Escapist Podcast: 019: Batman & Blizzard Controversies

[The Escapist Staff]

019: Batman & Blizzard Controversies

This week, we discuss our thoughts on Batman: Arkham City and the language controversy. We also talk about another controversy at BlizzCon and another Escapist staff sits in today.

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[Greg Downing]

Misogyny doesn't enter into Silence of the Lambs? We must not have watched the same movie. Misogyny not only appears in, it, but Clarice *calls her boss on it* when he perpetuates it, in front of the other cops. Yes, it's not the same as '*****', but that just makes it more insidious.

The problem is not that convicts curse at Catwoman, but rather what the word implies. It is not just a female-oriented slur, it's a sexually oriented slur too. The very fact that someone talks about 'making [Batman] my *****' proves that. And it's used relentlessly. And it highlights the *very* insidious sterotype of casually using female oriented words to indicate negativity, particularly in regards to sex. Which is constantly demonized in multiple arenas, due to the double-standard between male sexuality and female sexuality.

There is a serious problem that we accept '*****' but don't accept 'n*gger' or other racial slurs. That needs to be addressed in all walks of life, not just here.

 

[LobsterFeng]

Yeah is it just me, or do T games have a lot of language these days? Granted the last T game I bought was Uncharted 2 (I don't buy very many games) and that one used the "S" word more times than I could count.

It's like they choose a particular swear and just stick with it throughout the entire game.

 

[rsvp42]

The problem is not that convicts curse at Catwoman, but rather what the word implies. It is not just a female-oriented slur, it's a sexually oriented slur too. The very fact that someone talks about 'making [Batman] my *****' proves that. And it's used relentlessly. And it highlights the *very* insidious sterotype of casually using female oriented words to indicate negativity, particularly in regards to sex. Which is constantly demonized in multiple arenas, due to the double-standard between male sexuality and female sexuality.

There is a serious problem that we accept '*****' but don't accept 'n*gger' or other racial slurs. That needs to be addressed in all walks of life, not just here.

But as they said, these are bad guys. They're not nice and they're not ones to mince words. As mentioned, there may be a case for limiting its use for reasons of creative variety, but that seems like a flimsy criticism and is more matter of taste or personal sensitivity.

I won't sit here and argue that the predominance of "*****" in media is a good thing, but at worst, it's a symptom of a larger issue and I don't think this game should be that battleground. That said, I don't even think it's a particularly bad word compared to others; I think some people are just using this as a rickety soapbox for arguing about sexism, yet there are so many more egregious examples to point at in media. Fortunately, it's a great game and I don't think this minor concern will overshadow that in the slightest.

 

[Dastardly]

019: Batman & Blizzard Controversies

This week, we discuss our thoughts on Batman: Arkham City and the language controversy. We also talk about another controversy at BlizzCon and another Escapist staff sits in today.

Watch Video

To me, the Catwoman thing is a small issue -- it's not a "torches and pitchforks" kind of a thing. But that doesn't mean it's not a flaw worth talking about for future reference, and it doesn't mean there is not some sexism present.

The fact that the characters saying it are "bad guys" doesn't excuse the writers. The fact remains that all of the female characters (even the minor ones) are characterized in the same way -- and that's from a male perspective. The only insults levied at the female characters are oriented around that.

There comes a point where a writer's technique betrays some kind of underlying flaw. I don't think anyone believes it's intentional. I also don't think the folks behind the less-reasonable female costumes in other games are intentionally trying to devalue their female characters. The "sexism" comes into play not by intentionally designing "against" women... but by unintentionally failing to consider them in the design, especially the design of female characters (or the way the game treats them).

Again, it's a small issue, but at least worth mentioning. Most of the furor surrounding it has come from the "other side" acting as though it's something that must not be mentioned! Or that if you say anything about it at all, it must be everything to you. It's a classic example of one side forcing an argument to the point of near-absurdity... but then blaming that absurdity on the other side.

