ESO's character creation is not praiseworthy, it's lazy

[Lotet]

Lazy? Yes.

True to the lore? Yes.

I imagine that is the defence they would use for the 'generalised' look of the different playable races. This has been true in the Elder Scrolls games I have played, all very humanoid races, bar perhaps a tail, or different feet or slightly smaller or bigger.

I mean the most different are probably the more animalistic like Khajit or Argonian or Orc, but still, mostly, these are humanoid shaped.

They don't really have races like Tauren or complete alternatives like Geth or droids, or even tiny races like halflings or gnomes. They just aren't apparent in the universe created.

It does make for a more boring approach to character design, granted, but it is also true to how its always been. I can imagine people complaining if they had made up races to diversify the portfolio too, people would moan for them thinking they could 'mess with the lore' etc.

The Khajiit used to be more cat-like though. I believe they have a few in game books from Oblivion and Skyrim that say there are many variations of Khajiit that range from normal cat, sabertooth sized cat, half half and the very human ones. So they just explained that all the ones you meet were just the latter kind as they are by far the most likely to visit other regions. Does ESO let you go to Elswyr? How many variants are there?

Not that it really matters to me...

 

[00slash00]

I don't think it's bad or good enough to be worth mentioning. It's fine but pretty average by current standards. It isn't exceptional by any means, but it isn't as lame as games like TOR either. One thing that does bother me, and this is about character creators in general, is that it is more and more common to be able to customize the sex appeal (if I remember correctly, Dragon Prophet had 4 or 5 sliders for customizing the shape, size, and lift of female breasts and at least two for the butt) but it is rare to be able to make an overweight female character. I'm fine with having the option to make your character look like a porn star, but it's a pet peeve of mine to have the option to make fat male characters but not female characters

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Wildstar may feel like WoW but they aren't trying to kill WoW

It doesn't feel remotely like WoW.

And Wildstar has a far, far better chance of killing Wildstar than killing WoW.

 

[Nazulu]

Yes, I am dismissing his evidently uninformed argument. It's his prerogative to form conclusions on things based on YouTube videos. It's also his prerogative to make screeds about them on public forums. At which point it becomes my prerogative to criticize his hastily leapt-to conclusions. I'm sorry if you feel that critique of someone's argument is "disrespectful". Should I have bought him a corsage first?

Such a passive aggressive post, just like the one you started with.

"I think we need more in-depth reviews from people slamming games they've never played. They're super informative"

Is there any need for this attitude? Makes me think he insulted something dear to you. And you haven't proven any thing is hastily to anyone yet.

Actually I spoke pretty frankly about the game, outlining the ways in which it succeeds, and the ways in which it falters. I called it "flawed" and "not for everyone" and specifically suggested that people looking for certain things NOT buy it. If you choose to view that as "biased defense", or color me as a fanboy, you may do so.

You're kidding right? Are we meant to know this from other threads where you have discussed this? I'm glad you try to be fair with your recommendations, but what you did here isn't fair.

How the hell is this a defense? He's criticising the bloody game like anyone is allowed to do. I'm sure the developers don't want to hear any criticism at all.

A) I'm pretty sure the developers aren't scouring the Escapist looking for feedback from one guy that their entire animation/texture/character mesh system is substandard, and that their game is "visually bland". What are you imagining here? That they'd stumble across it, throw the brakes on launch, and overhaul the entire game at the cost of millions of dollars, all the while feverishly consulting with CloudAtlas on how an MMO should look and how the Elder Scrolls visual style should be re-imagined?

B) Did I tell him he "wasn't allowed" to criticize the game? Did I silence him? I suggested that offering weighty opinions on things you haven't actually experienced is a bit foolish. That's called "feed back". If people don't want feedback they shouldn't be posting in public spaces.

C) I'm not "defending" anything. That would imply he and I were having a heated debate about the quality of an in-game element in a game he never played. That would be a preposterous waste of time for both of us.

