Escapist Podcast: 75: "Toxic" BioWare Forums & Steam Sales

[KefkaCultist]

Didn't read the description ahead to see the intermission song and was very pleasantly surprised to hear a Final Fantasy IX remix.

On the topic of the notes pages in old manuals: Hey, I used to use those! Like, most times that I used them was for solving a logic puzzle in an RPG or writing down a combo in a fighting game so that I didn't have to go through the menu or something like that.

EDIT: Also used them for writing down the location of a currently-unreachable treasure chest, so that I knew where to go back to when I had the ability to get it.

 

[Murmillos]

all while allowing those key writers for said series quit to write for a (now failed "WoW-killer" clone)... and they can't understand why players are suddenly so hostile?

As if writers are the only ones responsible for determining the design of a game.

Well, the TOPIC is about how a WRITER avoids the forums...

 

[Slycne]

What is that song during the break?

It's in the description as well.

Music courtesy of "Final Fantasy IX - Vamo Alla Django" [http://ocremix.org]

 

[Farther than stars]

First of all, I think that negative feedback is probably one of the most important things in any creative medium, since even entire art movements have been responses to what came before them. In a way, applying critical thinking to the way we view the world is what art is all about. And it's definitely a worthwhile debate to have.
Secondly, I think there are two reasons that the UK has a different television-planning structure from American television. Firstly, the money to make programs for the BBC is funded by the taxpayer, so it's more about making good television and less about making a return for investors. The other reason that British (and other non-American television) is more tentative about starting long epic dramas is because of the behemoth that is the Hollywood movie industry. Because it's hard to compete in that market, non-American television has to focus on niche appeal that will probably only last for one season.

 

[Farther than stars]

can we pack in the idea that doing something just because it will make you more money, is not a bad thing? i personally couldn't disagree more.

Money is just a metaphor for our individual survival. What used to be food in nature has been transformed into currency. And our need to survive is something that is hardwired into our brain-chemistry. Of course, some of the things that people are willing to do for money is morally wrong, but that doesn't mean that the pursuit of money itself is necessarily wrong. It's quite simply natural.

Out there in the internet, thousands or millions "LotR-Fans" that never read the books (but of course listen to this podcast, because it is great) are asking themselves:
Who the hobbit is Tom Bombadil ?

Tom Bombadil is one of the coolest dudes in the Tolkin mythology. Just like Samwise Gamgee, he's one of the little guys (figuratively speaking), who cares more about life itself than the pursuits of war. I'm seriously hoping that they still introduce him in one of the next Hobbit movies.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Out there in the internet, thousands or millions "LotR-Fans" that never read the books (but of course listen to this podcast, because it is great) are asking themselves:
Who the hobbit is Tom Bombadil ?

Tom Bombadil is one of the coolest dudes in the Tolkin mythology. Just like Samwise Gamgee, he's one of the little guys (figuratively speaking), who cares more about life itself than the pursuits of war. I'm seriously hoping that they still introduce him in one of the next Hobbit movies.

My memory may be failing me but isn't Tom Bombadil that guy that basically has god mode on while in his little corner of the forest with his wife? I remember the ring not affecting him because he is his own master (or something similar to that) and some line that said that if all of Middle Earth were consumed by Sauron, that Tom's little section of forest would remain untouched.

And I think he(or his song) saves Frodo and Sam in the third book while they're captured in the tower in Mordor.

Man, it's been many a year since I've picked my brain for that info. I might even vaguely recall some of how he got there and found his wife(something about following a river but I can't remember any more than that).

I remember not liking Tom's character, he sounded like he could help the party quite a bit but chose not to. His power at that point may have been tied to that location at that time but I may be wrong in that assumption if I recalled correctly he did indeed teleport to Frodo to save him(or I could be mad and remembering that wrong) in Mordor.

 

[Farther than stars]

I remember not liking Tom's character, he sounded like he could help the party quite a bit but chose not to.

That's one of the things that I love about the character. He's pretty much the only pacifist in the book. He doesn't care for the whole grand-scale conflict. All he cares about is living out life peacefully in his nick of the woods. But then the whole Tolkien mythology is a pretty complex narrative (to understate it a lot), so yeah... even I don't remember everything about this character who is basically just a detail in such an epic adventure. Although I think house was a watermill, wasn't it? That's where you might remember the river from.

