Entitlement

[Something Amyss]

If I am promised a product that does X, I'm entitled to a product that does X, otherwise I'm entitled to returning it for a refund. If I am promised a product that does not do Y, I am entitled to a product that does not do Y, otherwise I'm entitled to returning it for a refund.

If only we could get people to ditch the "don't like how it turned out" strawman and run with this. It would save a lot of time and effort.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

Who's defending Bioware in this manner? No one is saying the ending was good or that they don't deserve the backlash they're getting. The argument is over whether DLC fixing the ending should exist and its ramifications on the industry as a whole long term. I'm going to have to ask for some more explanation on your point, because calling fans entitled for demanding a new ending is not the same as defending Bioware's poor handling of the situation...

Only about 80-90% of the opposition. The thread title is one of the two words you can just parrot in order to shoot down anyone who wants it changed.

 

[Savagezion]

SSSSSSPPPRRRRROOOOOIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!

Penis.

LOL, dude halfway through reading the 3rd date I was already planning on quoting you and having it end with "she has a penis". I didn't think you were gonna take it there originally. I agree completely but for some reason I thought you were going to go with something more mild like she is married or something. I agree though, having her have a penis is equivalent.

The end has actually made Mass Effect series go from my top 3 favorite games to somewhere under around top 20-25. The ending alone does that. It invalidates everything.

 

[Sylveria]

When we buy a game (new), we are entitled to a good game. But if it isn't good, or just doesn't tickle our particular fancy, then we just learn our lesson. We get more critical about future purchases and we move forward, because that particular game didn't meet our expectations. If we don't like it, we should simply move on. To mindlessly ***** is unhealthy. Criticize, of course, but do it constructively.

Another article about entitlement... despite most people using it wrong or misapplying it. It's a publisher guilt term. They use it to make YOU, the consumer, the bad guy for complaining about their shoddy product. Sadly, many apologists have jumped on this train, in essence, saying they will happily sacrifice their consumer rights to white-knight for someone who couldn't care less about you. After all, you're a white-knight, they don't have to please you, you're pleased by everything they do.

Games are a consumer product. You, usually, spend money and get something in return. If a product fails to meet consumer expectations due to false advertisement or poor quality, the consumer's have the rights under-law. In most every other case, if you buy a consumer product that fails to meet expectations you can return it. The FTC complaint is the direct result of ME3's fraudulent advertising. Disgustingly, people dismiss this as bitching because it's a game instead of anything else. I've even seen supposed game journalists go as far to say "Hey, buyer beware," when that is basically the rallying cry of the snake-oil salesman. Fortunately, in a basically unprecedented event, certain retailers have decided to allow returns on the game, likely because of the pressure given said FTC complaint.

Frankly, I'm glad ME fans have gone this far. Maybe next time the developers and publishers will think twice before they slap together parts of the product then plan DLC later to "fix" it.

 

[Falcon123]

anc[is]

Who's defending Bioware in this manner? No one is saying the ending was good or that they don't deserve the backlash they're getting. The argument is over whether DLC fixing the ending should exist and its ramifications on the industry as a whole long term. I'm going to have to ask for some more explanation on your point, because calling fans entitled for demanding a new ending is not the same as defending Bioware's poor handling of the situation...

Only about 80-90% of the opposition. The thread title is one of the two words you can just parrot in order to shoot down anyone who wants it changed.

But how is that a defense of Bioware? I'm not denying that Bioware presented a bad ending (and it truly was bad; I don't think anyone is denying that), but I do believe that changing the ending is the wrong move, especially given the long term ramifications such a move would have, and players don't have the right to demand a new ending just because they personally don't like it any more than I have the right to tell you how to do your job. You don't like it? Don't give them your money. But they don't owe you anything.

 

[Atmos Duality]

There is also a difference between marketing and honesty; when they market a game, they hype it up and deliver hyperbole. They can defend this by saying "these were our goals" or "this is our opinion." It's not a fact. It's also not a fact that the game sucked.

That is true, but it needs further clarity.

If something can be measured, even in boolean logic (such as the presence/absence of a feature) then it's grounded in objective reasoning. If I promise 30 different guns in my game, it had better have 30 different guns in it, no matter how small/great the differences between them.

