Ever suspected a child to have sociopathic tendensies?
- Thread starter Unia
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Were those children human? If yes then they have sociopathic tendencies, because all humans do.
The thing that keeps us from going full on psycho are morals, which we will pick up from other people around us(primarily parents), and by extent a child who has never learned why hurting animals is a bad thing will keep on hurting them or worse his parents condone it, possibly have been teaching by example.
The thing that keeps us from going full on psycho are morals, which we will pick up from other people around us(primarily parents), and by extent a child who has never learned why hurting animals is a bad thing will keep on hurting them or worse his parents condone it, possibly have been teaching by example.
I am a therapist who did my internship primarily with children in an area that was extremely underserved.
Seeing children with severe mental issues was a daily occurrence.
P.S. Sociopathic is the Hollywood term for antisocial personality.
P.P.S. Children cannot receive an antisocial personality diagnosis.
Seeing children with severe mental issues was a daily occurrence.
P.S. Sociopathic is the Hollywood term for antisocial personality.
P.P.S. Children cannot receive an antisocial personality diagnosis.
I have a student in my remedial English class who is just a violent little ball of hate: he used to punch walls and chairs, and when I moved him away from the wall and stopped him from punching his chair, he started punching his classmates (and once, me). Once, during recess, I saw him drop kicking the door of his classroom. No real reason, just run up to the door, drop kick, get up and repeat.
Well, looking back now, I'd say I did have some pointers when I was smaller.
That whole thing with the frogs and the fireworks was really fucked up. But I've grown out of that stuff, I think...
I was a weird kid.
That whole thing with the frogs and the fireworks was really fucked up. But I've grown out of that stuff, I think...
I was a weird kid.
Sociopath itself is not a formal diagnosis or a descriptor of those negative behaviors. When I see evidence of aggression to people and animals, destruction of property, deceitfulness or theft, and serious violations of the rules I would argue Conduct Disorder, that is essentially known as Antisocial Personality Disorder when the behavior is seen in adults.TheYellowCellPhone said:
Schizophrenia is completely different.
The hallmarks of someone with schizophrenia are hallucinations and/or delusions, but we also look for disorganized speech (word salad), grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior, and negative symptoms. People with Schizophrenia are generally no more violent than the general population.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/schizophrenia/index.shtml#pub4
Children's brains are incapable of empathy. They are a bunch of sociopaths, most if whom later develop empathy.
You could argue all people have sociopathic tendencies, but not a lot of those same people are full on sociopaths. Even then, a sociopathic tendency alone is pretty extreme in and of itself quite often. A person who is classified as a whole as a sociopath has an actual antisocial personality disorder. It goes beyond not yet developing empathy. A socioapth would never be able to develop empathy to begin with. At least a kid is in the process of learning, which puts them way ahead of a sociopath who can't be a part of that process ever. Plus, even while lacking certain aspects of empathy kids can still be social; something sociopaths have trouble being, at least sincerely. Kids are immature and grow out of it while still a kid. Sociopaths keep those traits regardless of physical growth though the traits do fully show themselves in adulthood to be fair. It just doesn't seem comparable to me. I don't pretend to be an expert in any of the fields related to studying this like psychology, psychiatry, or neurology, but I have always been fascinated by people socially and read up on this from time to time. Plus, my Mom is a doctor and I get some info from her now and again. If you think kids have serious sociopathic tendencies and grow out of it, I think that's more a sign of your dislike of kids (You do describe kids as assholes after all) than any actual understanding of what it takes to have those tendencies to any sort of extreme let alone be a full blown socioapath.Kolby Jack said:
Personally, I love most kids and think they get overly disrespected. Every generation romanticizes their childhood, purposefully blocking out all the bad things they did, and ignore the troubles the next generation's kids are facing as if they're a bunch of entitled brats when they often aren't. While I do agree kids are often giant assholes I don't think that has to be the case.
