Escape to the Movies: Hansel & Gretel: Witch Hunters

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Darken12

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anamizuki said:
I'm going to focus on this, because I think it is the crux of the matter. One reason why I rarely assume sexism, accidental or not, is because sexism in itself is such a wide variety of scenarios and different people have different takes on what is sexist and what is not. Let's take Gretel here for example, if she was an action hero that easily took every villain down and never showed weakness, she would be assumed to be like that because of the fear of appearing sexist, rather than because her character just was strong. And if anything bad should happen to her, like getting captured, lose to a villain or anything that might show weakness, it can also be seen as sexim. Same things could easily happen to Hansel, but nobody would doubt he is capable.

And that is the circular trap that calling sexism can cause. Of course there are legimately sexist movies out there, I won't deny it and I am not defending this movie. However, fiction featuring female characters often is under a much worse scrutinity than one featuring men. And while some of that is for a reason, just trying to make a femsle character that isn't seen as sexist in some way is hard. You possibly are aware of the trope Real Women Don't Wear Dresses, which penalises women for showing feminity by treating it as a weakness. That, and the above mentioned issues regarding how strong the character should be and should they even show weakness, are reasons why often having a female character be accepted is harder than with male character.

And that is why I don't want to assume sexism nor wait until the society is ready for all female villain groups. Because if we just wait and try to not seem sexist, we will never get there. The best method of writing a female character , in my opinion, is to not worry about sexist stereotypes or if the character would seem sexist. Rather, just write a human being and a situation. If we don't bring ideas like all female villain groups to the table now, we avoid far too much for the good of equality. Real human beings have weaknesses, and good characters have a place in the plot. If a female character is the sidekick to the male hero, the writer shouldn't try to constantly justify that they are equals.

Most of this isn't based upon your post, just something I have noticed about how female characters are received and how hard it can be to write them if you assume sexism easily. Nor do I think your opinions are flawed at all.
The problem is that our current societal conception of femininity is deeply steeped into patriarchy and does include a hefty amount of weakness (in order to keep women down). Parts of our conception of femininity are perfectly fine (for example, those that have to do with biological processes unique to women, such as menstruation, pregnancy and motherhood, are entirely neutral), but parts of it are actually detrimental to women as a whole and exist only to perpetuate the patriarchy's sexism (such as the idea that women are frail, dainty, emotional, naturally gravitate towards positions of service and submission instead of leadership, lack agency, aggressiveness or physical power, must orbit their lives around a male (or romantic love), must surrender their bodies to the continuation of the species and their lives to the ideal of family, must subject their sexuality to society's approval, are somehow incomplete or less feminine if they choose to be career women, and so on). Perpetuating those conceptions of femininity IS sexist, as it continues to perpetuate the patriarchy's hold on womanhood. Women have to redefine femininity on their own terms, sending a message to society that if a woman is a dress-wearing housewife, it's because that's what that woman in particular wants to be, and not because that's what she feels she must be in order to feel feminine or get society's approval.

The problem with what you're suggesting is that you assume that art (or entertainment) exists on a vacuum and artists (or entertainers/creators) are utterly disconnected from their societal contexts. Barring certain exceptions, a creator is a product of its society, and if you don't criticise art/entertainment, you are perpetuating the status quo (because the entertainment is going to reflect the entertainer's background and baggage, and then reinforce what already exists), and therefore nothing ever changes. While I support the idea that art and entertainment should be allowed to exist regardless of what they are (that is, I am against censorship), I am pro-criticism. I think that's the best way to balance the effect art and entertainment have on society. By constantly analysing and criticising what we're exposed to, we can encourage creators to step out of their comfort zone, to shake off their societal conditioning and to send something back to society that is different than what society has poured into them from birth. That's the best way to change society for the better.