Here, Bioware promised that the one of the key features was that the decisions of the player throughout the series would impact the final ending. That is measurable by boolean logic no matter how involved/removed those decisions are.

That's the sort of thing you want to look for if you're arguing for/against "False Advertising".

This is different from complaints about the qualitative elements of the ending ("It's sad/sucks/etc") since those are purely subjective and thus, not legitimate grounds for demanding a refund/changes/etc.

I don't own ME3, so any further judgment on my part is useless as it would be uninformed.

 

[Falcon123]

When we buy a game (new), we are entitled to a good game. But if it isn't good, or just doesn't tickle our particular fancy, then we just learn our lesson. We get more critical about future purchases and we move forward, because that particular game didn't meet our expectations. If we don't like it, we should simply move on. To mindlessly ***** is unhealthy. Criticize, of course, but do it constructively.

Another article about entitlement... despite most people using it wrong or misapplying it. It's a publisher guilt term. They use it to make YOU, the consumer, the bad guy for complaining about their shoddy product. Sadly, many apologists have jumped on this train, in essence, saying they will happily sacrifice their consumer rights to white-knight for someone who couldn't care less about you. After all, you're a white-knight, they don't have to please you, you're pleased by everything they do.

Games are a consumer product. You, usually, spend money and get something in return. If a product fails to meet consumer expectations due to false advertisement or poor quality, the consumer's have the rights under-law. In most every other case, if you buy a consumer product that fails to meet expectations you can return it. The FTC complaint is the direct result of ME3's fraudulent advertising. Disgustingly, people dismiss this as bitching because it's a game instead of anything else. I've even seen supposed game journalists go as far to say "Hey, buyer beware," when that is basically the rallying cry of the snake-oil salesman. Fortunately, in a basically unprecedented event, certain retailers have decided to allow returns on the game, likely because of the pressure given said FTC complaint.

Frankly, I'm glad ME fans have gone this far. Maybe next time the developers and publishers will think twice before they slap together parts of the product then plan DLC later to "fix" it.

I'm afraid you're confusing interviews made months before the game's release with guarantees made about the product. 99% of the game is exactly what you would expect Mass Effect to be. You got the third Mass Effect game with your purchase: exactly what you were promised. Everything else was hype, speculation, or comments made by individuals before the product was completed that in no way are a guarantee of the final product. If they said the game cured cancer, that would be false advertising. This is just a fan base who is angry that the ending didn't live up to expectations (despite the fact that they was no way they could possibly have made an ending that satisfied everyone) and making irrational demands that will have long term implications that none of them want to deal with. They're short sighted at best.

And actually, waiting to see how a game turns out before buying it is not a "snake-oil salesman" tactic. That's just responsible buying strategies. I don't buy anything without reading reviews or learning more about the product. If I buy something and don't like it, regardless of what kind of product it is, I either return it or refuse to buy more of them in the future. If you're mad, stop buying Bioware products. That's fair. But what's not fair is demanding that people change their own artistic vision according to what you want. Don't like the vision? Don't buy the game. That simple.

And remember, buying the DLC that "fixes" everything only gives more money to the developer that you seem to oppose so deeply. And if people don't buy it, then why do you care that they make it? And if it is made, people will buy it, and Bioware will learn the opposite lesson; as long as they fix it later, people will keep giving them money. That precedent will affect gaming far longer than people will remember why they hated this ending

 

[Fr]anc[is]

But how is that a defense of Bioware? I'm not denying that Bioware presented a bad ending (and it truly was bad; I don't think anyone is denying that), but I do believe that changing the ending is the wrong move, especially given the long term ramifications such a move would have, and players don't have the right to demand a new ending just because they personally don't like it any more than I have the right to tell you how to do your job. You don't like it? Don't give them your money. But they don't owe you anything.

Shooting down people attacking Bioware is defending Bioware. It's an escort mission. I think people have the right to demand whatever they want. Supply and demand is economics 101, its how the world works. However, EA doesn't have to do anything with those demands, and I think this is the point a lot of ME3 arguments miss. If they want to leave the ending alone, they can, nobody has a gun to their head. But they have to live with the consequences: pissed off former consumers, bad PR, and lost sales. Your statement makes no mention of EA/Bioware's actions, so it reads as if you are saying "shut up and be thankful or whatever they graciously decide to give you" and THAT is insulting.

