Entitlement

[Falcon123]

So a single developer that has a very close relationship with its fans did a complete one 180 on it's promises and then caved on modifying their product when it failed to live up to promised features. Not hype but things that were blatantly publicly promised. That isn't entitlement, that's saying you fucked up we want this fixed. At this rate I don't want games to be considered art, I pretty much want them to be all entertainment. Calling them art won't suddenly make them better, not being art won't make them suddenly shitty and regardless of what they're called people with a vision will still make "Art games" whether they qualify as art or not. No matter what they are they will stay the same, some will be crap, some will be awesome and quite frankly the ability to make crappy ones into something awesome by bitching about them is pretty sweet. Fuck artistic integrity bring on the awesome games.

Now, some people like me care about artistic integrity a lot, but even if you don't, I can't think consider this new ending a good idea. Think about it. Bioware is going to release "ME3: A Better Ending" as DLC, which means you'll be paying $10-$15 for an ending you already "deserved". If you buy this to make your game "better", then Bioware is getting $70-$75 of your dollars for what is essentially a $60 game (because what you will be buying is what you were promised to begin with), and they actually make a much higher profit margin (because developers reap a much higher percentage of DLC earnings).

So what's going to happen? Game developers will officially have a precedent that it is financially better for them to screw up the ending and get gamers to pay for it for DLC because they will make more money from it and people will pay it. If nothing else, you can't possibly tell me that getting one game to be slightly "better" because the last ten minutes will potentially make more sense (it's still impossible that they'll be able to make enough endings that everyone will be happy) is worth setting the precedent that will affect the consumer/developer relationship for years to come.

 

[Falcon123]

you people have absolutely no sense of risk. Buying a video game has the same risk you had when buying a music album in the 70's, and the same risk when you watch a movie today. no one is adventurous anymore.

Which is funny, because I don't remember any of the advertisement being about the nature of the ending of the game. Simply that the trilogy was ending.

MY GOD THANK GOD SOMEONE BESIDES ME NOTICED.
and theres another thing. at no point did any of the advertise if the ending would be affected by the choices in-game. so far no one has been able to provide evidence. or a link.

I put a link to a thread with a collection of links to quotes from interviews... obviously you didn't read it.

that isn't advertising. those were a bunch of interviews. Interviews fall under PR. the reason being is because they would make sure the interviewers would be provided with information that would be relevant to the topic of the interview. Advertising is showing it.

That is the most disingenuous statement I have read regarding the ME3 Endings debate as yet.

So you think that because a particular statement is 'PR', and not 'advertising' is OK to be misleading?

Bullshit. Any statement, interview, remark, or otherwise communication released by a company hyping a product should be held against the final product - be it PR or advertising.

By your logic, it means that a company can send out spokespersons to talk on TV talk shows, radio shows, podcasts and where-ever else to basically promise that a given product will not only blow you away, but will also wash your dishes, paint your walls, and fellate you on a nightly basis - and be justified in doing so.

What utter nonsense.

Companies *have* been found guilty and liable for misleading advertising in the past, and I am hopeful that there is a respectable chance that it'll happen again now.

Yes but Bioware didn't mislead you. They made a really good game. you've let hype surrounding it get to you. and everyone is just upset about the ending. And isn't that what Companies do anyway? Its all about selling the product, and selling the most amount of products. and since ME3's being treated like a product that can be changed, then i suppose yes you are all in your rights to say you were disappointed in the product. guy i give up whats the point. People just won't let it go. It's just a fucking ending. The only thing thats the problem is that Mass Effect 3 fell victim to Number 2 Peak Trilogy Syndrome.

Look at those quotes from their interviews... It's pretty obvious they lied. This isn't a case of the dev giving vague answers to questions this is flat out lies there really is no way around it. Just look up the quotes from their interviews they have been posted at least 3 times in this thread already.

Quotes from interviews are not guarantees; they're marketing ploys. Hell, they're not even that. Maybe Bioware really believes they gave you enough choices and answered enough questions. Maybe they changed their mind after the interview and didn't feel the need to give away the fact that they really wanted gamers to get to a certain point regardless of their decisions beforehand.

