Europa Universalis 4: Too Eurocentric

[Spacewolf]

Derailing history is always the most fun part. Nothing like seeing the face of the french-spanish eperor when the Cherokee nations land on his shores to manifest destiny his ass.
Works even better if you import a CK2 savegame file where crazy stuff happened, like a powerful transatlantic Aztec empire, a United Islamic Republic or a stable Mongolian alliance with Rome as the capital.

Was the CK2 Americas an expansion pack or something early on I kept getting reports about "Skarlings" or whatever the Norse called the Natives, but then nothing came of it even after I've been playing long enough to take over half the map.

For the OP yea this has come before especially with Europeans getting an innate bonus to research and the general consensus was that the game sticks to History as much as possible forcing you to really push if you want to derail it. So this was just a gameplay mechanic to simulate something the cause of whoch is still quite a debated topic from what I hear.

 

[Kathinka]

Derailing history is always the most fun part. Nothing like seeing the face of the french-spanish eperor when the Cherokee nations land on his shores to manifest destiny his ass.
Works even better if you import a CK2 savegame file where crazy stuff happened, like a powerful transatlantic Aztec empire, a United Islamic Republic or a stable Mongolian alliance with Rome as the capital.

Was the CK2 Americas an expansion pack or something early on I kept getting reports about "Skarlings" or whatever the Norse called the Natives, but then nothing came of it even after I've been playing long enough to take over half the map.

For the OP yea this has come before especially with Europeans getting an innate bonus to research and the general consensus was that the game sticks to History as much as possible forcing you to really push if you want to derail it. So this was just a gameplay mechanic to simulate something the cause of whoch is still quite a debated topic from what I hear.

Yeah, the "Sunset Invasion" Addon brought the Aztec empire with their very inheritance mechanic and Religion (in which they regularly had to sacrifice population and nobles, or piety and moral authority would plummet) landing on the west coast of Europe. Rajas of India additionally expands the map eastwards all the way to the border to China.

While we are on the topic of crazy Paradox-Games-Stories: In CK2 my character was a duke and secretly diddling the Kings wife. One time, the King went off to crusade in the holy land, and I got her pregnant. I could already see my head rolling and all my lands and vassals be confiscated by the crown. But the King, while blessed with a strong Muslim-killing arm, wasn't exactly a renaissance man of mind and assumed that the child was his. While on crusade for four years. Yeah. But the Mayhem continues. When "his" daughter (who also had inherited the "quick" trait from my character, to make it even more ridiculous) turned 16, he ordered my son and heir (her de facto brother!) to marry her. I as his vassal had no way of refusing.
Now, nine generations later, I'm still trying to get rid of what I call the "three thumb problem" in the dynasty bloodline..

 

[Neonit]

The cool thing about EU is that you can very easily mod the tech groups - its just a text file. Better yet, im pretty sure there are already mods that do just that.

Incidentally, ottomans are OP, Najd has an awesome idea group, if im not mistaken China can get around tech penalty by using eunuchs, there are playthroughs of people conquering the world using Ryukyu.....

And lets remember that if you are in a lower tech group, you will be surrounded with people with the same tech group.

Besides, some tech groups have advantages. For example - higher cavalry to infantry ratio.

EU is build in a way that playing countries that did well (France, Spain, England, Germany) is considered "easier".
If you want challenge, you play some of the more difficult countries. You can still win (see Ryukyu - one province minor, with weak tech and surrounded by huge countries the likes of China and Japan - oh, did i mention that you are an island, so you need boats that you cant afford?) but you have to play smart.

So in summary - play western countries if the best strategy you can come up with is "FRANCE SMASH! ARGH!", play other countries if you can handle it.

Therefore i come up with a completely different conclusion than you - "West dumb, cant win without bonuses!"

 

[Fractral]

While we are on the topic of crazy Paradox-Games-Stories: In CK2 my character was a duke and secretly diddling the Kings wife. One time, the King went off to crusade in the holy land, and I got her pregnant. I could already see my head rolling and all my lands and vassals be confiscated by the crown. But the King, while blessed with a strong Muslim-killing arm, wasn't exactly a renaissance man of mind and assumed that the child was his. While on crusade for four years. Yeah. But the Mayhem continues. When "his" daughter (who also had inherited the "quick" trait from my character, to make it even more ridiculous) turned 16, he ordered my son and heir (her de facto brother!) to marry her. I as his vassal had no way of refusing.
Now, nine generations later, I'm still trying to get rid of what I call the "three thumb problem" in the dynasty bloodline..