A) What!? How can you see this as a point? I've already addressed this. He's explaining his view, something any one is allowed to do. Nothing is above criticism. Also, you have to start of somewhere before something can catch on.

B) You're next point isn't well thought out either. What you said is poor feed back then. The only thing I learnt from you is that you are displeased with people crticising something in game when they haven't played it (something he admitted for fuck sake). And once again, you could of easily debunk his point if you know more, which is what you should've done. You want to make someone look like a fool, this is the best way to do it.

C) I said that as an example for bias, because of your aggressive tone. And how is this not a waste of time? Like I said, you would of actually got your message through by now by explaining why he's wrong rather than just using this cop out by labeling him as ignorant without discussing the topic. You were off topic from the start, don't forget.

I believe you should just stop and think for a bit. You're not making strong enough points to convince any one.

 

[Kieve]

True to the lore? Yes.

-Not entirely. Morrowind's beast races were properly beast-like (although the animations were pretty awful). It's been stated multiple places in lore that there are Khajiit forms that walk digitigrade, and however you look at it, the Khajiit tails in ESO are way too long and thin.

The laziness is true to form though - Oblivion and Skyrim went back to a shared model out of convenience, since it's easier to develop armor and clothing for one skeleton than three or four. It's a time/effort-saving decision using the lore to excuse and justify it.

As complaints go, it's on the lower end of the spectrum I suppose, but I'm a dedicated Khajiit player and things like this irk the hell out of me.

*Note: I did participate in multiple late-stage betas and have a solid working first-hand knowledge of character creation.

 

[Isra]

I was kind of annoyed to find that they had beautified elves as well. Traditionally elves have been kind of hideous in TES games, sporting super elongated, sharply featured ultra thin faces and strangely shaped eyes.

Now they just look like Legolas. More appealing that way I guess. Might as well just break down the walls that differentiate TES from every other Tolkien inspired fantasy title ever.

Maybe I'm just mad 'cause I really enjoyed killing those hideous bastards

Before:

Spoiler

After:

Spoiler

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Such a passive aggressive post, just like the one you started with.

Really? Settle down.

Is there any need for this attitude? Makes me think he insulted something dear to you. And you haven't proven any thing is hastily to anyone yet.

Yes, I know. You're hungry to establish bias.

You're kidding right? Are we meant to know this from other threads where you have discussed this? I'm glad you try to be fair with your recommendations, but what you did here isn't fair.

You were the one who started referencing me "defending" the game in other threads, guy. I'm not sure where this "you're kidding right" mock offense is coming from now.

I've seen you defending the game before, should I assume you're a fan?

Try to keep your position consistent, please.

A) What!? How can you see this as a point? I've already addressed this. He's explaining his view, something any one is allowed to do. Nothing is above criticism. Also, you have to start of somewhere before something can catch on.

I'm confused. Nothing is above criticism, except the OP?

I said that as an example for bias, because of your aggressive tone. And how is this not a waste of time? Like I said, you would of actually got your message through by now by explaining why he's wrong rather than just using this cop out by labeling him as ignorant without discussing the topic. You were off topic from the start, don't forget.

I believe you should just stop and think for a bit. You're not making strong enough points to convince any one.

I'm not remotely interesting in "convincing" you of anything. You seem to be laboring under the illusion that you and I are having some kind of debate. You are attacking me for criticizing the OP, and I calmly responding to you. That's all that is happening.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I was kind of annoyed to find that they had beautified elves as well.

There are traditionally "lumpy" elves in the game as well, and it's quite easy to create them in the character creator. It is, however, also possible to create a "soft" or "beautiful" elf, so naturally that's exactly what everyone did. =\

 

[CloudAtlas]

I am an Elder Scrolls fan since Morrowind and so I believe I have invested enough money and time in the series to have the right to say something about Elder Scrolls. I am totally open to an Elder Scrolls MMO, I'm just disappointed about this Elder Scrolls MMO.

