Erttheking's Guidelines to Critical Debate

[Erttheking]

Things seem to be heating up a bit on the internet lately whenever people try to talk about something that is important to you. Being passionate is fine, but you should probably consider these guidelines.

#1: Site your sources. Now you don't need to cite every last little thing. You don't need to cite that water is two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen for example. But if you ever make a claim regarding data, you should probably actually show some data.

#2: Make sure your source actually contributes something to the conversation. Seems like a no brainer, but the sheer number of times I see something like "I imagine that movement X would just-" etc etc. Usually it's nothing more than hate spewing wearing the disguise of a clever remark. So like a I said. Make sure what you say is something productive. Make sure it adds to the conversation.

#3: The movement you support is not special. Every movement has flaws. EVERY! ONE! Not just the ones you don't like. It's perfectly fine to point out flaws with a movement, so long as its in a way that leads to intelligent conversation and isn't just "THESE GUYS SUCK!" but please keep in mind that if you're trying to make it look like your movement has the high ground, it probably doesn't. Because if it's made up of Human beings using the internet, there are unavoidably going to be assholes.

#4: Keep your emotions in check. While I admit to having broken quite a few of these guidelines, this is the one I'm worse with. When you let your emotions dictate what you say, logic flies out the window and you might as well just stop there because nothing productive is gonna be done and everything from that point on will just be causing headaches for the mods. Think with your head, not your feelings.

#5: This is not a war: We are talking on the internet. We are not in the trenches with death being a hairsbreadth away. People who disagree with you are not your enemy. They are people who disagree with you. Chill out. Also, automatically saying someone is wrong or something else, because "they're X". Unless X is "Mentally insane" and an accurate claim at that, this statement has no value in intelligent conversation.

#6: Snarky comments make you feel good, and that's all they will ever do. Look, this is another rule I admit to breaking. Here's the thing. When you make a wise as comment at the expense of the person you're talking to, you're bolstering your ego and doing nothing else. We say them to show just how very smart we are. And as established in #4, emotions ruling us does not lead to any positive outcomes.

#7: YOU ARE NOT INFALLIBLE! I cannot stress this one enough. You do not have all the answers, you are not the smartest person on the planet, you can and will be wrong. When you are wrong, admit that you are wrong. When you think you are right, consider the possibility that you might be wrong. So many times I have seen people who were clearly wrong, yet refused to admit it out of stubborn pride. And pride is an emotion, and as established in #4, when emotions take over you might as well just pack it in.

That's all I can think of at this current moment. Do they seem like solid guidelines to you? Anything that you think should be added or altered?

 

[LetalisK]

*puts on grammar nazi costume*

#1: Site your sources. Now you don't need to cite every last little thing. You don't need to cite that water is two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen for example. But if you ever make a claim regarding data, you should probably actually show some data.

...what the fuck happened here? How does this happen? XD

#3: The movement you support is not special. Every movement has flaws. EVERY! ONE! Not just the ones you don't like. It's perfectly fine to point out flaws with a movement, so long as its in a way that leads to intelligent conversation and isn't just "THESE GUYS SUCK!" but please keep in mind that if you're trying to make it look like your movement has the high ground, it probably doesn't. Because if it's made up of Human beings using the internet, there are unavoidably going to be assholes.

To tack on to this, you don't have to defend everything your "side" does. Just because they are incorrect or flawed in one thing doesn't mean the whole Jenga stack is fucked. I probably see this more than anything else as people try to defend or minimize behaviors/arguments on things they favor when they never would otherwise. And if [general] you think you're completely fair minded and don't do this, don't worry, you totally do.

 

[FalloutJack]

...what the fuck happened here? How does this happen?

Suppose he did it on purpose, as an example to nitpickery. Fridge Brilliance?

 

[Colour Scientist]

These threads always come across as incredibly condescending.

 

[IceForce]

I don't know who this is aimed at or what purpose it serves.

 

[LetalisK]

...what the fuck happened here? How does this happen?