I completely agree that female characters get scrutinised more than male ones, but the way to redress the balance isn't by scrutinising less, it's by scrutinising male characters more. We should be more critical of the way males are depicted in the media and stop accepting male as the default for human. We should be more critical of the media we consume and just overall analyse our surroundings more. Taking media as a drug that we take in a thoughtless haze is very harmful for our culture.

I don't disagree, intellectually, with your ultimate intentions. I do wish we could get to a point where artists and entertainers could portray female characters without thinking about sexism at all. That would be absolutely wonderful. But if you tell an artist who was raised in a sexist society that, he's going to make sexist portrayals because that's what society has been pouring into his brain all his life. If you want to tell a creator to just write instinctively and you expect a non-sexist result, then he must have been raised in a non-sexist society (or undergone severe social deprogramming).
 

Darken12

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Blue Ranger said:
Darken12 said:
Just to clarify, in case it was inspired by anything I said, I have absolutely no problem with female mooks or villains. My problem comes when A) All (or almost all) the villains/mooks are female, and B) The (main) person enacting violence on them is a male.
And what if the villains are all male, while the one enacting the violence is female? Do you have a problem with that, too?
Yes, yes, I do. It perpetuates stereotypes that are harmful for the male gender (like being expendable, acceptable targets of violence regardless of context, devoid of worth, emotions or uniqueness, and so on).
 

anamizuki

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Darken12 said:
Blue Ranger said:
Darken12 said:
Just to clarify, in case it was inspired by anything I said, I have absolutely no problem with female mooks or villains. My problem comes when A) All (or almost all) the villains/mooks are female, and B) The (main) person enacting violence on them is a male.
And what if the villains are all male, while the one enacting the violence is female? Do you have a problem with that, too?
Yes, yes, I do. It perpetuates stereotypes that are harmful for the male gender (like being expendable, acceptable targets of violence regardless of context, devoid of worth, emotions or uniqueness, and so on).
So how should that movie have been made, in your opinion? How to create a character who isn't going to be offensive?
 

Darken12

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anamizuki said:
So how should that movie have been made, in your opinion? How to create a character who isn't going to be offensive?
Which movie? Hansel and Gretel or a hypothetical movie with a female protagonist? If it's the former, then I wouldn't have made it a movie based on the spectacle of violence, to start with (as I don't think saying "witch hunts are awesome" is a good message to spew thoughtlessly for the sake of a Hollywood cash-grab), but at the very least I would have made the witches even-gendered and made Gretel just as competent and prone to heroics and injury as Hansel. If she gets beaten and nursed back to health, same thing happens to Hansel. If Hansel mows down a horde of witches with an anachronistic machine gun, Gretel finds a different way to achieve the same result. More or less, I would take care to make both genders as even as possible, both from the perspective of the villains and the heroes.

As for a movie with a female protagonist, I'd basically just hire a team of feminists (of as varying ideologies as possible, and preferably some with academic backgrounds) to tell me what to do. I trust they know a lot more than I do on how to portray female characters positively. Granted, they wouldn't agree on everything and compromises would have to be made, but I trust that the end result would be positive.
 

gphjr14

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Don't know if movie bob watched this all the way through they reveal in the later half that there are good witches.

Not to mention the crucial plot detail that
Hansel and Gretel are immune to magic because their mom was a witch and Gretel actually is a witch and Hansel is saved by a good witch
so its kind of misleading to make the movie seem like one big witch hunt where anyone who isn't a Christian is a drooling fanged villain...just mostly everyone.
 

Starke

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MacNille said:
Oh good. Another fucking Lens flare joke. It is like it was not played out in 2009....
Oh good, another re-captioned Batman panel taken out of context. It's not like that joke was played out in 2008...
 