I try to be humble and often say to family and friends that I was arrogant and bratty as a kid and still am today to a certain extent. They often say I'm not and that I was one of the kindest people they knew and are proud to still know. I've had elementary and middle school teachers tell me this when I left those schools, the age I'd still show assholeish tendencies by your description. If we were to argue how much of an asshole you are is how people describe you as a person versus how you describe yourself (I really do think I am such a selfish person honestly), then well apparently I was some rare angel by your standards. Like I said, I try to be humble and think I had my own assholeish tendences. But, I still do and I'm obviously not a kid anymore. If those people are willing to excuse those because I was such a good person to them then when not being a jerk who's to say other kids can't be like that? And, yes, they weren't just saying that. I asked them to be sincere though I did have a few outliers describe me as any other bratty kid just for disclosure's sake. Heck, I've mentioned a few times how I tried to take advantage of something here and there and the same people who praise me have said, "OK. That one moment you had was kind of really mean to that one person".
I've had discussions with friends actually about how I used to keep a journal about being happy for other peoples' successes and worrying about the problems of the world and how I could help. As it turns out, surprisingly, some of my friends did the same thing when they were children. Do asshole children do that? Perhaps, that was just another form of selfishness on our part disguising itself as concern? I don't deny that possibility, but, I found this journal when I was about to head up to college and I was overwhelmed. I had completely forgotten about it and reminded me how much of a loner I was. I always helped teachers after class and tried to say kind things to people, but I didn't remember spending an hour or a 2 a day writing about other peoples' problems rather than going to parties or something. If you look hard enough into your own childhood I'm sure you'd find a similar shocking instance of sincere kindness. It all balances out really.
P.S. Upon rediscovering this journal, I ripped it up because it kind of depressed me and made me realize how silly it was for me to have written in that journal in the first place. It also disturbed me to see some of the thought process I was going through at the ages of 6-8 versus now; made me wonder if I've actually grown more selfish over the years, haha. Kids should not be thinking that sort of stuff. Not sure if any of my friends who wrote similar journals kept theirs though.
Anyway, I myself have certainly met kids that were quite empathetic despite still being toddlers. They might not fully grasp empathy, but they get it/feel it well enough to still display it satisfactorily all considered. I don't know. This all seems to stem from a massive disrespect for kids than any real basis, but that's just my opinion as I have no scientific evidence on any of this obviously. I haven't really seen anyone here describe what I'd consider a true sociopathic child, or heck what an expert might describe as a true sociopathic child, with the exception of Johnny Impact. As has been pointed out though, you can't actually diagnose a kid as a sociopath, but if we were to try to get as close as we could to diagnosing a child Johnny's example is the only one I see qualifying without more context to show me otherwise for the rest of you so far.
Your story doesn't line up with your theory. You stopped doing it when you realized cats also feel pain, which means you did have empathy as a kid. For it to line up properly, you'd have to continue doing it until you hit that age when you magically develop empathy. Seriously, that's what it sounds like a lot of you are saying: You just magically become more empathetic as you mature. I know some of you are more nuanced and are just saying since you're not born with empathy you have to develop it and some could develop it faster, but I'm not even sure that has merit. The way a lot of you are describing this I'm not sure how many of you understand the psychology behind any of this. Like I said before I quoted you, I'm no expert, but a lot of you seem to create weird circumstances to justify your belief kids have to develop empathy slowly as if they don't have some semblance of it to begin with. I don't believe you have fully developed empathy when you are younger, but you have some semblance of it and to argue it needs to develop from nothing to something seems disingenuous to me if not due to ignorance.Twintix said:
Honestly, you just didn't realize an animal could experience pain the way you could especially since many kids thinking doing something to a pet's tail can't possibly hurt because it's so soft and fluffy and there's less bone depth and stuff. That's more an issue of you not understanding that others can have similar experiences and/or not understanding foreign biology. Empathy is just being able to feel for another's suffering that is foreign to suffering you've experienced versus sympathy, which is feeling for another's suffering that you have similarly gone through or can directly relate to. Not understanding that someone is suffering in the first place doesn't mean you lack empathy. It means you didn't pick up on the signs of another's experience. Empathy doesn't automatically give you that ability to realize another's suffering; it just lets you feel for the sufferer when you pick up that they're suffering at all, which you did upon being alerted by the cat's owners.