 

[Valagetti]

Guest stars? Will Yahtzee show up, via phone if nesscessary.

 

[Shamanic Rhythm]

Again, it's a small issue, but at least worth mentioning. Most of the furor surrounding it has come from the "other side" acting as though it's something that must not be mentioned! Or that if you say anything about it at all, it must be everything to you. It's a classic example of one side forcing an argument to the point of near-absurdity... but then blaming that absurdity on the other side.

That's a really good point. It's not that the Catwoman part is any kind of dealbreaker, and you can certainly find some real world parallels in it. But that shouldn't be any reason why the debate should be stifled outright under some ridiculous 'you're either with us or you're against us' mentality.

There's something really incongruous about playing as Batman, whose costume is designed to terrorise his foes and has the effect of them shouting in terror or unnerved panic, and then playing as Catwoman, whose costume doesn't seem to intimidate anyone but is more fetishised and prompts them to shout correspondingly derogatory abuse at her. It's also worth noting how it's usually the female villains who end up quote unquote helping Batman at some point (such as Ivy in Arkham Asylum), because as much as you can justify their actions through the plot, the writers can never help themselves to avoid ramping up the obvious sexual tension whenever this happens. Again, none of this is any kind of dealbreaker, but it's definitely more than a little sexist.

 

[Indignator]

If you are going to discuss the Arkham City controversy, do your research. I suggest you start here:

[link]http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist/[/link]
[link]http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/hulk-vs-arkham-city-round-2-bitches-be-trippin/[/link]

It's two long articles but you should read them both to get an excellent in-depth discussion of the topic. If you are feeling particularly brave head on to the comments. The second article, posted almost a week ago, smashed all of your lazy arguments. "They're psychotic criminals", "it's lazy writing", and all the other greatest hits are covered.

 

[Vault101]

Misogyny doesn't enter into Silence of the Lambs? We must not have watched the same movie. Misogyny not only appears in, it, but Clarice *calls her boss on it* when he perpetuates it, in front of the other cops. Yes, it's not the same as '*****', but that just makes it more insidious.

The problem is not that convicts curse at Catwoman, but rather what the word implies. It is not just a female-oriented slur, it's a sexually oriented slur too. The very fact that someone talks about 'making [Batman] my *****' proves that. And it's used relentlessly. And it highlights the *very* insidious sterotype of casually using female oriented words to indicate negativity, particularly in regards to sex. Which is constantly demonized in multiple arenas, due to the double-standard between male sexuality and female sexuality.

There is a serious problem that we accept '*****' but don't accept 'n*gger' or other racial slurs. That needs to be addressed in all walks of life, not just here.

to be honest even though I havnt played that much of arkham city, I havnt noticed the "*****" thing yet

it doesnt bother me so much because I would actuatually find it weird if a bunch of thugs/criminals WERENT calling her ***** or even implying rape

 

[Vault101]

Again, it's a small issue, but at least worth mentioning. Most of the furor surrounding it has come from the "other side" acting as though it's something that must not be mentioned! Or that if you say anything about it at all, it must be everything to you. It's a classic example of one side forcing an argument to the point of near-absurdity... but then blaming that absurdity on the other side.

That's a really good point. It's not that the Catwoman part is any kind of dealbreaker, and you can certainly find some real world parallels in it. But that shouldn't be any reason why the debate should be stifled outright under some ridiculous 'you're either with us or you're against us' mentality.

There's something really incongruous about playing as Batman, whose costume is designed to terrorise his foes and has the effect of them shouting in terror or unnerved panic, and then playing as Catwoman, whose costume doesn't seem to intimidate anyone but is more fetishised and prompts them to shout correspondingly derogatory abuse at her. It's also worth noting how it's usually the female villains who end up quote unquote helping Batman at some point (such as Ivy in Arkham Asylum), because as much as you can justify their actions through the plot, the writers can never help themselves to avoid ramping up the obvious sexual tension whenever this happens. Again, none of this is any kind of dealbreaker, but it's definitely more than a little sexist.

actually in this depiction I dont mind catwomans costume, aside from being almost zipped down to her navel it actually looks more or less functionl, helping with her agility and such

I havtn looked close enough to see if she is wearing heels, (probably is, thats a given in comic books and somthing that kind of bugs me)

 

[DustyDrB]

About the World of Warcraft antagonism bleeding into real life: Look up Stanley Milgram's prison experiment. Or the case in which a teacher separated third grade students by eye color and gave one group (blue eye) more preferable treatment than the other (brown eyes).