Suppose he did it on purpose, as an example to nitpickery. Fridge Brilliance?

Perhaps. I also realize it didn't come across as ribbing as it should have. Emoticon added. Emoticons always help.

 

[PsychicTaco115]

We are talking on the internet

That's pretty much the only thing I can really say

Unless it's a tightly moderated or public debate, it will almost always descend into shit

But then people complain about "muh censorships and 1st Amendemendments" if you DO want something more regulated

 

[Barbas]

These threads always come across as incredibly condescending.

If you already know this stuff, it's obviously not directed at you. This wasn't sent directly to you in a PM, Colour, it's a public forum thread. Forgive the man for wanting to make something productive out of his frustrations. If you've looked at the progress of some of those R&P threads recently, you'd probably feel the same way.

OT: Simple enough stuff, but I guess that's why people keep forgetting it. People don't usually like to be told how to live their lives or to feel like they're being talked down to, whether that's the intent or not, but often a lot of what's being said to them is valuable stuff. They wouldn't know whether it is or not, though, because they often close their ears right away. So we end up with people not knowing a lot of basic stuff because they just don't want to hear it. Even basic human relationships are hamstrung because people all supposed to know better but the requisite knowledge and experience never magicked itself out of thin air. People get tired of one another a lot quicker than they should and harbour a poisonous cynicism far beyond their years.

Thanks, OP. I appreciate the trouble that you went to to put this list together. I'd like to contribute this:


Laughs aside, he's right. It's a shame that it's one of those words that makes a lot of people roll their eyes now. You're surrounded by people and if you don't want to interact with them in some meaningful and mutually beneficial way then you're really kneecapping yourself from the start.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Snip.

Yes, it's a public forum thread and I posted what I thought of it. I also don't know what your point is about the PM, Barbas. The guidelines were directed at the forum and I'm a member of the forum.

 

[Barbas]

Snip.

Yes, it's a public forum thread and I posted what I thought of it. I also don't know what your point is about the PM, Barbas. The guidelines were directed at the forum and I'm a member of the forum.

...

These threads always come across as incredibly condescending.

"Then why are you here", is what I mean. You said that you're not getting anything out of it.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Snip.

Yes, it's a public forum thread and I posted what I thought of it. I also don't know what your point is about the PM, Barbas. The guidelines were directed at the forum and I'm a member of the forum.

...

These threads always come across as incredibly condescending.

"Then why are you here", is what I mean. You said that you're not getting anything out of it.

I post in a lot of threads that I don't get anything out of. In fact, that's the majority of what I do here.

 

[Barbas]

I post in a lot of threads that I don't get anything out of. In fact, that's the majority of what I do here.

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you: are you saying that you go into threads that you don't have an interest in the contents of, to add things that don't contribute to them?

Did you think the OP was written to condescend? Colour, instead of leaving a line that says something "comes across as being incredibly condescending", why didn't you just say what you would have done differently? Expand on it. Say why you have a problem with something and give people your own ideas, then we'll all get something out of the topic.

 

[IceForce]

I post in a lot of threads that I don't get anything out of. In fact, that's the majority of what I do here.

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you: are you saying that you go into threads that you don't have an interest in the contents of, to add things that don't contribute to them?

Did you think the OP was written to condescend? Colour, instead of leaving a line that says something "comes across as being incredibly condescending", why didn't you just say what you would have done differently? Expand on it. Say why you have a problem with something and give people your own ideas, then we'll all get something out of the topic.

What you're doing here is tone-policing, and it's actually really annoying.
Even more annoying than any potential condescension in the OP.

 

[Erttheking]

These threads always come across as incredibly condescending.

Didn't mean for it to come across that way, but I think we all need to admit that no matter how much we try to be above the influence we all fall into these pitfalls. Heck, I admitted to having problems with three of those guidelines I put up. Sometimes I think we need to directly confront our problems.

I don't know who this is aimed at or what purpose it serves.