The next CK2 expansion should be adding more crazy things like that which you can do, especially the ability to choose who you want to have affairs with and other such things. Hopefully they also implement a mechanic whereby you can't get someone pregrant unless you're in the same location as them, as in the Game of Thrones mod. It can get quite ridiculous- in my last Romuvan game I managed to have about a dozen children to my wife and concubines over 10 years while my character was in a non-stop series of wars subjugating the Slavs and Tengri nations.
I think PDX have finally given in and accepted that CK2 is really best played as a Feudal Drama Simulator. Playing nice can be fun, but playing as someone who sleeps with his son's wives, has 3 kindapped concubines and spends his time looting Catholic castles and making off with their women is just hilarious.

 

[Kathinka]

While we are on the topic of crazy Paradox-Games-Stories: In CK2 my character was a duke and secretly diddling the Kings wife. One time, the King went off to crusade in the holy land, and I got her pregnant. I could already see my head rolling and all my lands and vassals be confiscated by the crown. But the King, while blessed with a strong Muslim-killing arm, wasn't exactly a renaissance man of mind and assumed that the child was his. While on crusade for four years. Yeah. But the Mayhem continues. When "his" daughter (who also had inherited the "quick" trait from my character, to make it even more ridiculous) turned 16, he ordered my son and heir (her de facto brother!) to marry her. I as his vassal had no way of refusing.
Now, nine generations later, I'm still trying to get rid of what I call the "three thumb problem" in the dynasty bloodline..

The next CK2 expansion should be adding more crazy things like that which you can do, especially the ability to choose who you want to have affairs with and other such things. Hopefully they also implement a mechanic whereby you can't get someone pregrant unless you're in the same location as them, as in the Game of Thrones mod. It can get quite ridiculous- in my last Romuvan game I managed to have about a dozen children to my wife and concubines over 10 years while my character was in a non-stop series of wars subjugating the Slavs and Tengri nations.
I think PDX have finally given in and accepted that CK2 is really best played as a Feudal Drama Simulator. Playing nice can be fun, but playing as someone who sleeps with his son's wives, has 3 kindapped concubines and spends his time looting Catholic castles and making off with their women is just hilarious.

Exactly! The most fun with CK2 happens when shit goes terribly wrong or unexpected. It's no fun to raise a huge empire and hold it for 400 years. I also like to roleplay my characters a little bit, build churches with the pious guys, chop off heads left and right with wrathful guys, spawn hordes and hordes of bastards with my lustful characters..usually bites me in the ass later when half of Europe has shiny claims in my stuff.

Good read: http://crusaderkings-two.wikia.com/wiki/How_to_lose_Crusader_Kings_2

 

[BoogieManFL]

I was turned away by the time limit on the game. I understand why it is there, but it's gotta suck when you still want to do more and that end turn is beginning to creep up on you.

 

[Frission]

I was turned away by the time limit on the game. I understand why it is there, but it's gotta suck when you still want to do more and that end turn is beginning to creep up on you.

I only finished an Europa Universalis game twice and I've sunk several hours with around dozens of countries. Trust me, when I say that you'll be running out of things to do around 1500-1600's and you'll have to make up your own goals to continue to the end point in the 1800's.

OT: Well it's Europa Universalis. That's sort of the point, since it's the period when Europe did dominate the world.
That being said with the newest update it's perfectly possible to play a non-European country and prosper and it makes for an interesting challenge. There are achievements as the Cherokee to throw out the Settlers from the U.S, or as India to conquer the U.K.

Ming (China) can easily dominate the world if played correctly. It's just a nice bit of challenge to sail against the currents of history.

EDIT: I don't really see anything worth outrage.

 

[raeior]

I was turned away by the time limit on the game. I understand why it is there, but it's gotta suck when you still want to do more and that end turn is beginning to creep up on you.

If you're not playing Ironman you can easily mod that out. There is a "defines" file which contains among other things the finishing date which you can edit to your hearts content.

 

[BoogieManFL]

I was turned away by the time limit on the game. I understand why it is there, but it's gotta suck when you still want to do more and that end turn is beginning to creep up on you.

If you're not playing Ironman you can easily mod that out. There is a "defines" file which contains among other things the finishing date which you can edit to your hearts content.

Interesting, thanks for letting me know.

 

[Shpongled]

I was turned away by the time limit on the game. I understand why it is there, but it's gotta suck when you still want to do more and that end turn is beginning to creep up on you.

If you're not playing Ironman you can easily mod that out. There is a "defines" file which contains among other things the finishing date which you can edit to your hearts content.

Interesting, thanks for letting me know.

It's pretty pointless for most people tbh. If you play even half-competently you'll be in a position of absolute world-domination by sometime in the late 1600's/early 1700's. Unless you're playing a late start-date game for giggles, the time-limit is a complete non-issue. The fact that the game gets uninteresting in the latter half of the time-frame is a far greater problem for the game than the fact that a time-limit exists in the first place.