Then I'm certain you're aware that the visual design and mesh for the many humanoid races of Tamriel has ALWAYS been like this, and the game is being faithful to the IP. I'm a bit confused about your outrage.

If you asked Todd Howard about why all races have the same body and the same animations, what do you think is the more likely answer?

1) Because that's exactly how we've always envisioned those races. We wanted to create distinctly non-human races, like cat and lizard people, but the body should be exactly identical to a human body except for different textures and a tail.

2) Because it's cheaper to create just one skeleton and just one set of animations for it, and we felt our money was better spent elswewhere because doesn't impact the experience of the player that much for this and that reason. Like, you rarely see your own body in first person view, you rarely see many characters at once on the screen and from the first person perspective so the sameness is not as apparent.

Of course Matt Firor could give the same answer, but seeing that his game is an MMO inteded to be played in third person (not that the sanimations seem to look any better in first person), you will be seeing your own character a lot more, all the time instead of almost never to be precise, and you will be seeing other characters a lot more, so the negative impact on the player experience is larger. Also, ESO was released two and a half years later than Skyrim, so I don't think it is unreasonable to hope for some progress in temrs of visual fidelity at least where it does not negatively impact performance,

Yet you're not denying anything I've said.

How can I "deny" your opinion? Why would I want to debate the quality of in-game elements with someone who has a fully formed conclusion about them despite never seeing them? [/quote]

If I see someone else playing, in full HD, how did I "not see" the visuals?

Nevertheless, if it makes you happy...I disagree. The game is not "visually bland". There's actually quite a bit of visual distinction between the races, not just in texture work but in their individual racial weapons/armor, the style of their dwellings, etc. The character creation is strong, and the game has some of the better looking character models in MMOs.

The animations are pretty scrotty though. I also suspect the game drops animation frames as a way of dealing with a lot of on-screen individuals, because it seems to vary in quality. This is also an Elder Scrolls staple (ever try playing Skyrim in 3rd person?) but isn't really something the game should get a pass on.

So you are agreeing. The only way in which the character models are different is textures (and heads & tails). Thanks. I never said that the one model that is there is bad, I never said anything about dwellings or weapons or armors (not in this regard anyway). What I said about blandness was merely a suspicion, a conjecture, and clearly indicated as such.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

If you asked Todd Howard about why all races have the same body and the same animations, what do you think is the more likely answer?

1) Because that's exactly how we've always envisioned those races. We wanted to create distinctly non-human races, like cat and lizard people, but the body should be exactly identical to a human body except for different textures and a tail.

2) Because it's cheaper to create just one skeleton and just one set of animations for it, and we felt our money was better spent elswewhere because doesn't impact the experience of the player that much for this and that reason. Like, you rarely see your own body in first person view, you rarely see many characters at once on the screen and from the first person perspective so the sameness is not as apparent.

Obviously two, I'm not a moron. What I don't understand, then, is why your post is not entitled "Why are all ES races so uniformly human" or something along those lines, instead of an imprecation towards this particular title. If you've spent a lot of time playing MMOs, and then spent 10 minutes with ESO's character creator, you would find it to be above average for the genre, which would likely answer the question as to why it is "widely praised". Since you finish your OP with a dig at the price, and admitted you never played it, I'm sure you can appreciate why it sounds like you're grinding an axe?

but seeing that his game is an MMO inteded to be played in third person

What the hell gave you that idea? It defaults to first person when you first start the game. You're aware not all MMOs are played in third person, right?

Also, ESO was released two and a half years later than Skyrim, so I don't think it is unreasonable to hope for some progress in temrs of visual fidelity at least where it does not negatively impact performance

MMOs are usually a bit strapped visually compared to their single player counterparts, due to resources (lots of people on screen at the same time) and development time. Generally speaking expect them to look anywhere from 2-5 years older than they are. I still don't excuse the game for rinky-dink animations, but if you were expecting next-gen 2014 graphics then it was a false hope from the get-go.