Peter Molyneaux said God knows how many things in interviews about his Fable games that never came to fruition, but people never got into an uproar like this. Look back at his quote before Fable 3, then play the game (rent it; it's not worth the buy). Does it live up to his promises? Hell no! It fails to hit most of them. But apparently that's just Molyneaux, so it's ok. I find this severely hypocritical that people let promises other developers make all the time, but because the Mass Effect series is actually good , breaking these promises might as well be a criminal offense the way people are taking it.

This is the saddest case of entitlement I've ever seen. This is a game that everyone agrees was nearly perfect for 99% of it. Hell, take away the ending, and everyone would be calling it the game of the year. But because people don't like the ending, Bioware's become the worst developers ever, even though a bad ME game is still better than most games out there.

Don't get me wrong; I get it. The ending sucked. Everyone's talked about why. But seriously? People need to get over it. Enjoy the game for what it is; there's still a ton to enjoy. Go write some fan fiction if you really feel a need for a definitive ending. And if you're really that offended by it, don't buy into Bioware's promises next time and have them prove that their next game is what they promise it will be. They'll learn the lesson when you vote with your wallet. This...just makes a lot of people seem really spoiled, even if it started from a valid place at some point

 

[Falcon123]

Also as to the argument of artistic integrity it's bullshit. Bethesda did this with Fallout 3 when they made Broken Steel, no one swore at them and called them sellouts.

Here's a pretty good metaphor I saw on another forum:

An artist offers to paint you a picture of an apple if you pay him for it. He extols the many virtues of this apple picture repeatedly, and at great length, for months at a time. He makes you some very clear, totally unambiguous promises about what you can expect from his apple picture.

You're convinced, and so you agree to buy it. Maybe you paid for it a few months in advance, because you've enjoyed some of the other fruit paintings he's made in the past.

At last, your apple picture is finished. You pick it up, take it home, unwrap it...and it's a picture of a banana. And it's not a painting, either. When you examine it closely, you notice that it appears to have been hastily scribbled on a soiled Arby's napkin with a pink highlighter.

And when you complain that the artist did not deliver the apple picture you'd expected, he starts yelling, "Artistic integrity! ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!"

Even if the banana picture you received was the finest banana picture the world had ever seen, even if it had lovingly and painstakingly rendered on canvas by the hand of the God of Produce himself--and that is clearly not the case with this banana picture--the fact is, you didn't want a banana picture. It's not what you paid for. It's not what the artist spent all those months promising you. You have every right in the world to complain about the artist's work.

Frankly, you have every right to wonder if he has any integrity at all, artistic or otherwise.

And if, after you complain, he chooses to do nothing about it, you have every right to take your business to some other artist.

You're right. You do have the right to take your business to another artist. But let's make this clear; 99% of ME3 is great, even according to the most aggravated complainers. You didn't get a banana when you were promised an apple. You got an apple that the artist decided to put a worm into (a definitive ending that didn't have player choice) instead of an apple without one (the multiple ending scenario). The artist wanted to say something with the painting, and he felt that adding the worm was the best way to do that, even if it didn't work. You didn't want the worm, you may hate the worms, but he still have you an apple (the majority of the game was on point Mass Effect with the tightest gameplay the series has ever seen and a mostly great story until the ending).

Some people are going to appreciate the artist's vision to include the worm in the painting. Some won't. Those who don't have decided they don't like that artist's vision. That's fine. Sell the piece, and don't give the artist any more of your money. But the artist made a choice that he was entitled to make. You're entitled to hate it, and entitled to not buy from him anymore. But paying him to redo the painting without the worm has removed his artistic vision, and financially incentivized him to screw up in the future so that he gets double the commission. I don't think that's what you really want, is it?

 

[coolbeans21]

Honestly, when people say they have rights as a consumer I just get sick with the world. If £40 means that much to you, read a fucking review before spending.

Really? Like all those 10/10, 9.5/10 reviews that were thrown out by the gaming press with no mention of the ending fiasco, that'll help wont it?

Think about what you just said "when people say they have rights as a consumer I just get sick with the world"

If you choose not to excercise your rights as a consumer, thats your choice, but don't demonize those who do.

If you don't excercise your rights, you will lose them, look at the discussion regarding the ME3 ending, you've a large number of people who think its ok for developers to lie to customers, because its not lying, its "hype".