Freezyflea

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Darken12 said:
anamizuki said:
So how should that movie have been made, in your opinion? How to create a character who isn't going to be offensive?
Which movie? Hansel and Gretel or a hypothetical movie with a female protagonist? If it's the former, then I wouldn't have made it a movie based on the spectacle of violence, to start with (as I don't think saying "witch hunts are awesome" is a good message to spew thoughtlessly for the sake of a Hollywood cash-grab), but at the very least I would have made the witches even-gendered and made Gretel just as competent and prone to heroics and injury as Hansel. If she gets beaten and nursed back to health, same thing happens to Hansel. If Hansel mows down a horde of witches with an anachronistic machine gun, Gretel finds a different way to achieve the same result. More or less, I would take care to make both genders as even as possible, both from the perspective of the villains and the heroes.
The amusing thing is, you actually just described the film rather well. Hansel and Gretel take turns being nursed back to health by opposite gender supporting characters, twice each in the film's run, with about an equal share of asskicking between them. Hansel isn't so much a stand out main character, either. They work as a well oiled pair, with Hansel being the stoic muscle, and Gretel as the wiser strategist.
 

Yuuki

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Lets have a movie where Hansel and Gretel hunt ravenous beast-men. Hansel repeatedly gets taken down and has to be nursed back to health by Gretel, who also does a most of the action.

Will MovieBob call the movie misandrist? Yes it's actually a word, but so incredibly rarely used that people will most likely have to look it up (hint: it's the opposite of misogyny).
I'm willing to bet ALL my money that he wouldn't have even vaguely hinted at it. Not at all. Not a word would have been said.
In fact the very concept of misandry doesn't even compute as far as most people are concerned, the thought simply can't occur.
Gretel would've been praised for being a strong female protagonist, slaying lots of beast-men, helping Hansel, and that would've been the end of that.

But as we already know, the double standard has been around since quite possibly the beginning of time. Can't really blame Bob for falling victim to it.

Darken12 said:
anamizuki said:
So how should that movie have been made, in your opinion? How to create a character who isn't going to be offensive?
Which movie? Hansel and Gretel or a hypothetical movie with a female protagonist? If it's the former, then I wouldn't have made it a movie based on the spectacle of violence, to start with (as I don't think saying "witch hunts are awesome" is a good message to spew thoughtlessly for the sake of a Hollywood cash-grab), but at the very least I would have made the witches even-gendered and made Gretel just as competent and prone to heroics and injury as Hansel. If she gets beaten and nursed back to health, same thing happens to Hansel. If Hansel mows down a horde of witches with an anachronistic machine gun, Gretel finds a different way to achieve the same result. More or less, I would take care to make both genders as even as possible, both from the perspective of the villains and the heroes.

As for a movie with a female protagonist, I'd basically just hire a team of feminists (of as varying ideologies as possible, and preferably some with academic backgrounds) to tell me what to do. I trust they know a lot more than I do on how to portray female characters positively. Granted, they wouldn't agree on everything and compromises would have to be made, but I trust that the end result would be positive.
Brilliant, yes, lets get a team of feminists to direct a movie so the world can see how a female protagonist is done. No way that could possibly fail, and I'm sure many studios would be very eager to invest.

And then we can burn every director who dares make a movie where there isn't a perfect 50/50 gender balance, and they shall be crucified for any scene where a female is shown being hit/killed. That'll teach them the meaning of equality.
This law will also apply to painters, musicians, any kind of artist.
 

ColdinT

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I always like coming back to these reviews after I've actually watched the movie. Which I recently did now that it's available to rent.

I have to say that I disagree with him on this. Yes, it's a pretty throwaway action flick, but I enjoyed it for what it was. Sure the plot could have been better, but at least it had some internal consistency. It's established in the beginning of the movie that witches are indeed real, and are indeed evil. They also look a lot different from humans, and Hansel and Gretel even stop the people from killing a woman just because she's a suspected witch. I didn't see anything about it that glorified violence against women. Hansel gets beaten up a lot too, though not quite as Gretel. Heck, he even got his own nursed back to health scene.

I'm not going to say it was a great movie or anything. But disliking it based on some high moral ground is pretty silly.