless One and the crime he committed. There are hints and clue that support many different theories about The Nameless One's identity. So it wouldn't make any sense for Chris Avellone to change the ending to reveal The Nameless One's original identity, even if everyone wanted it, because that runs counter to everything else in the game.

Mass Effect is not like that. Mass Effect is a very straightforward series that is all about fantasy fulfillment for the audience. The story is written to play out more or less the way that the fans want. Mass Effect's plots, themes, characters, and intentions that are not very layered or obscured and they are not very open to interpretation. The developers even said that the ending would be conclusive and not leave lingering questions. It doesn't make any sense for 99% of the series to be like Flash Gordon and then suddenly last 1% clumsily morphs into Blade Runner.

 

[Tilted_Logic]

You can't petition filmmakers to change endings. You can't petition author's or TV writers, either. Why should games get this treatment?

Sure you can; it's been done before.

There are plenty of movies out there with alternate endings, television shows with plot changes based around fan appeasement and going against long-held story plans.

In this day and age fans are part of the creative process, if Bioware takes fan input during production and story (which they do), what's the difference to them changing the story pre-release to post?

Can we stop with analogies that make no sense?

They make perfect sense. Bioware promised the fans at the end they'd have options not limited to ___ ___ & ___. Those were exactly the options we got. If you're promised you'll get one thing, then given something entirely different, you have a right to question it.

Sucking it up and accepting something that so blatantly goes against every promise, every statement and even the very essence of what a game has been to that point is not acceptable.

Artistic integrity is one thing, but if we all shut down and ignore the fact the ending was so off base, who's to say Bioware/EA won't pull this stunt again? They have to be held accountable. You build a reputation, make promises, create a fantastic series, then blow it all back in our faces at the most pivotal moment? You're damn sure we have a right to make ourselves heard. If not in order to change things, just to ensure this sort of nonsense isn't allowed to go unchecked in the future.

It'd be like ignoring the fact your soup has a host of dead flies at the bottom, just because the rest of it was great, the resturant has a good reputation, and you can just 'suck it up' and move on. So either you bring it up with the waiter to ensure it doesn't become a recurring problem, or you ignore it. You choose to ignore it? So does everyone else. So the restaurant eventually comes to the conclusion that nobody cares if there are bugs in the food.

It's another 'nonsensical analogy', but it proves a point. Mass Effect was made for us, it was made to be enjoyed and appreciated by us, the fans. It's artistic visually, the story is beautiful, the characters are full of life. I don't know what the hell counts as art anymore, but demanding higher quality from a company that proved they can handle the task for 98% of the game isn't out of line.

It's their choice to change it, but it's our right to say they should.

 

[42]

you people have absolutely no sense of risk. Buying a video game has the same risk you had when buying a music album in the 70's, and the same risk when you watch a movie today. no one is adventurous anymore.

Which is funny, because I don't remember any of the advertisement being about the nature of the ending of the game. Simply that the trilogy was ending.

MY GOD THANK GOD SOMEONE BESIDES ME NOTICED.
and theres another thing. at no point did any of the advertise if the ending would be affected by the choices in-game. so far no one has been able to provide evidence. or a link.

I put a link to a thread with a collection of links to quotes from interviews... obviously you didn't read it.

that isn't advertising. those were a bunch of interviews. Interviews fall under PR. the reason being is because they would make sure the interviewers would be provided with information that would be relevant to the topic of the interview. Advertising is showing it.

 

[DeadYorick]

Gamer entitlement is a false term made by publishers to try and make gamers feel bad for complaining when they don't like the 60-120$ purchase they made. It specifically targets fanboys so they get on the defensive and continue purchasing their products. "Oh well you didn't like that issue because it was bad, but because you have entitlement issues. Yeah. So keep buying our DLC"

It doesn't exist. People are entitled to a properly made product that is properly advertised, when it doesn't they have the full right to complain about it and not purchase more from that company. If they are stupid and continue to buy from that company then they have entitlement issues, but if they are smart and don't then they are enacting their proper rights as consumers. It's how capitalism works.

People don't call film critics "film entitlests" when they don't like a movie that they paid for just because it had a big glaring issue or it was shoddily made, when the trailer said otherwise.

Also as to the argument of artistic integrity it's bullshit. Bethesda did this with Fallout 3 when they made Broken Steel, no one swore at them and called them sellouts. People have made alternate ending DLC before and it has always been seen with approval. The only reason it isn't now is because of how bad Mass Effect 3's endings were and how much support the DLC has.

I'm not even going to get into the argument of "this is a business first and an art form second."

 

[Candidus]

If I am promised a product that does X, I'm entitled to a product that does X, otherwise I'm entitled to returning it for a refund. If I am promised a product that does not do Y, I am entitled to a product that does not do Y, otherwise I'm entitled to returning it for a refund.

Simple as, I'm entitled to what I was promised I'd get.