 

[Shinigami214]

Bioware is going to release "ME3: A Better Ending" as DLC, which means you'll be paying $10-$15 for an ending you already "deserved". If you buy this to make your game "better", then Bioware is getting $70-$75 of your dollars for what is essentially a $60 game (because what you will be buying is what you were promised to begin with), and they actually make a much higher profit margin (because developers reap a much higher percentage of DLC earnings).

So what's going to happen? Game developers will officially have a precedent that it is financially better for them to screw up the ending and get gamers to pay for it for DLC because they will make more money from it and people will pay it. If nothing else, you can't possibly tell me that getting one game to be slightly "better" because the last ten minutes will potentially make more sense (it's still impossible that they'll be able to make enough endings that everyone will be happy) is worth setting the precedent that will affect the consumer/developer relationship for years to come.

Oh no.

So far I've been holding out on buying ME3 until I see how this plays out.

But if Bioware/EA think that they can come out with some 'its-ok-guys-we've-fixed-it' DLC and put a price tag on it, not only will I not buy ME3 or its DLC, but I'm pretty much done with Bioware/EA products across the board from now until the foreseeable future.

 

[anthony87]

at no point did any of the advertise if the ending would be affected by the choices in-game. so far no one has been able to provide evidence.

Evidence?

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg

How about the fact that the ending of Mass Effect 1 can differ depending on your choices in-game?

Or how about the fact that the ending of Mass Effect 2 can differ depending on your choices in-game?

 

[Xenedus]

at no point did any of the advertise if the ending would be affected by the choices in-game. so far no one has been able to provide evidence.

Evidence?

How about the fact that the ending of Mass Effect 1 can differ depending on your choices in-game?

Or how about the fact that the ending of Mass Effect 2 can differ depending on your choices in-game?

I wouldn't waste your time. If this person hasn't seen the MULTIPLE quotes from devs posted all over this thread they are either trolling you or willfully ignorant or mentally deficient or some combination of the 3 and in any case not worth your time at this point.

 

[coolbeans21]

at no point did any of the advertise if the ending would be affected by the choices in-game. so far no one has been able to provide evidence.

Evidence?

How about the fact that the ending of Mass Effect 1 can differ depending on your choices in-game?

Or how about the fact that the ending of Mass Effect 2 can differ depending on your choices in-game?

I wouldn't waste your time. If this person hasn't seen the MULTIPLE quotes from devs posted all over this thread they are either trolling you or willfully ignorant or mentally deficient or some combination of the 3 and in any case not worth your time at this point.

Apparently Dev quotes dont count, they're just "hype" so have no requirement to be remotely factual.

Only advertising which appears in Nintendo power counts

 

[him over there]

So a single developer that has a very close relationship with its fans did a complete one 180 on it's promises and then caved on modifying their product when it failed to live up to promised features. Not hype but things that were blatantly publicly promised. That isn't entitlement, that's saying you fucked up we want this fixed. At this rate I don't want games to be considered art, I pretty much want them to be all entertainment. Calling them art won't suddenly make them better, not being art won't make them suddenly shitty and regardless of what they're called people with a vision will still make "Art games" whether they qualify as art or not. No matter what they are they will stay the same, some will be crap, some will be awesome and quite frankly the ability to make crappy ones into something awesome by bitching about them is pretty sweet. Fuck artistic integrity bring on the awesome games.

Now, some people like me care about artistic integrity a lot, but even if you don't, I can't think consider this new ending a good idea. Think about it. Bioware is going to release "ME3: A Better Ending" as DLC, which means you'll be paying $10-$15 for an ending you already "deserved". If you buy this to make your game "better", then Bioware is getting $70-$75 of your dollars for what is essentially a $60 game (because what you will be buying is what you were promised to begin with), and they actually make a much higher profit margin (because developers reap a much higher percentage of DLC earnings).

So what's going to happen? Game developers will officially have a precedent that it is financially better for them to screw up the ending and get gamers to pay for it for DLC because they will make more money from it and people will pay it. If nothing else, you can't possibly tell me that getting one game to be slightly "better" because the last ten minutes will potentially make more sense (it's still impossible that they'll be able to make enough endings that everyone will be happy) is worth setting the precedent that will affect the consumer/developer relationship for years to come.