Achievement runs aside, I know very few people who've finished a game more than once or twice, and even then they only finished a game for the sake of finishing a game, not because they were still really getting anything from that particular run-through. And all the people i know who have played EU at all have all put hundreds and hundreds of hours into the game. Most run-through's just kinda fizzle out once you get to the point where you're fighting global coalitions without breaking a sweat.

Honestly, a single run-through can last you anywhere between 30-100 hours depending on how much time you spend at speed 5. If the time-limit is all that's holding you back, go buy the game right now, because it's awesome.

 

[beastro]

I find these kinds of threads amusing. They're pretty much a complaint about a game being Eurocentric during the Golden Age of European civilization where they spread and controlled almost every corner of the globe. It's like people complaining about Rome Total War being Roman-centric when the timeline of the campaign is set near the beginning of their rising domination of the Mediterranean.

If you don't like Eurocentrism, look for a different game in Paradox's before Europe's rise.

 

[New Frontiersman]

I understand that the game is Europa not Africa or America. But I think that the game is too Eurocentric. I believe that 1400s Chinese technology was in some (if not most) ways superior to Western European. They definitely had better ships, yet they start at a lower tech leve. So why is Western Europe in the God tech group while others are left in the dust? The Ottomans and Muslim civilizations had long focused on science. Yet they are technologically inferior to "The Knights". What gives?If anyone isn't sure what I'm talking about http://www.eu4wiki.com/Technology
It feels like the designers just said WEST GOOD EAST DUMB. AMERICA SAVAGE AFRICA NOT KNOW TECHNOLOGY.

Am I looking too much in to this? Should Paradox revamp the tech groups? Why can't I kick Europe's ass with my great Chinese warships?

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks this. While European Nations did come to dominate much of the world during the time period the game is set the game gives them waaay too many advantages, especially in the early game. It gets to the point where it actually gets more historically inaccurate, rather than less.

You're completely right about how China and the Islamic world should be more technologically advanced than Eastern Europe in the early game. Hell, before they were conquered by Great Britain, it's suggested that India was on the verge of it's own industrial revolution.

Not only that, but the Americas are portrayed both inaccurately and, honestly, kind of offensively. Before European explorers arrived they were incredibly densely populated. Moreso that Europe in fact. It's estimated that the population of the Americas was between 20 and 100 million. Even outside of the Aztec and Inca hey had advanced sity-building cultures that are rarely talked about today.

The absurd, and in many cases historically inaccurate, Eurocentrism of Europa Universalis is one of the reasons I rarely play that game. So no, to reiterate, you're not alone in thinking this.

I think one thing the game does is to make technology unrealistically advantageous (at least prior to the 18th century, which is really when the differences between Europe and everywhere else started to show), but the actual distribution of tech groups is pretty okay. If we were going super realistic, it seems like maybe Ming in particular should start at tech 3 rather than tech 2, but since starting techs are generalized across tech groups it would be unprecedented.

What really needs an overhaul is the Westernization system, which is incredibly gamey and unrealistic and doesn't really reflect the flow of knowledge between nations.

I think you have it best. While in the mid-to-late game it's pretty accurate, it really needs some improvements in the early game.

 

[Boreale]

military technology of the time was roughly equal, differing largely in the approach to battle: European tactics relied on the shock impact of heavily armoured and heavily armed cavalry to break enemy formations on the field and allow their infantry to pour in through the breach. Conversely, Muslim tactics centered around lightly armoured but fast cavalry and horse archers using their superior maneuverability to exhaust the enemy while filling him full of arrows before going in for the kill up close.

A horrible simplification of a diverse range of tactics from a multi-ethnic group that spans north africa to india, buuuut sure. Sure. I won't get into the tradition of dismounted cavalry, cataphracts, and heavy armor that predated any European concept of the subject, but I will say you should read a certain primary source on the Mamlukes who took Acre.

My problem is the game doesn't reflect the active choices that led to the European scientific revolution. The West didn't get massive technological advancements "just because," but that's the narrative this game gives and it's annoying. Non-european nations are already nerfed by the unit choices they get late-game, anyways.

 

[taltamir]

The problem is that the game actually lets you play non european nations, they added them in expansions, but they often suck.
For example, you can play a native american nation, but even if you westernize it, it will still suffer from having weaker military because westernizing doesn't change your military unit type and the units are NOT balanced ON PURPOSE. (which is idiotic). It actually used to change the unit type, so it was a given that everyone would try to do it. But then it was patched to not do that anymore.