Escape to the Movies: Untangling Spider-Man

[FilipJPhry]

I hate you, bob.

 

[PhunkyPhazon]

MovieBob doesn't know -anything- about Marvel comics that date after 1992 short of Wikipedia posts, and back talk. If he did, he would have clearly---VERY clearly seen that they nailed Peter Parker's personality and character in this movie. Gwen is a bit shaky because she's been dead for years and needed a slight update. He seems to remember Peter from the 1970's onward, which no longer exists as times changed and the writers need to keep up to date with their characters.

In his defense, he says in his Twitter feed he has the CD-ROM collection of issues #1-600. I myself had one that went from #1-500, so I'm certainly willing to believe he knows his Spidey.

...Doesn't mean we can't debate a few certain points, however.

 

[Awexsome]

I agree with Bob I much prefer old Spidey, but Amazing was a lot better than he gives it credit for IMO.

1st off the whole rally behind, "an old Spidey character doesn't realistically exist in today's world" I call a bunch of horseshit. If was only slight tweaks to Peter Parker to make him more modern I'd be fine but what I watched gave me a Twilight/Edward vibe during the high school romance scenes more than Peter Parker.

As for what I disagree on the most I thought that although the lizardman could've done with a bit more explaining the final act worked very well in stopping him. The big, "New York helps Spidey" scene was the epic triumph it wanted to be in my eyes, not stupid.

The first chunk of the movie that was more Twilight with a "nerd" in name only was pretty meh and boring for me but the closing act once shit started getting real with Spidey vs Lizardman was pulled off very well in my eyes.

 

[Ramzal]

Times change, and Bob needs to accept that and get over his demand for everything to stay the way he remembered it and adapt like humans normally do.

Professionally, I'm inclined to agree. Personally, it's also important to remember the true meaning of "nostalgia." -algia means "pain." Nostalgia is "pain from an old wound."

When people see a beloved character or story changed, it gets compared against the old. And for some people, those differences are felt as almost personal injuries. And it can cause people to overreact quite a bit. The deeper the connection, the more pronounced the pain.

So, it's a natural reaction. Of course, after we get our tantrums out of the way, however natural, it's good to go back and attempt a more objective assessment.

Understood and agreed. I just think nostalgia tends to do more harm than good. And I more than anyone loves popping in Megaman 2 and going at that stupid dragon. But I can't let that turn me away from the changes made to later additions to the series that made the experience worse. But again, that's just me.

MovieBob doesn't know -anything- about Marvel comics that date after 1992 short of Wikipedia posts, and back talk. If he did, he would have clearly---VERY clearly seen that they nailed Peter Parker's personality and character in this movie. Gwen is a bit shaky because she's been dead for years and needed a slight update. He seems to remember Peter from the 1970's onward, which no longer exists as times changed and the writers need to keep up to date with their characters.

In his defense, he says in his Twitter feed he has the CD-ROM collection of issues #1-600. I myself had one that went from #1-500, so I'm certainly willing to believe he knows his Spidey.

...Doesn't mean we can't debate a few certain points, however.

I would love to believe that, but I kind of don't. x_x. I mean, if he looked at how Peter is drawn or expressed in the recent comments, he wouldn't feel as if his personality of style of dressing/hair is left field. Basically, how Peter was in the movie literally is how he is in the comics today. Both in The Amazing and Ultimate line (Well...he's dead now there. But still.)

I would believe that he has them, but only two things would have to happen. Nostalgia would block out any changes made and he's viewing it through 20 year old rose colored glasses, or he is reaching back to old and outdated material to justify a hate he had for the movie a year before it came out.

Scratch that, three: He just hasn't read them. I actually like that fact that Bob has different opinions of things. But this one just seemed fueled by nostalgic rage. Which can be done by a ranting hobo in the street. >_>

It's pretty disappointing. :/

 

[chaosyoshimage]

How can there be a reboot of the first Spiderman review so soon after the original review?! This is an outrage!

It's just a cashgrab for our comments and for lots of views. This review was obviously made by accountants, and I will recommend everybody not to view it or comment on it!!!!

Waaaah! Waaaah! Waaaah!

I really liked this post.

Anyway, I'm sick of arguing with guys like Bob or Devin Faraci at BadAss Digest. It's not even that they disagree with me on a movie, it's that their reasoning is baffling and shows how out of touch they are with "the kids these days" and perhaps even modern Spider-Man. Actually, it's not that, it's their general disdain for anyone that disagrees wtih them, it's highly unprofessional and it genuinely gives me a headache.

I'm also bothered but this weird defense of the Raimi movies that everyone is making WITHOUT ACTUALLY DEFENDING THEM! What the heck is up with that? How is it that these movies are supposedly so much better, but no one gives any good reasons? Why do none of these critics want to admit how cheesy they are? Why aren't they admitting, "Hey, maybe we gave these movies a pass back in the day since they were first?" Wait, maybe they don't need to do that, because they genuinely LIKE those movies, well plenty of rational people genuinely like this film for rational reasons, but all of these negative critics spit on them.