Except there really isn't a precendent regarding the consumer creator relationship being made. The consumer will continue to hold all of the power, the creator is reliant on us. The endings will be worth whatever we are willing to pay for them. If developers try this pathetically underhanded and transparent tactic hopefully people will be smart enough not to buy it. Also I wasn't encouraging changing the endings, that seems far too little too late and the fact that we can't just get over it is pretty lame. I was just saying that I would rather have devs sacrifice their integrity in order to cater to the audience.

 

[Falcon123]

Bioware is going to release "ME3: A Better Ending" as DLC, which means you'll be paying $10-$15 for an ending you already "deserved". If you buy this to make your game "better", then Bioware is getting $70-$75 of your dollars for what is essentially a $60 game (because what you will be buying is what you were promised to begin with), and they actually make a much higher profit margin (because developers reap a much higher percentage of DLC earnings).

So what's going to happen? Game developers will officially have a precedent that it is financially better for them to screw up the ending and get gamers to pay for it for DLC because they will make more money from it and people will pay it. If nothing else, you can't possibly tell me that getting one game to be slightly "better" because the last ten minutes will potentially make more sense (it's still impossible that they'll be able to make enough endings that everyone will be happy) is worth setting the precedent that will affect the consumer/developer relationship for years to come.

Oh no.

So far I've been holding out on buying ME3 until I see how this plays out.

But if Bioware/EA think that they can come out with some 'its-ok-guys-we've-fixed-it' DLC and put a price tag on it, not only will I not buy ME3 or its DLC, but I'm pretty much done with Bioware/EA products across the board from now until the foreseeable future.

I'm in the exact same boat, and I couldn't agree with you more. If the DLC isn't free, I won't be able to buy Bioware games in good conscience (though I will say this: as much as I want to blame EA for this...we really can't. EA handles the publishing. Developers are in charge of DLC. They have a very hands-off approach with Bioware, so it's unlikely they deserve any of the blame for this particular fiasco)

 

[Fr]anc[is]

Skip to 10:50

TLR EA/Bioware doesn't give a shit about you, they are not your friend, they are trying to suck every dollar they can out of you. Stop telling them it is ok to be lazy and mess up at the last second and/or deliberately chop the ending off to sell to you later. Stop telling them that they are immune to criticism as long as some paid off internet journalists throw out a few keywords like 'art' or 'entitlement'. They do not need you to stick up for them, stop defending them.

 

[Falcon123]

So a single developer that has a very close relationship with its fans did a complete one 180 on it's promises and then caved on modifying their product when it failed to live up to promised features. Not hype but things that were blatantly publicly promised. That isn't entitlement, that's saying you fucked up we want this fixed. At this rate I don't want games to be considered art, I pretty much want them to be all entertainment. Calling them art won't suddenly make them better, not being art won't make them suddenly shitty and regardless of what they're called people with a vision will still make "Art games" whether they qualify as art or not. No matter what they are they will stay the same, some will be crap, some will be awesome and quite frankly the ability to make crappy ones into something awesome by bitching about them is pretty sweet. Fuck artistic integrity bring on the awesome games.

Now, some people like me care about artistic integrity a lot, but even if you don't, I can't think consider this new ending a good idea. Think about it. Bioware is going to release "ME3: A Better Ending" as DLC, which means you'll be paying $10-$15 for an ending you already "deserved". If you buy this to make your game "better", then Bioware is getting $70-$75 of your dollars for what is essentially a $60 game (because what you will be buying is what you were promised to begin with), and they actually make a much higher profit margin (because developers reap a much higher percentage of DLC earnings).

So what's going to happen? Game developers will officially have a precedent that it is financially better for them to screw up the ending and get gamers to pay for it for DLC because they will make more money from it and people will pay it. If nothing else, you can't possibly tell me that getting one game to be slightly "better" because the last ten minutes will potentially make more sense (it's still impossible that they'll be able to make enough endings that everyone will be happy) is worth setting the precedent that will affect the consumer/developer relationship for years to come.