So you are agreeing. The only way in which the character models are different is textures (and heads & tails). Thanks. I never said that the one model that is there is bad, I never said anything about dwellings or weapons or armors (not in this regard anyway). What I said about blandness was merely a suspicion, a conjecture, and clearly indicated as such.

I'm agreeing with ONE thing from your OP, and strenuously disagreeing with others. I continue to maintain you chose a deliberately inflammatory title, and I'm curious why of all the things you could be talking about on a gaming forum you chose specifically to slam a game you've never actually played when your criticism applies to the entire series, which you're apparently quite familiar with.

And in all honesty, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of people who have never played the fucking thing jumping on the groupthink circlejerk about what a catastrophe it is. The "Should I buy it" thread was full of total bullshit and misinformation, all of it issued by people who either never played it or played a few hours of beta half a year ago. So it's possible you caught some leftover irritation from that thread. My apologies.

 

[RoonMian]

-snip-

Now that you explained that to me, Wildstar DOES sound all kinds of awesome. I only played the beta a bit and thought: "Yes, this is exactly like the 2 weeks I played WoW and it has no bugs."

Besides: Baby, don't hurt me. Don't hurt me. No more.

I was kind of annoyed to find that they had beautified elves as well.

There are traditionally "lumpy" elves in the game as well, and it's quite easy to create them in the character creator. It is, however, also possible to create a "soft" or "beautiful" elf, so naturally that's exactly what everyone did. =\

Besides technically, the orcs are elves as well. So much for "beautified".

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Besides technically, the orcs are elves as well. So much for "beautified".

Well, they're Mer. They're not exactly "Elves", per se. Actually scratch that, according to this Mer basically means "Elf". Orcs ARE Elves. Huh.

Also Orcs can be beautiful too! Poor Orcs.

Wildstar is buggy as hell, btw. Not sure how you got the impression there were "no bugs". You must have been very fortunate. Probably the 2nd buggiest MMO beta I've ever been involved in, behind only Vanguard.

 

[Nazulu]

Such a passive aggressive post, just like the one you started with.

Really? Settle down.

Is this meant to be an answer for something?

Yes, I know. You're hungry to establish bias.

Want to explain this too? What do you know?

You were the one who started referencing me "defending" the game in other threads, guy. I'm not sure where this "you're kidding right" mock offense is coming from now.

I've seen you defending the game before, should I assume you're a fan?

Try to keep your position consistent, please.

Once again, that was an example of how we can see bias in people. You remember what I originally quoted that for.

You're evidently annoyed the game exists, you're clearly irked about the pricing, and you've seen some videos that have fueled your confirmation bias,

Do you remember what I said to that, and what I said after that? how they connected?

Oh, and now you're offended. You started of hostile and now you want absolute respect? Consistency indeed

I'm confused. Nothing is above criticism, except the OP?

We're not talking about the criticism of the OP mate, we're talking about your aggressive stance and why it was uncalled for, and also how to make someone actually look the fool, which you failed miserably in doing.

I'm not remotely interesting in "convincing" you of anything. You seem to be laboring under the illusion that you and I are having some kind of debate. You are attacking me for criticizing the OP, and I calmly responding to you. That's all that is happening.

WHAT! You are trying to be convincing to how the OP is foolish and trying to justify your hostility. And you are the one to attack first with your pointless passive aggressive first post here. You weren't calm with any thing. You were even being sarcastic with me.

You know what I think is happening, you already know all this and just saying whatever to get out of it. I'll do you the favour if you want. Everyone can see what you started and how poor you are in defending it. I think my work is done.

 

[8bitmaster]

From all the Elder Scrolls games, character creation really isn't the key, as it wasn't all that intuitive. If you want to see good character creation, see something like Aion or PSO2 where not only do the facial sliders actually give an effect, you can customize the entire body just as well. In Aion I see midgets running around. In all reality, were you really expecting much from an elder scrolls character creator?