 

[The Heik]

Can we stop with analogies that make no sense?

EDIT: Ok, I'm looking at my Deus ex: Human Revolution box, and it says "a perfect mix of action and role play."

It is not perfect. Do I deserve my money back? No, because it's opinion.

And marketing. I think you guys are partially mad because your idealistic vision of Bioware was shattered when ME3 didn't live up to some expectations.

I really hate that people keep think that the majority of the fans are mad that that the ending didn't live up to expectations. To be honest, most of us have stated that we are mad because we were lied to, that we were outright told that specific facets of the ending would happen in a certain way, only for those statements to prove entirely false, in fact doing a complete 180 in certain cases. That is false advertising, hence the complaint to the FTC.

I knew that the end to ME3 wouldn't be one of those idyllic scenes where the good guys get one of those fairy tale endings. Throughout the entire game (and the series come to mention it) people have died by the thousands, millions and billions. Worlds have been shattered, friends have been lost, and galactic civilization has been brought to the brink of annihilation. No one is coming out of that smelling like daisies. What I expected was that the ending would stay true to the primary themes that Bioware had established, that they would give some sort of weight to the decisions I'd made and the time I'd put into the whole thing, much like they did with ME1 & 2. The ending could have been a sad one, but so long as it had made sense, then I wouldn't have really minded at all. That is not what I got though (see the hundreds of threads people have made on this for all the details because I'm really tired of explaining the details again and again)

Also, speaking as a future member of the gaming industry, that artistic expression stuff Bioware's using to "validate" their product is complete bullshit. Artistic expression means that you have the right to make any product you wish. However, you do have to present it as such. You can't promise someone one thing, then give the customer something different after they have given you their money. Gaming for all it's artistic potential is still a business, and as such the companies have to at least try live up to their promises, else they will lose capital and more importantly reputation, which is the lifeblood of any artist. If people know that a company does not live up to it's promises, then they will not want to by the company's products. No money, no games, and as such no artistic expression.

Aside: And just to mention, if you don't know what the ending is yet, then you don't get to judge other people's reactions to it because you lack the actual contextual information necessary to get a clear picture on the whole situation. What you're doing is akin to trying to tell a brain surgeon how to do his job because you read once read a medical journal.

 

[coolbeans21]

And remember, buying the DLC that "fixes" everything only gives more money to the developer that you seem to oppose so deeply. And if people don't buy it, then why do you care that they make it? And if it is made, people will buy it, and Bioware will learn the opposite lesson; as long as they fix it later, people will keep giving them money. That precedent will affect gaming far longer than people will remember why they hated this ending

Have they established they would be charging for ending DLC? If its geniune content alla "Broken Steel" then fair enough, But I assumed they will slap an epilogue on the end and patch it in for freesie.

Also didn't the fallen steel dlc for fallout 3 set this precedent you speak of already?

 

[Torrasque]

Here's my 2 cents:

What bothers me about all the rage concerning Mass Effect 3's ending, is that people seem to ignore everything leading up to the ending because the ending is bad.

The Mass Effect series is like going on a series of dates with a pretty girl. The first date, things go well. She's cute, she's into some of the things you're into (but not all), she's smart and she doesn't want to go see a chick flick. It's a pretty fun night, and she says she'd like to see you again, and gives you a chaste kiss on the cheek.

The second date, you go to dinner. Fantastically, you find that the food she wants the most turns out to be the most inexpensive on the menu, so you can spring for wine. The conversation is great better than the first night. And while you find she's got some opinions that don't mesh with your own (and you've argued passionately against those sorts of opinions from people you don't like), the entire package tones that down. Then you go off to a concert and have a blast - more because she's having fun dancing than because you like the music. It's just a fun time, and the little annoying things aren't nearly as annoying as they normally would be. At the end of the night, she gives you a full on kiss... and doesn't move away when you accidentally brush up against her breasts.