Except there really isn't a precendent regarding the consumer creator relationship being made. The consumer will continue to hold all of the power, the creator is reliant on us. The endings will be worth whatever we are willing to pay for them. If developers try this pathetically underhanded and transparent tactic hopefully people will be smart enough not to buy it. Also I wasn't encouraging changing the endings, that seems far too little too late and the fact that we can't just get over it is pretty lame. I was just saying that I would rather have devs sacrifice their integrity in order to cater to the audience.

I guess whether one believes devs should sacrifice integrity to make their audience happy is directly related to whether you see games as art and to what degree that matters to you. I'd much rather keep the devs artistic vision intact, even if it didn't work (and in this case in most certainly didn't) because next time, it might, and allowing creators to create the games they wish gives them the ability to make more artistically and mentally stimulating games that are also fun. I don't know. To me, that's just more important than giving one game a potentially better ending (and let's face it, nothing they do will make everyone happy; it's just not possible to create perfect endings for everybody given the vast range of player experiences).

I will disagree with you on one point, however; this will set a precedent. Bioware is the third most influential game developer in the world right now, and the industry takes notice of everything they do. If they get away with selling a "better ending" DLC (and they likely will, given how many people have demanded it), other developers will take notice, and they'll offer to "fix" any problems players have with their games for a fee, essentially hiking up the standard price of games and giving developers a larger percentage of the profit. I could see it becoming the next project ten dollar, except worse. That's what scares me most about this whole thing; so many Mass Effect fans are unwilling to look at the long-term ramifications of this action

 

[Falcon123]

anc[is]
Skip to 10:50

TLR EA/Bioware doesn't give a shit about you, they are not your friend, they are trying to suck every dollar they can out of you. Stop telling them it is ok to be lazy and mess up at the last second and/or deliberately chop the ending off to sell to you later. Stop telling them that they are immune to criticism as long as some paid off internet journalists throw out a few keywords like 'art' or 'entitlement'. They do not need you to stick up for them, stop defending them.

Who's defending Bioware in this manner? No one is saying the ending was good or that they don't deserve the backlash they're getting. The argument is over whether DLC fixing the ending should exist and its ramifications on the industry as a whole long term. I'm going to have to ask for some more explanation on your point, because calling fans entitled for demanding a new ending is not the same as defending Bioware's poor handling of the situation...

 

[boag]

Do I really have to repost the picture of an Apple and Picture of a Fork analogy again?

oh well here we go.

Artist advertises a pictures of an apple

Buyer commissions picture of an apple

Ends up with picture of a fork

Buyer complains that he wants a picture of an apple

Artist says reviewers loved the picture of the fork, which he gave them for free

More Buyers complain that they want picture of an apple, not the picture of a fork.

Artist says he might make a transparency add on, that might have an apple that people can put on their picture of the fork.

Some Buyers are ok with that, because they can get the picture of the apple, other buyers say that the complainers are ruining the picture of the fork.

Some Internet reviewers say the complainers have ruined the artistic integrity of the artist for making him draw an apple add on to the fork picture.

 

[Callate]

entitlement en-ti-till-ment noun;

"Your perspective on the subject is something I assume by default has no value; ergo, shut up."

 

[Tono Makt]

Here's my 2 cents:

What bothers me about all the rage concerning Mass Effect 3's ending, is that people seem to ignore everything leading up to the ending because the ending is bad.

The Mass Effect series is like going on a series of dates with a pretty girl. The first date, things go well. She's cute, she's into some of the things you're into (but not all), she's smart and she doesn't want to go see a chick flick. It's a pretty fun night, and she says she'd like to see you again, and gives you a chaste kiss on the cheek.

The second date, you go to dinner. Fantastically, you find that the food she wants the most turns out to be the most inexpensive on the menu, so you can spring for wine. The conversation is great better than the first night. And while you find she's got some opinions that don't mesh with your own (and you've argued passionately against those sorts of opinions from people you don't like), the entire package tones that down. Then you go off to a concert and have a blast - more because she's having fun dancing than because you like the music. It's just a fun time, and the little annoying things aren't nearly as annoying as they normally would be. At the end of the night, she gives you a full on kiss... and doesn't move away when you accidentally brush up against her breasts.