For reference (and because I can't embed for crap)
Aion character creator: http://youtu.be/RXBeEEnwzig?t=2m55s
PSO2 character creator: http://youtu.be/78Oirni2Rao?t=3m14s

 

[A-D.]

Besides technically, the orcs are elves as well. So much for "beautified".

Well, they're Mer. They're not exactly "Elves", per se. Actually scratch that, according to this Mer basically means "Elf". Orcs ARE Elves. Huh.

Also Orcs can be beautiful too! Poor Orcs.

Wildstar is buggy as hell, btw. Not sure how you got the impression there were "no bugs". You must have been very fortunate. Probably the 2nd buggiest MMO beta I've ever been involved in, behind only Vanguard.

I think the problem with "beauty" is..well the Elves look too elvish, too "smooth and perfect" as it were. That doesnt mean they should all be ugly bastards, but rather that they shouldnt by default be able to look better than anyone else. Going by what i've seen its entirely possible to turn them into the "fairest of all beings" rather than just another humanoid race which looks vaguely human, well more so than argonians and khajit do anyhow.

Also yes, Orcs are Mer, hence Orsimer. There's actually several species of Mer that havent been seen in the game itself yet, well to a degree. The Dwemer being pretty much extinct, the Falmer basicly looking nothing like what they might have looked like before (I dont count Dawnguard because the uncorrupted Falmer are just white-skinned Altmer) and the Maomer havent actually been shown yet.

However character creation is lazy in the concept that the underlying mesh-skeleton is basicly the same, which means they dont have to make a seperate one for every race, or at least not for every "species" given there is several types of Humans and Mer. They might offer more options than however many WoW offers for example, but that doesnt exactly make it "new" or "better". Age of Conan had boob/muscle sliders, limited as they were. Aion had a massive amount of customization despite only giving two races which technically are only seperated by minor details.

So really, ESO's Character Creator is what you should expect nowadays, but its nothing that would blow you away with options that havent been seen elsewhere before in some form or another. Though we shouldnt bash the game for having it, but we can fault it for not going the extra-mile and innovating a little more. That leaves us with a mediocre MMO rather than one which could be excellent.

 

[Nazulu]

I'm agreeing with ONE thing from your OP, and strenuously disagreeing with others. I continue to maintain you chose a deliberately inflammatory title, and I'm curious why of all the things you could be talking about on a gaming forum you chose specifically to slam a game you've never actually played when your criticism applies to the entire series, which you're apparently quite familiar with.

And in all honesty, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of people who have never played the fucking thing jumping on the groupthink circlejerk about what a catastrophe it is. The "Should I buy it" thread was full of total bullshit and misinformation, all of it issued by people who either never played it or played a few hours of beta half a year ago. So it's possible you caught some leftover irritation from that thread. My apologies.

Uh huh, so we've established you were aggressive, and so apologised. Then we're done with what we were talking about.

Now I want to know how his title is a deliberately inflammatory title?

 

[Isra]

Besides technically, the orcs are elves as well. So much for "beautified".

OK, fine, if you want to get specific, the Bosmer, Altmer and Dunmer have been beautified. Happy?
You could have gone a step further and cited the Falmer, but I think you understand what I'm really trying to say. I assumed people would understand that I wasn't referring to physically corrupted Mer.

My only point was that they changed some of the Mer races into more Tolkienesque elves (i.e., beautiful humans with pointed ears) in what I assume is an attempt to balance population numbers. Bosmer, Altmer and Dunmer have traditionally been strikingly different in appearance to the Human races (like in the screenshots I posted) but they have closed the gap a lot in ESO.

Whatever the case may be, I didn't think ESO's character creator was bad or lazy. I also didn't think it was very much above what we should expect from this generation. Like everything else in ESO, I personally found it to be mediocre.

 

[funksobeefy]

True to the lore? Yes.