Then the third date comes and it's full on awesome time. She's dressed in a slinky black dress, you're in a shirt and tie (a tie! a TIE!!) and you've made reservations for a 4 star restaurant. You've been saving up for this for a while, and you've got the entire evening planned out. The conversation is fantastic; you actually voice your disagreement with some of her opinions, and she answers you with intelligent reasons why she holds them. While this doesn't make you agree with her, at least you see where she's coming from and can respect it. The waiter is perfect, and partway through dinner he brings a beautiful red rose for her, hinting that it was actually your idea and it thrills her. The meal is beautifully done, and comes with a dessert that you didn't expect because you didn't read through the full menu as carefully as you should. (you make a mental note in the future to do so, but secretly you are ecstatic because it makes you look even better in her eyes) At the end of the meal, the bill comes and it's actually less than you expected, so you can give the waiter a larger tip than you normally would, showing how generous you are.

Instead of going out to a show, she asks you to take her back to your place, and you do. Back at your place (which isn't as neat and clean as you had hoped, since you didn't expect to bring her home tonight) the two of you start making out. And my god but she is hitting everything perfectly. Every fantasy you had about this moment is coming true as if she truly is what you think she is. While she's not perfect, she's putting herself out there to make you feel as good as she can. (sure, a few missteps. long nails, bit of pulling of body hair, awkward bumping of heads, too much teeth, little things that are easily forgotten a moment later) The least you can do is return the favour, and so you slowly pull down her panties and...


SSSSSSPPPRRRRROOOOOIIIIINNNNGGGGG!!!!

Penis.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL
That was fucking perfect xD

 

[Torrasque]

Here's my 2 cents:

What bothers me about all the rage concerning Mass Effect 3's ending, is that people seem to ignore everything leading up to the ending because the ending is bad. That isn't like eating a bag of pretzels only to find that they are cheetos, it is like eating a bag of pretzels and being thirsty 2 hours later. You ignore how good the pretzels were because of how much being thirsty sucks.

The best comparison I can think of is Escaflowne. Escaflowne is one of the best anime I have ever seen. The characters are great, the story is amazing, the animation is great, the setting is great, and the mech combat is fucking amazing. But the ending... THE ENDING. The ending of Escaflowne is the worst ending out of all anime I have ever seen. If I could, I would scratch the part of my disc that had the ending, just so it would skip over that part whenever watching it. Ignoring the ending, Escaflowne is my favorite anime of all time. Including the ending, Escaflowne gets bumped to #6.
Here's where the comparison to Mass Effect 3 comes in.
Watching 26 episodes of Escaflowne and having all that story, conflict, and drama, come to a head... and then being soiled so utterly, makes me mad. I was sooooo fucking mad after seeing that ending, that I wanted to break my disc. After a few months, I got the urge to watch Escaflowne again, but knowing that ending waited for me, my urge to watch it was spoiled. I've since watched Escaflowne another 2 times, and I've skipped the ending both times. Escaflowne is still a very good anime and I love it dearly, I suggest it to everyone I know who is into mech anime (including you!). But I tell them to skip the ending.

I get that after 2 games, the ending is very important (Escaflowne's ending was very important to me), but the amount of raging and QQ over this, as well as the demands, is fucking ridiculous. I won't demand that the writers of Escaflowne change the ending, I won't demand the pretzel manufacturer make a non-dehydrating pretzel, because even though I didn't know the ending was going to suck, I took a chance with it and bought it anyways. Next time, buy non-dehydrating pretzels, or ask people if the pretzels they buy are dehydrating.

Hmmm... That seems more like my $2.40 rather than my 2 cents... Oh well.

this man (or woman i dont recognise the avatar and found its bad to assume) get it.

Even the worst endings shouldn't tar the rest of the experience. OR in essence what you are saying is the final 1-3% of the experience is worth more than the preceding 97-99% of it put together.

I'm saying the ending does affect the entire experience, but you have to remember how good the experience was before the ending. Escaflowne and Mass Effect are still great experiences, you just have to detach yourself from the ending so you can still enjoy it.

Go up a few posts and you'll see someone replying to me with a dating scenario that captures my experience with Escaflowne, and most people's experience with ME3, perfectly.

 

[zefiris]

Now, some people like me care about artistic integrity a lot,

People like you don't understand what artistic integrity means.

Artists are asked to change their art ALL THE TIME.

Don't believe me? Look up a guy called Doyle. He wrote a little known thing called Sherlock Holmes. Go look up why Sherlock Holmes got novels published that were set after the novel in which Sherlock Holmes died.

Oops. People asked the artist to change the ending for years, which he eventually did. This led to literary classics that we would not know if "artistic integrity" would have the meaning you think it does.