Everyone really. I'm pretty sure everyone on the Escapist has fallen into at least one of these pitfalls at least once. As for purpose, hopefully it'll result in these things happening less often.

 

[Colour Scientist]

I post in a lot of threads that I don't get anything out of. In fact, that's the majority of what I do here.

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you: are you saying that you go into threads that you don't have an interest in the contents of, to add things that don't contribute to them?

Did you think the OP was written to condescend? Colour, instead of leaving a line that says something "comes across as being incredibly condescending", why didn't you just say what you would have done differently? Expand on it. Say why you have a problem with something and give people your own ideas, then we'll all get something out of the topic.

It's a gaming forum, I mostly come here to pass the time and talk shit.

I don't think it was the intention of the OP but, to me, that's how it reads.

To expand, I don't like it when members on the forum think they're entitled to "advise" others on how they should post.

 

[Barbas]

What you're doing here is tone-policing, and it's actually really annoying.
Even more annoying than any potential condescension in the OP.

No, IceForce, it isn't. Tone policing is defined as ignoring a statement and focusing instead on the tone in which it was delivered. I am not policing anything, I am saying that I think a comment hasn't added much and why I think that is. You can call it whatever you like, but it's not "tone-policing" any more than disagreeing with someone can be called "harassment" or "trolling".

 

[Erttheking]

I post in a lot of threads that I don't get anything out of. In fact, that's the majority of what I do here.

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you: are you saying that you go into threads that you don't have an interest in the contents of, to add things that don't contribute to them?

Did you think the OP was written to condescend? Colour, instead of leaving a line that says something "comes across as being incredibly condescending", why didn't you just say what you would have done differently? Expand on it. Say why you have a problem with something and give people your own ideas, then we'll all get something out of the topic.

What you're doing here is tone-policing, and it's actually really annoying.
Even more annoying than any potential condescension in the OP.

Tone policing? How? He's not saying that she can't dislike the OP, he's suggesting that he turn her post into something more productive than a simple statement.

 

[Cowabungaa]

To expand, I don't like it when members on the forum think they're entitled to "advise" others on how they should post.

Because all the nonsense surrounding all the controversies of the past year sure doesn't show that lots of folks who interact on the internet could use a bit of a change in how they interact with other people. Hell, where do you think OP's frustrations come from?

 

[Colour Scientist]

To expand, I don't like it when members on the forum think they're entitled to "advise" others on how they should post.

Because all the nonsense surrounding all the controversies of the past year sure doesn't show that lots of folks who interact on the internet could use a bit of a change in how they interact with other people. Hell, where do you think OP's frustrations come from?

The forum already has rules for posters to follow, beyond that, who cares?


If people want to be arseholes within the rules of the site, let them be arseholes. It's less irritating than people going around dictating their personal list of do's and don't's for posting on Internet forums, shaking their fingers and tut-tutting because they don't feel as though someone has contributed enough or in the right way.

 

[visiblenoise]

I post in a lot of threads that I don't get anything out of. In fact, that's the majority of what I do here.

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you: are you saying that you go into threads that you don't have an interest in the contents of, to add things that don't contribute to them?

Did you think the OP was written to condescend? Colour, instead of leaving a line that says something "comes across as being incredibly condescending", why didn't you just say what you would have done differently? Expand on it. Say why you have a problem with something and give people your own ideas, then we'll all get something out of the topic.

It's a gaming forum, I mostly come here to pass the time and talk shit.

I don't think it was the intention of the OP but, to me, that's how it reads.

To expand, I don't like it when members on the forum think they're entitled to "advise" others on how they should post.

I agree, around here it often gets wayyy too formal and obsessed with "getting somewhere." The forum rules are all that is warranted.

Besides, I hope I'm not being too much of an optimist in saying that all of these things are bits of common sense that everyone is already aware of, and that the people who break these guidelines do so deliberately, maybe because the topic of discussion just isn't as close to their hearts as it is to yours. And understandably so - sometimes it's just fun to ***** about something.