And as a Yankees fan, I have experienced some of the overboard Yankees-Red Sox rivary. It's hard for me to do it myself, though. My roommate and one of my best friends is a Red Sox fan.

On bad voice-acting: Majin and the Forsaken Kingdom. Everyone sounds like they are from a poor quality show for toddlers.

 

[Cyfu]

Nice podcast, but am i the only one who notices that one of them breathe REALLY loud? i could hear one of them breathe almost through the whole podcast, especially when they talked about Mass effect 3. it was quite annoying>.<.

 

[Eri]

Is there any particular reason these aren't on iTunes? I could find time to listen alot easier if they were.

 

[Krotchstak]

If you are going to discuss the Arkham City controversy, do your research. I suggest you start here:

[link]http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist/[/link]
[link]http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/hulk-vs-arkham-city-round-2-bitches-be-trippin/[/link]

It's two long articles but you should read them both to get an excellent in-depth discussion of the topic. If you are feeling particularly brave head on to the comments. The second article, posted almost a week ago, smashed all of your lazy arguments. "They're psychotic criminals", "it's lazy writing", and all the other greatest hits are covered.

Except they WEREN'T smashed. Not entirely, anyways. Context is important to keep in mind. He keeps bringing up Nolan's films, but these are movies that neither make use of female characters to any great degree nor tend to focus on random thugs. "*****" is a fairly demeaning and depowering word, so it definitely makes sense that a thug who is terrified of getting his a** kicked around by a woman, and point in fact WILL get his a** kicked around by a woman, to use this word. It's a knee-jerk reaction on his unintelligent, sexist, weak part. He's trying to make himself bigger in the face of something he's terrified of, and it doesn't work because Catwoman still lays waste to him.

He also keeps talking about bits where it's "supposed to be funny", and I'm never really sure what parts he's talking about there. Maybe a thug said it like a joke? That doesn't mean it was intended to be funny to the PLAYER, it means that Rocksteady tried to give a certain character to the thug. They try to crack jokes all the time, and the jokes are never funny and never come off like they're supposed to be found funny by the player. So that aside, they only use the word in the above context, which absolutely makes sense in the game's setting. Maybe this "Hulk" (what an incredibly obnoxious way to write a post; it doesn't undo his otherwise friendly and approachable demeanor, but I found it pretty irritating)doesn't feel it appropriate, but I completely disagree.

Then again, it never struck me as an issue in the first place, so maybe there are people more sensitive to this stuff that were bugged by it. Still, I know plenty of people who normally are pretty sensitive to it that took absolutely no issue with the game, so it does kind of come off as finding sexism because you're always looking for it in everything you watch. It's like people who call James Cameron's casting of Zoe Seldana as Naitiri racist, because he said he liked her "exotic" look: sure you can find prejudice in there, but that doesn't mean it was done with prejudice in mind.

 

[Keava]

My personal problem with the swearing in that particular case is that... it's forced. It really feels like something added just to appeal to certain demographic that can't accept the fact that swear words aren't the only way to communicate.

I do not agree that those swear words are used to show that bad guys are bad. Batman never, ever needed vulgarity to portray the characters and yet you knew who was who. Swearing is just to make things obvious for, sorry but, dumb people. There is just so very little reasoning to put it in a Batman game.

Want to use all those "bad" words? Make a gritty medieval fantasy game or gang oriented game or a war game, pick a setting that will really make those words natural, because comic series usually don't need those to tell the story.