 

[-Dragmire-]

I remember not liking Tom's character, he sounded like he could help the party quite a bit but chose not to.

That's one of the things that I love about the character. He's pretty much the only pacifist in the book. He doesn't care for the whole grand-scale conflict. All he cares about is living out life peacefully in his nick of the woods. But then the whole Tolkien mythology is a pretty complex narrative (to understate it a lot), so yeah... even I don't remember everything about this character who is basically just a detail in such an epic adventure. Although I think house was a watermill, wasn't it? That's where you might remember the river from.

I saw his pacifism as a result of not needing to struggle to survive. It just rubbed me the wrong way due to the, "I'm fine, I don't need to help" vibe it gave me.

I'm sure if I read it again I'll interpret it differently, it's been over a decade since I've last read the books.

 

[Lord_Gremlin]

I can tell you for a fact - I can't use a controller with asymmetrical sticks. So 360 is and was always out of question for me. But I use PS3, Vita and PC (Logitech controllers) actively and thinking of Wii U - also symmetrical sticks.

 

[Pandabearparade]

Let me make a prediction before listening to the podcast and see how accurate I am.

They will:

1. Completely agree with David Gaider.
2. Use the word 'entitlement' or 'entitled' at least once.
3. Fail to provide the opposing position or mention Gaider's history of being a jerk on the forums equal to if not greater than most of the trolls he calls 'toxic'.

* * *

Edit after listening:

1. Mostly correct. They sided almost entirely with Gaider.
2. Nope! I was wrong about this one.
3. Mostly correct. They mentioned in passing that Gaider got "heated".

 

[klown]

Can I just say, Ma'idah Lashani has an amazing sounding voice. She could read the dictionary and I'd listen intently all the time.

 

[Pandabearparade]

One point they made was just objectively false. Dragon Age: Origins outsold Dragon Age 2 by well over a million copies, and most of Dragon Age 2's sales were based on the rollover love from Dragon Age: Origins. The idea that their shift to a more "button awesome" style made the game a big hit is just wrong.

 

[Pinky's Brain]

The problem is that they just aren't making games for the demographic which predominantly populates the forum (PC gamers). There really is no discussion possible when the majority of the forum wants "no paraphrasing and less autodialogue" and when the developers want "paraphrasing and more autodialogue" for instance. There is no constructive criticism possible ... it's just purely opposing views. Throw that on top of the back to back disappointments of DA2 and ME3 and you get negativity and pessimism.

 

[carpathic]

Let me make a prediction before listening to the podcast and see how accurate I am.

They will:

1. Completely agree with David Gaider.
2. Use the word 'entitlement' or 'entitled' at least once.
3. Fail to provide the opposing position or mention Gaider's history of being a jerk on the forums equal to if not greater than most of the trolls he calls 'toxic'.

* * *

Edit after listening:

1. Mostly correct. They sided almost entirely with Gaider.
2. Nope! I was wrong about this one.
3. Mostly correct. They mentioned in passing that Gaider got "heated".

I had a similar set of expectations and was surprised by the balance. Given that during the ME3 ending controversy The Escapist sided nearly unanimously (except Jim) with Bioware and joined in with Kotaku in referring to people expressing their dislike of the ending as being entitled (lost a LOT of my respect).

Ultimately, the problem is not just the fan, Bioware needs to learn how to set up the forum to channel comments and make them useful. Failing that, they should at least be happy that fans care enough about the product to RAGE about them. Soliciting that level of anger indicates that fans are tied up and involved. Bioware though has seized onto this victim role, and now they seem to feel a strange entitlement to act without criticism, and that people will just continually suck down the increasingly pablumized games they shove down our throat. ME3 ruined the damn series. ME had such promise, it was then diluted for ME2 and destroyed in the 3rd. Bioware should've recognized this, owned it and fixed it. Instead they essentially told fans to "suck it, we're artists".

Now they are angry that the forums are toxic? Could this be a reflection of their own attitudes?