I really used to like Bob, he makes some good points about some things, but this one, this one is ridiculous...

 

[Deathninja19]

I've seen a lot of people saying how the way the updated Peter Parker was necessary due to the current geek chic culture, and I find it kind of odd. I mean, yeah, liking Star Trek and making Hans Shot First jokes might be cool now, but that was never what Peter Parker was about. Peter Parker was always depicted as a nerd, not a geek, and there is a profound difference. Sure, on the internet there are plenty of webcomics and so on that make physics jokes and so on, but in real life, I've never actually seen a genuine nerd held up as cool. So to me, Peter Parker being an outcast because he's a massive nerd isn't an anachronism, it would be an anachronism is he was an outcast because he watched Game of Thrones and made jokes about Captain Kirk.
Nerds still aren't cool. At least not in high school.

That is the thing though ASM's Peter Parker isn't cool at all. He literally has no friends in this movie apart from Gwen and it is implied Flash at the end. The only thing the filmakers have really updated is his appearance which is fits with fashion today, he is still a massive science geek and his best friend is a camera. He's an outcast because he's quiet and lacks confidence. He gets picked on because he is alone and makes it worse by fighting back.

The 'reviews' are just Bob railing at the studio system for moving away from his experiences as a bullied outcast because it is clear to me Bob sees a lot of himself in the Spider-Man character. But what he needs to learn is experiences change, modern portrayals of High School in the media is unrecognizable to me simply because I am not of that generation anymore, and also movies aren't made solely for Bob. Why I just cannot take Bob seriously is that he stubbornly refuses to accept other people's perceptions on modern culture and humanity as a whole, everything need to fit his narrow view on the world and it bugs the hell out of me.

 

[RJ Dalton]

I was missing Emo-Peter since I saw New-Peter's Edward Cullen haircut. I mean, at least Emo-Peter had the excuse that he had been taken over by an evil alien ooze from beyond the stars. New-Peter's just a douche.

 

[Nouw]

I object! Starship Troopers had great acting .

 

[xaszatm]

You know, I'm starting to see why moviebob flipped out. It seems that everyone is determined to praise this movie for stuff that isn't there. Even here, people are determined to ignore the MANY problems of this movie and simply act like it is the greatest movie of all time, acting like it isn't an average-decent popcorn movie and announcing to the high heavens that it is the Picasso of movies (that isn't an exaggeration, someone told me that...). I too feel like screaming "Stop ignoring the flaws" at the top of my lungs... Ugh...

You can turn that on it's head and say people are determined to hate the movie because they think it goes against what Peter Parker should be when really the Peter Parker character is a cypher. Sure Spider-Man himself has a defined personality as a joker but Peter himself is rather characterless and basically any motivation revolves around his supporting cast.

Spider-Man is a great character but Peter Parker is anything the writer wants him to be and that is especially true for the comics.

Ummm...where do I say I'm talking about Spiderman/Peter Parker in that paragraph? I actually LIKED the movie. I just have a hard time believing people who keep on telling me that this movie is anything better than okay. (In my head, like meant I sat through with it without screaming in frustration. It's a low bar.) Sure, it's subjective, but you post is highlighting my annoyances. You are assuming that I am angry about Peter Parker characterization is different from the comics. I don't read Spiderman comics. I hardly know much other than what other people have told me. And even if it was, it still doesn't explain the plot holes, plot entanglement, and Peter's likability. *Sigh*, never mind. If you are assuming I actually came in that movie wanting to hate it, then I'll assume that you think this movie is perfect and flawless like everyone else I've talked to.

 

[xaszatm]

*sigh* I'm not an idiot.

Someone's a bit sensitive.

Sorry, counting today, I've been dragged to this movie 5 times. Each ending with my friends, colleges, etc. telling me that this was the greatest movie of all time and I was an idiot for not seeing it without explaining to me why they liked it. I kind of snapped at you and I apologize.

Even if I didn't know that Gwen Stacy was going to die. The movie flat out makes it obvious with the last scene.

Some people also reading this discussion haven't read the comics, and might not be aware of such major milestones. I chose not to make the known. But if you're going to be so oddly sensitive about that, I'll just out with it. Seriously, there is absolutely nothing about my previous post that would in any way indicate what you're claiming you feel, so the source is somewhere internal. That fact is important because:

As stated in an earlier post, I don't read Spiderman comics. Heck, I've only seen the first Sam Raimi movie and that was years ago. I do not KNOW his character. My complaints are on this movie alone. Most of what I know is from my friends. If this is truly how Spiderman acts in the comics, I'm probably not going to start reading them now.