I imagine that is the defence they would use for the 'generalised' look of the different playable races. This has been true in the Elder Scrolls games I have played, all very humanoid races, bar perhaps a tail, or different feet or slightly smaller or bigger.

well in Morrowind both the Cats and Lizards had completly differnt walking styles, their legs, were backwards jointed legs and a very awkward walking animation. they were very hunched over. they also were unable to wear boots because of their feat size. So yes they are differnt. it seams that over time they became more and more simplified, as was everything in the Elder Scolls.

Also to the OP, you should play a game before ripping into it, sure you watched a person on youtube scroll a bar to the left or right but that deost qualify you to post on the internet about it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Is this meant to be an answer for something?

No, it's a request for you to settle down. Alas, it appears to have gone unheeded.

Want to explain this too? What do you know?

There's nothing there that needs to be explained. "You are hungry to establish bias" is perfectly self-explanatory.

Once again, that was an example of how we can see bias in people. You remember what I originally quoted that for.

Do you remember what I said to that, and what I said after that? how they connected?

This is side-barring, again. You were evidently aware I'd made posts on the game elsewhere, and were evidently aware of their content. As I made a couple of posts on the subject in ONE thread, you must have been familiar with them. So I continue to fail to understand why you would feign confusion about how you could possibly be aware of posts I'd made elsewhere on the subject.

Oh, and now you're offended. You started of hostile and now you want absolute respect? Consistency indeed.

Where did I say I was "offended"? I asked for you to maintain a consistent position. Speaking to someone who continually shifts the parameters of the conversation so they can continue to attack you is tiresome.

We're not talking about the criticism of the OP mate, we're talking about your aggressive stance and why it was uncalled for, and also how to make someone actually look the fool, which you failed miserably in doing.

I appreciate both your unofficial forum moderation and your application of whatever metric you've devised to properly determine whether someone has been successful in "making someone actually look the fool", but in the future you can just report my post if you feel it's "aggressive", and I wasn't doing anything of the sort.

WHAT! You are trying to be convincing to how the OP is foolish and trying to justify your hostility.

Define "hostility". Also, pointing out that a particular action or statement is foolish is not equivalent to implying someone is a fool.

And you are the one to attack first with your pointless passive aggressive first post here. You weren't calm with any thing. You were even being sarcastic with me.

Yes I am aware that I am being sarcastic with you. Is sarcasm something you find uniquely enraging?

You know what I think is happening, you already know all this and just saying whatever to get out of it. I'll do you the favour if you want. Everyone can see what you started and how poor you are in defending it. I think my work is done.

I do? What am I trying to "get out of", exactly? This conversation? I'm happy to conclude it whenever you are. You seem to feel some "work" you've set out to do has been accomplished, whatever that was, so I assume your mission is complete?

However if you want to continue berating me, as I suspect you do, we might consider moving it to private messages? You can tell me all about your "work" here on the forums and what "everyone" realizes, and we can stop derailing the thread with...whatever this is.

 

[JayRPG]

Wildstar may feel like WoW but they aren't trying to kill WoW

It doesn't feel remotely like WoW.

And Wildstar has a far, far better chance of killing Wildstar than killing WoW.

I think you need to re-read my post, I said that they aren't trying to kill WoW.. I actually said it is not a WoW killer (there is no such thing).

And coming from a person who's been in the closed beta for nearly a year, and played WoW in a top 250 US guild from Vanilla to Cataclysm - Wildstar DOES feel like WoW, in some ways, specifically the engine and therefore the mechanics feel similar; The difference comes in the telegraph system which adds a layer of depth that WoW doesn't have.

Feeling like WoW is a good thing, if you read my post properly instead of skimming it and somehow extrapolating that I called Wildstar a WoW killer, you would know why it is a good thing.

And just because you're rushing to the defence of ESO doesn't mean you have to put down another game, and besides, ESO will NEVER be anything that the hardcore PvE community will want to touch with a 50ft pole and that's not a bad thing, it just isn't ESO's focus, ESO is more about large-scale PvP plus their engine and combat style doesn't lend itself to challenging raid content.