Its misdirection other than flat out lying.

No, actually. It is flat out lying. With any other product, you could indeed sue the maker of the product for false advertisement.
Game company entitlement makes the companies pretend this is "gamer entitlement" though.

That isn't like eating a bag of pretzels only to find that they are cheetos, it is like eating a bag of pretzels and being thirsty 2 hours later.

No, it's like eating a bag of pretzels and then discovering that the last ones are rotten.
Guess what happens in this case.

Yup, you get your money back.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

Have they established they would be charging for ending DLC? If its geniune content alla "Broken Steel" then fair enough, But I assumed they will slap an epilogue on the end and patch it in for freesie.

Also didn't the fallen steel dlc for fallout 3 set this precedent you speak of already?

I always thought the major selling point of Broken Steel was that you got to keep screwing around after the final mission. You are right though, it is a precedent.

but it did influence the ending, sure that influence only extended to colour change. Its misdirection other than flat out lying. Anyone caught by this mess has only themselves to blame for not waiting for any reviews. This is the trade off.

Thats why the review industry is supposed to exist.

Ok here is a small, but significant nitpick about that. Are you saying reviewers should spoil the ending? Susan didn't and went out of her way to say nothing when I asked her in the comments. I don't think the Destructoid guy did either. Going through detailed analysis of every aspect of the game before you buy takes out all the fun of discovering it yourself.

 

[Mikeyfell]

I had to take a shot because this was about Mass Effect 3

You can't petition filmmakers to change endings. You can't petition author's or TV writers, either. Why should games get this treatment?

While those things are both true I believe that games are a special case.
They already operate under a: Buy the game now, Buy DLC later model.

They changed the end of Mass Effect 2 by adding the Arrival DLC. All we're doing is suggesting (Demanding) that they change the end of Mass Effect 3 in a similar way.

There is also a difference between marketing and honesty; when they market a game, they hype it up and deliver hyperbole. They can defend this by saying "these were our goals" or "this is our opinion." It's not a fact. It's also not a fact that the game sucked.

There's also lying, which is what Casey Hudson did

So we designed Mass Effect 3 to be a series of endings to key plots and storylines, each culminating in scenes that show you the consequences of your actions.

That is not an opinion. That is a lie. There is not a grain of truth in that.
When you boldfacedly lie to everyone who's interested in buying your product you have to expect some kind of retaliation.

 

[Atmos Duality]

but it did influence the ending, sure that influence only extended to colour change. Its misdirection other than flat out lying. Anyone caught by this mess has only themselves to blame for not waiting for any reviews. This is the trade off.

Thats why the review industry is supposed to exist.

Then it sounds like they barely covered their ass.

I recall Todd Howard making a claim for Fallout 3's "500 endings!"
Which turned out to being 2 core endings with a bunch of added permutations based on simple yes/no flags that added/omitted scenes completely unrelated to the core plot.

True? Technically/mathematically.
Misleading? Very, but still legal.

 

[Falcon123]

anc[is]

But how is that a defense of Bioware? I'm not denying that Bioware presented a bad ending (and it truly was bad; I don't think anyone is denying that), but I do believe that changing the ending is the wrong move, especially given the long term ramifications such a move would have, and players don't have the right to demand a new ending just because they personally don't like it any more than I have the right to tell you how to do your job. You don't like it? Don't give them your money. But they don't owe you anything.

Shooting down people attacking Bioware is defending Bioware. It's an escort mission. I think people have the right to demand whatever they want. Supply and demand is economics 101, its how the world works. However, EA doesn't have to do anything with those demands, and I think this is the point a lot of ME3 arguments miss. If they want to leave the ending alone, they can, nobody has a gun to their head. But they have to live with the consequences: pissed off former consumers, bad PR, and lost sales. Your statement makes no mention of EA/Bioware's actions, so it reads as if you are saying "shut up and be thankful or whatever they graciously decide to give you" and THAT is insulting.

No, it's not. I spent a whole other thread bashing Bioware for caving in and giving people the ending they're demanding. I think both sides of this are wrong, but this thread is about the consumers' entitlement, so that's what you're seeing. Go look at the countless threads fighting against Bioware if that's for what you're looking, but they are each separate problems, in my opinion