EDIT: To answer the question here, I knew Gwen Stacy was going to die simply because of the callous way Peter Parker disregard Mr. Stacy's dying wish. Since the laws of film are still in place, he is going to pay for that in a future film.

Don't say that the changes are subtle and I am just not seeing them.

You're projecting a whole lot onto other people. It's entirely possible you're just missing hints and subtlety. Why would you? I have no idea. Conjecture would tell me it's because a part of you was already determined not to like this movie, but that would be (as noted) conjecture.

Well, it certainly is possible that after watching 5 times, I missed it. I certainly doubt it, but it is a possibility. Also, I have stated in that post that I thought the movie was okay. I definitely didn't go in expecting to hate it, I just ended up having a lot of problems with it.

I too feel like screaming "Stop ignoring the flaws" at the top of my lungs... Ugh...

You've got to step back and ask yourself, "Who has a reason to misrepresent this movie?" Not intentionally, mind you, that's kinda the whole point. Which side would, without even realizing it, be more likely to heavily slant their own view to reinforce a preexisting belief?

Would it be the side of non-fans, who (like me) are aware of Spider-Man but not long-time die-hards? Or would it be those long-term die-hards, who have strong feelings attached to Spider-Man's story and established canon?

Seriously. Which side has motive? Every likes to think they're objective, because we're all standing in "the middle" in our own world. But me? I'm not a Spider-Man die-hard, but I'm aware of the character's major arcs and features, and I'm a big fan of Sam Raimi's work... so for me to step back and say, "Well, really, I think this movie did it better than Raimi did," carries some weight.

Upset fans who hate Sony, due to previous grudges and tons of press surrounding this movie, have a bit more cause to be biased against the movie. The mixed response bears that out.

Since you have pegged me akin to a crazed comic book fan, I supposed you will not read this post. In any case, my issues with this movie is not based on my knowledge of Spiderman. I knew about Gwen's death because people told me. I know about Mary-Jane and Mephisto because I watch Atop the 4th Wall. I know virtually nothing about Spiderman and yet I had serious problems with this movie. Yet, everyone automatically assumes that I am determined to hate this movie because I'm some fanboy who HAS to have it perfect. I'm not.

I have stated multiple times that I thought that the movie was a decent popcorn flick, even after seeing the same film multiple times. There were just too many problems I had with this movie. Asides from my last rant which was subjective, I have tried to show them in an objective manner (though I probably failed in that regard). As a result, people automatically think that I am some sort of perfectionist fan who cannot except change. You still haven't address how the movie acted subtly, by the way. Instead you assume that I just ignored it in my "determination" to hate this film.

 

[gorfias]

Thought Bob was wrong about a number of things others are calling out. In particular:

Spoiler

Curt Connors was decent, though turning a blind eye for 15 years to evil. He becomes insane when he uses the shot. When he gets a whiff of Peters antidote (as opposed to the serum just wearing off) he becomes good.

This wasn't as good as Xmen First Class, which was made for the same reason... get it on screen before we lose copy rights. Even so, I hope y'all will see it, make money for it, and get ready for part 2 and 3. It was worth while. I liked it better than Spidey 1 (though, not Spidey 2... still one of my all time favorites).

 

[Dastardly]

You're wanting Parker to be a sort of nerd or geek that, by and large, doesn't exist anymore.

He said he understands why he's not that kind of geek. That was not his criticism of the character.

Unfortunately, it was. It's one thing to say, "I know this thing," and it's another thing to say, "I know this thing (but what I say next will completely ignore it.)"

One of the more out-there criticisms Bob has about this incarnation of Spider-Man is that Bob draws some Twilight parallels. Why? Because Bob hates Twilight, and Bob hates this movie, so drawing parallels is only natural -- like people always trying to equate people they disagree with to Hitler.

The "similarities" Bob sees to Edward Cullen (from Twilight) are basically that this Spider-Man is an angsty teen that tends toward brooding and has a bit of a "bad boy" angry side. But Bob never stopped to consider the reason Edward Cullen is written that way, despite Meyer being an abysmal writer: It's because that's how a ton of teenage "geeks" really are.

Meyer wrote that character because it has appeal with today's teen. Because that's how today's teen acts, on average. Even the ones that hate Twilight. For all that woman gets wrong, she dialed in what teens want pretty damn well.

This movie created a more authentically "modern teen" Peter Parker, so it's only natural there would be some similarities. I mean, we haven't heard Bob complain about similarities between Batman and Wolverine (and there are many)... because he grew up with both characters.

I'm telling you: This Peter Parker acts like the kind of teenager that has been through what Peter has been through. My source is real-life teens, with whom I work all year long. And about 2/3 of them don't have both real parents, so there's an element of "broken home" in most cases, even. About 10% live with aunt/uncle or grandparents. And, since I'm a band director, most of my kids identify themselves as SOME kind of "geek," and feel a bit socially outcast.