 

[BloodSquirrel]

The problem is that they just aren't making games for the demographic which predominantly populates the forum (PC gamers). There really is no discussion possible when the majority of the forum wants "no paraphrasing and less autodialogue" and when the developers want "paraphrasing and more autodialogue" for instance. There is no constructive criticism possible ... it's just purely opposing views. Throw that on top of the back to back disappointments of DA2 and ME3 and you get negativity and pessimism.

No, the problem is that Bioware's PR is run by idiots and assholes who are constantly stoking the flames.

First off, they've got a wee bit of an honesty problem. Instead of just openly saying "We're going after a larger demographic, and that might mean that we're not making the kind of game you want from us anymore," they keep insisting that they totally are still going after the demographic. They reveal things that point toward their next game having paraphrasing and more autodialogue, then deny that the game will have paraphrasing and more autodialogue, then the game does have paraphrasing and more autodialogue. The fans had DAII pegged for what it was as soon as it was announced. Bioware told them they were wrong. They weren't. This kind of pisses people off.

Second, their response to criticism has been consistent passive-aggressive arrogance. They never just admit to having made a mistake, they have to talk about how many people liked their mistake first, then imply that it wasn't really a mistake, and that the reason that people think it's a mistake is because they're cretins, but that Bioware is so gregarious that they're going to take their stupid little opinions into consideration anyway.

Third, Bioware is far too willing to openly insult its fans. As the developer, they need to act like the adult in the room. They don't. When one of your writers says something stupid on your forums that gets everyone pissed off at her, tell her to put a lid on it. Don't let her go out and respond with something that you average forum troll would be embarrassed to have to their name. You're the company with the professional reputation on the line. Don't let people who can't take the heat speak in the name of your company.

Bioware is a company that has been on a long slide toward mediocrity and below for a while now, but that's nothing new. Plenty of companies have done that. Bioware has gone the extra mile to turn every misstep into an explosion of internet rage by acting like a bunch of snotty auteurs and forum trolls.

 

[Flavio Kuperman]

I think we need to stop calling out people who get upset when a company makes a deliberately controversial move in order to monetize. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make money, but when they have a popular franchise like DA or ME, they typically have a lot of people who become attached to that product... if the company deliberately chooses to pursue monetization over keeping their fans happy, then they should expect a backlash; expecting anything else, or, worse, dismissing the backlash, is a stupid thing to do which ends up making people even more upset. If they voluntarily choose to, say, abandon their fans in order to reach a more lucrative demographic, then why on their right mind should the fans not be upset??

I want to respect the escapist cast, but I lose a tremendous amount of trust in their journalism whenever they attempt to justify BioWare's poor PR or when they seem to imply that the consumer is not justified to be upset when BioWare or EA pull a foul move at the consumer's expense. The worst case scenario is to let companies that play dirty get away with it, and it seems that cast of the escapist does this regularly... come on guys, take the moral stance on this, please.

 

[awdrifter]

Bioware's decline is definitely due to EA. The decision to force people to play MP to get the best ending or even the decision to put MP in ME3 at all is most likely forced by EA. While I hate EA as a gamer, this is what a good business should do. They buy up studios with good potentials, then milk them for all they can, after they milked them dry and all the creative forces left, they will shut down the studio. But by that time they already made money out of the deal, so they will just find another studio with potential and do it all over again. This is much easier to do than to nurture a studio and keep them making top quality games at a lower margin. So I'd say to the Bioware staff that says the forums are toxic, either don't read it or don't work for EA.

 

[Pinky's Brain]

Bioware's decline is definitely due to EA. The decision to force people to play MP to get the best ending or even the decision to put MP in ME3 at all is most likely forced by EA.

It was handled by a different team, so it is unlikely to have taken much focus away at Bioware. Also the best ending wasn't good ...

EA caused a lot of the problems with DA2 by rushing it, but any rushing in ME3 is completely overshadowed by the atrocious writing which did a 180 degree turn into grim dark. If EA forced multiplayer then I must thank EA, because it was the only reason I did not regret my purchase.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

Just as an aside, the Gamecube microcon controller by Mad Kat's is my most favorite controller ever.

And nice appearance Nasrin!