In any industry, no matter what product is concerned. And as a consumer, I have my rights. One of my rights is to not have to "suck it up and take it", I am entitled to standing up for myself and actively - and reactively - fight against being ripped off.

That said, this was a general statement, because frankly, I've talked about the specific case of ME3 long enough and I'm not continuing that charade.

Without going into spoiler territory, what were you specifically promised (with a link, preferably) that did not live up to said promise?

Here's the full list.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10056886/1

Candid delivers.
A comprehensive list of a stinking pack of lies. All Bioware, all ME3.
Enjoy.

 

[iLogical]

Agreed entitlement in the way people are calming doesn't it exist, the kind of "Entitlement" that is bad is the one where little kiddies pirate a game because they thing they are entitled to play it even though they cant afford it. There is also the other kind of entitlement where people think they are entitled to get what they have paid for, and if they believe that it doesn't fulfill those requirements they they do have the right to complain. I personally did not buy ME3 after those DLC shenanigans, and personally think it is just as likely that EA chopped off the actual ending so they could sell it as DLC after everyone complained at how bad the one they left it with was.

 

[Syzygy23]

you people have absolutely no sense of risk. Buying a video game has the same risk you had when buying a music album in the 70's, and the same risk when you watch a movie today. no one is adventurous anymore.

Which is funny, because I don't remember any of the advertisement being about the nature of the ending of the game. Simply that the trilogy was ending.

MY GOD THANK GOD SOMEONE BESIDES ME NOTICED.
and theres another thing. at no point did any of the advertise if the ending would be affected by the choices in-game. so far no one has been able to provide evidence. or a link.

Official Mass Effect Website
http://masseffect.com/about/story/

?Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome.?
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Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/02/28/mass-effect-3-mac-walters/

?[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.?
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Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/03/05/qa-mass-effect-3s-mac-walters-on-how-the-game-tries-to-reach-all-audiences/

?I?m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are optimal for different people?
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Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/334598/interviews/mass-effect-3-weve-brought-back-a-lot-of-what-was-missing-in-me2/

?And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as much as we are anyway.?
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Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazine.co.uk/interview/mass-effect-3-has-many-different-endings/

?There are many different endings. We wouldn?t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can?t say any more than that??
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Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-02-bioware-mass-effect-3-ending-will-make-some-people-angry

?Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens."

Whether you're happy or angry at the ending, know this: it is an ending.
BioWare will not do a "Lost" and leave fans with more questions than
answers after finishing the game, Gamble promised.

?You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people.?

?Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you didn't make?

Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2011/04/28/casey-hudson-interview-mass-effect-3.aspx

?For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations.?
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Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.com/2012/03/02/casey-hudson-bioware-co-created-mass-effect-3-with-the-sometimes-cranky-fans-interview/

?Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get some closure, a great ending. I think they?re going to get that.?

?Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers, being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an end.?

Interviewer: ?So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise??

Hudson: ?Um? You know, at this point, I think we?re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.?
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Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/01/10/mass1525-effect-3-cas5ey-fdsafdhudson-interviewae.aspx?PostPageIndex=2
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Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] ?Is that same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3??

Hudson: ?Yeah, and I?d say much more so, because we have the ability to build the endings out in a way that we don?t have to worry about eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we?re taking into account so many decisions that you?ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It?s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.?

?We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player decide what your story is.?
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Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1027650/mass_effect_3_reapers_can_win_bioware.html

Mass Effect 3 will shake up the player's moral choices more than ever before, even going so far as allowing the Reapers to win the battle for Earth, according to BioWare's community representative Mike Gamble.
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Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer.com/features/1229983/mass_effect_3_developer_interview_shepard_coop_story_details.html

"Of course you don?t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you?ll still get all the same endings and same information, it?s just a totally different way of playing"
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Casey Hudson (Director)
http://gamescatalyst.com/2012/03/casey-hudson-kinect-the-future-of-interactive-stories/

?The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.?
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Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/336331/interviews/mass-effect-3-we-cant-go-on-holiday-our-dlc-is-really-good/?page=2

?There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.?
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Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
Issue 108 of 360Gamer (Hardcopy only, not available online)

When asked about the science of the game being plausible

"From very early on we wanted the science of the universe to be plausible. Obviously it's set in the future so you have to make some leaps of faith but we didn't want it to be just magic in space."
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Enough evidence for you?

So, y'know...

Spoiler

 

[Revolutionary]

I feel I'm entitled to come to the Escapist to find threads that aren't all about bloody MASS EFFECT 3.

If I had a wish, I'd wish Mass Effect never existed, so we could finally stop seeing thread 1333: Mass Effect 3's ending wasn't wanted, followed by 1334: You don't deserve a better ending, followed by more Mass Effect 3 crap.


Honestly, Mass Effect 3 has engulfed this site more then My Little Pony ever did.

Wait 'till we get avatars about ME3's endings.

Well Said. I mean I thought the ending was a mess and it needs yo be explained but...Geez. Enough with the threads about it.