Seriously. This Peter Parker is one of the most authentic teen (or very-early 20's) characters I've seen in a very long time. Just the right balance of smart-beyond-his-years, but not wise.

 

[VanillaBean]

Thanks for the input on Savages, was really in need of that info.

 

[honeybakedham]

ONE: Manhunter DID NOT have bad music.

TWO: See ONE.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Can someone tell me where the Starship Troopers and Godzilla comments on the first page of this thread came from?

 

[chaosyoshimage]

You're wanting Parker to be a sort of nerd or geek that, by and large, doesn't exist anymore.

He said he understands why he's not that kind of geek. That was not his criticism of the character.

Unfortunately, it was. It's one thing to say, "I know this thing," and it's another thing to say, "I know this thing (but what I say next will completely ignore it.)"

One of the more out-there criticisms Bob has about this incarnation of Spider-Man is that Bob draws some Twilight parallels. Why? Because Bob hates Twilight, and Bob hates this movie, so drawing parallels is only natural -- like people always trying to equate people they disagree with to Hitler.

The "similarities" Bob sees to Edward Cullen (from Twilight) are basically that this Spider-Man is an angsty teen that tends toward brooding and has a bit of a "bad boy" angry side. But Bob never stopped to consider the reason Edward Cullen is written that way, despite Meyer being an abysmal writer: It's because that's how a ton of teenage "geeks" really are.

Meyer wrote that character because it has appeal with today's teen. Because that's how today's teen acts, on average. Even the ones that hate Twilight. For all that woman gets wrong, she dialed in what teens want pretty damn well.

This movie created a more authentically "modern teen" Peter Parker, so it's only natural there would be some similarities. I mean, we haven't heard Bob complain about similarities between Batman and Wolverine (and there are many)... because he grew up with both characters.

I'm telling you: This Peter Parker acts like the kind of teenager that has been through what Peter has been through. My source is real-life teens, with whom I work all year long. And about 2/3 of them don't have both real parents, so there's an element of "broken home" in most cases, even. About 10% live with aunt/uncle or grandparents. And, since I'm a band director, most of my kids identify themselves as SOME kind of "geek," and feel a bit socially outcast.

Seriously. This Peter Parker is one of the most authentic teen (or very-early 20's) characters I've seen in a very long time. Just the right balance of smart-beyond-his-years, but not wise.

I wish Bob would read all of your comments and attempt to come up with some kind of rebuttal. I doubt that will happen though...

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

Why are Spider-Man and Green Lantern utter disasters, but Bob is merely "tired" of hearing about Phantom Menace and says it's merely a so-so two-and-a-half-star action film? Isn't that more or less what these are, too?

I'll tell you why. It's because Bob is a fanboy. And fair enough! He's allowed to be a fanboy! But he's a fanboy that rails against other fanboys. He's a fan of Mario, but anyone who's a fan of Halo is below him. I... guh, that feeling isn't always prominent in his videos, but when it is, it certainly mars my respect for him. Which is a shame because he is a fairly credible source of criticism... he just can't for the life of him think objectively about anything that he considers himself a "fan" of. And then when he calls other out doing the same? ...that makes him a hypocrite, then.

Can someone tell me where the Starship Troopers and Godzilla comments on the first page of this thread came from?

"Movies can survive bad acting, bad special effects, but writing, bad music," says Bob.

He put up examples of each in picto-visual form. Bad acting is accompanied by a picture of Starship Troopers. Bad special effects are accompanied by a picture of Godzilla.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I object! Starship Troopers had great acting .

No, seriously, why the Starship Troopers comparison? I love the film too, and I'm aware that it is nothing like the book, but why the out of the blue comparison?

EDIT. nevermind. I guess his bitching and droning made me phase out from watching the end of the video.

 

[Sean951]

I've seen a lot of people saying how the way the updated Peter Parker was necessary due to the current geek chic culture, and I find it kind of odd. I mean, yeah, liking Star Trek and making Hans Shot First jokes might be cool now, but that was never what Peter Parker was about. Peter Parker was always depicted as a nerd, not a geek, and there is a profound difference. Sure, on the internet there are plenty of webcomics and so on that make physics jokes and so on, but in real life, I've never actually seen a genuine nerd held up as cool. So to me, Peter Parker being an outcast because he's a massive nerd isn't an anachronism, it would be an anachronism is he was an outcast because he watched Game of Thrones and made jokes about Captain Kirk.
Nerds still aren't cool. At least not in high school.

Thank you. I never knew any geek or nerd that acted like Peter, just jackasses who were smarter than average. Most of the geeks/nerds at my school were sarcastic as all hell, but that was about it.