Still, the part of Asylum series that annoys me the most is the way the do portray some of the characters. As much as i enjoy the gameplay i will never forgive them for what they have done to Harley Quinn. From a cheerful and wacky character in comics and animated series she got turned into a ditzy "goth" bimbo, loosing all of her charm just because the art department at Rocksteady had a schoolgirl fantasy.

Give me back real Harley.

 

[Farther than stars]

First of all, to quote Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw: "I think you may need to get your audio equipment checked out, guys."
As for the Mass Effect thing at the end, in terms of innovation there's a big difference between becoming more action-based as the series goes on and suddenly introducing magic and excalibur. I agree with the opinion that Bioware should just stick to the path they have been going so far and use any repressed innovation from this series for their next big hit.

 

[Susan Arendt]

My personal problem with the swearing in that particular case is that... it's forced. It really feels like something added just to appeal to certain demographic that can't accept the fact that swear words aren't the only way to communicate.

I do not agree that those swear words are used to show that bad guys are bad. Batman never, ever needed vulgarity to portray the characters and yet you knew who was who. Swearing is just to make things obvious for, sorry but, dumb people. There is just so very little reasoning to put it in a Batman game.

Want to use all those "bad" words? Make a gritty medieval fantasy game or gang oriented game or a war game, pick a setting that will really make those words natural, because comic series usually don't need those to tell the story.

Still, the part of Asylum series that annoys me the most is the way the do portray some of the characters. As much as i enjoy the gameplay i will never forgive them for what they have done to Harley Quinn. From a cheerful and wacky character in comics and animated series she got turned into a ditzy "goth" bimbo, loosing all of her charm just because the art department at Rocksteady had a schoolgirl fantasy.

Give me back real Harley.

Well,that "dumb" people thing works both ways. If you're not very bright, odds are good that your vocab won't stretch too much, and you won't have all that many ways to expss your anger or frustration. I don't think it's a bad characterization to make thugs swear a lot, given at they're not supposed to be all that bright.

 

[Seamus8]

gah!! Tarren Mill... not Tauren Mill

 

[brainslurper]

Misogyny doesn't enter into Silence of the Lambs? We must not have watched the same movie. Misogyny not only appears in, it, but Clarice *calls her boss on it* when he perpetuates it, in front of the other cops. Yes, it's not the same as '*****', but that just makes it more insidious.

The problem is not that convicts curse at Catwoman, but rather what the word implies. It is not just a female-oriented slur, it's a sexually oriented slur too. The very fact that someone talks about 'making [Batman] my *****' proves that. And it's used relentlessly. And it highlights the *very* insidious sterotype of casually using female oriented words to indicate negativity, particularly in regards to sex. Which is constantly demonized in multiple arenas, due to the double-standard between male sexuality and female sexuality.

There is a serious problem that we accept '*****' but don't accept 'n*gger' or other racial slurs. That needs to be addressed in all walks of life, not just here.

Or, we call all stop being offended by racial and sexual slurs and then there will be no problem.

 

[rsvp42]

Then again, it never struck me as an issue in the first place, so maybe there are people more sensitive to this stuff that were bugged by it. Still, I know plenty of people who normally are pretty sensitive to it that took absolutely no issue with the game, so it does kind of come off as finding sexism because you're always looking for it in everything you watch. It's like people who call James Cameron's casting of Zoe Seldana as Naitiri racist, because he said he liked her "exotic" look: sure you can find prejudice in there, but that doesn't mean it was done with prejudice in mind.

That's what bugs me about this. Is all this because of this guy's rant on his blog? Because it's definitely mountains out of molehills. He even acknowledges that the game is really good and everyone should play it. And having played it myself, I'm surprised he managed two longs posts worth of text. It seems like an attempt at being a white knight for all the marginalized women of gaming, but he picked a tame example. It's a discussion worth having, and perhaps Arkham City could have a paragraph in such a discussion, but the game itself isn't a major offender.