Then the third date comes and it's full on awesome time. She's dressed in a slinky black dress, you're in a shirt and tie (a tie! a TIE!!) and you've made reservations for a 4 star restaurant. You've been saving up for this for a while, and you've got the entire evening planned out. The conversation is fantastic; you actually voice your disagreement with some of her opinions, and she answers you with intelligent reasons why she holds them. While this doesn't make you agree with her, at least you see where she's coming from and can respect it. The waiter is perfect, and partway through dinner he brings a beautiful red rose for her, hinting that it was actually your idea and it thrills her. The meal is beautifully done, and comes with a dessert that you didn't expect because you didn't read through the full menu as carefully as you should. (you make a mental note in the future to do so, but secretly you are ecstatic because it makes you look even better in her eyes) At the end of the meal, the bill comes and it's actually less than you expected, so you can give the waiter a larger tip than you normally would, showing how generous you are.

Instead of going out to a show, she asks you to take her back to your place, and you do. Back at your place (which isn't as neat and clean as you had hoped, since you didn't expect to bring her home tonight) the two of you start making out. And my god but she is hitting everything perfectly. Every fantasy you had about this moment is coming true as if she truly is what you think she is. While she's not perfect, she's putting herself out there to make you feel as good as she can. (sure, a few missteps. long nails, bit of pulling of body hair, awkward bumping of heads, too much teeth, little things that are easily forgotten a moment later) The least you can do is return the favour, and so you slowly pull down her panties and...


SSSSSSPPPRRRRROOOOOIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!

Penis.

 

[Zeraki]

You are no longer entitled to be surprised when Bioware games turn out to be crap. They haven't made anything good since Dragon Age: Origins.

I always felt kind of 'meh' about Dragon Age. I enjoyed it, but I basically just played it to kill some time before Mass Effect 2 came out, which I was very happy with. I was actually pretty happy with Mass Effect 3 as well, until I got to the horribly phoned in and nihilistic ending... and Tali's face reveal(which they shouldn't have done it at all) and the 'Galaxy At War' crap basically breaking the game down to numbers instead of decisions. Mass Effect 2 did the "epic final battle" much better than Mass Effect 3 did... Human-Terminator-Reaper-Baby aside.

 

[xorinite]

No. Mass Effect 3's story may be unsatisfactory (I haven't finished it, yet, but that's not the point), but that doesn't mean it should be changed.

Your argument loses all credibility when your admit you haven't even experienced the part people are upset with.

Rattling on about it being an artistic medium is irrelevant. Its an unfinished product, of course they should finish it in patch, they should have finished it before release.

Also like everyone else who espouses this argument you assume the developers were happy with and intended to release that ending, I don't do them this disservice. Inviting the developers to try again is something we should do, if anything it should be seen as a compliment that we think they are capable, and would want to do much better.

It should be left to be what it is, and to change it because you don't like it, is effectively censorship. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/censor)

No it isn't.
If I write a report on something and its bad, and someone asks me to try again, its not censorship. Its a request, no matter how loudly and aggressively its voiced its still just a request. It can be ignored.

I also think that calling this censorship trivialises the suffering of people who are oppressed with genuine censorship, where they cannot even publish a leaflet without being hunted down and thrown in jail, or where owning a typewriter carries the death penalty.

You are really suggesting this is the same as asking a developer to try again?

Alternatively, think if you wrote a story that people felt had a lackluster ending. You mulled over it for weeks and felt that is the appropriate ending for your story.

Evidence that the developers are all perfectly happy and satisfied with the ending like you suggest?
Oh and please don't tell me "well they released it, of course they are happy with it" because Origin wasn't happy with Ultima 8, it was full of bugs, they had to cut tonnes of stuff, and beyond that it didn't even come close to the artistic vision they wanted to convey.
They released anyway, it happens all the time in the gaming industry. Everyone reading this can likely cite their favourite example of this.

We even have developers themselves saying they weren't happy with it, so suggesting they mulled it over and felt that it was appropriate is demonstrably wrong.

You can't petition filmmakers to change endings. You can't petition author's or TV writers, either.

Yes you can. However no equivalence of DLC exists for films, so it's a lot harder for them to do, but they will often change things in remastered or special editions of those films.

One example; Neil Degrasse Tyson was very upset by the sky in titanic, so he complained to James Cameron, and in the Anniversary version they changed the sky.

Here it is, always amuses me, and its relevant to this subject.