Frankly, I don't know how many kids you have been around, but a lot of them LOVE to pull cat's tails. His response about not caring that it hurts the cat might seem unusual, but it's possible he absorbed some subconscious negative feelings about animals from adults around him. We often are willing to entertain ourselves at the expense of others. Think comedy that involves others getting minor injuries. Who's to say this won't translate to a kid who has fun messing with a cat's tail? There are certainly worse ways to hurt a cat. Nonetheless, most kids I know who would enjoy messing with a cat's tail would reconsider upon hearing it hurts the cat, so I can see your point. Just because he seemed too good to be true and had one instance of being a jerk doesn't mean anything though especially since fooling around with a cat's tail at age 7 doesn't really hint at future sociopathy in my book.Unia said:
As for the nightmare thing thing, there is the theory that she hates math class as Blood Brain Barrier said, haha. There's always the possibility of early schizophrenia or something like that I suppose. It could just be a phase too. Perhaps you should have titled this discussion differently if you wanted to shine light on things like that as well. That way other people not interested in the sociopath part of the discussion, but interested in the nightmare thing could let you know what they think is going on. Otherwise, they just won't click on the thread and you won't get as wide a range of opinions. Everyone who is here came here for the sociopath discussion and anyone who could answer the nightmare thing will be from that pool versus those better suited who stayed away due to lack of interest in sociopaths. Just some advice.
OT: Even with all the effort I went into to defend kids, I do admit I've met some kids I wouldn't be surprised to know have turned into sociopaths. I had one friend in elementary school who enjoyed leading me around to search for Spawn, the comic character, claiming that he was actually real and there were clues on the ground to his whereabouts and that we would become big players in the upcoming battle. Or something, I don't really remember the details. You might ask what that has to do with sociopathy. Well, it got tiring and started to feel like we were going beyond simple roleplaying; I got the feeling he knew I stopped liking it long and he just liked annoying me. It went overboard. It wasn't teasing or fun trolling; it was painfully annoying after a while. He also physically started hitting me with a toy of his at his house when I said something he didn't like, he acted very socially strange in other situations to put it mildly, and he just seemed like an all around manipulative, uncaring person. I got the feeling, even as a kid, that his family was doing the best they could with him. Other times I wondered if they were naive and thought he was an upstanding boy. His Dad was in the games industry though and he had this huge collection of Xbox games as a result. So, f*ck it. I'll put up with it if it means access to glorious collection of games 0_0. Not really, I'm not so addicted to games to put up with that sort of stuff. No, he and his family moved to New York.
I think the only reason we associate childhood with "innocence" is that children are too small, weak, and stupid to actually cause any real harm to anybody. If children had the physicality and access to dangerous materials of an adult they'd be a threat to society.
Also, my explaination for the girl? She stayed up all night playing this:
Also, my explaination for the girl? She stayed up all night playing this:
Absolutely. I developed empathy waaaaaay too early, I think - I remember getting REALLY upset when I was six when a couple friends of mine started cutting up a live carpenter ant, and even tried to tattle as to save the poor thing (turns out, adults don't care about carpenter ants). I hated seeing other people get hurt, and the kids around me didn't seem to care, so I assumed they were all bad.
This is probably why I begged Mom to home-school me from grade 3 and on and I didn't like playing with other kids. >__>
This is probably why I begged Mom to home-school me from grade 3 and on and I didn't like playing with other kids. >__>
Well, there's my younger brother. He tried to kill me several times over the most trivial reasons, such as me telling him to stop yelling at Left 4 Dead, and making a noise.
There's was also this kid that lived next door to the previous place I lived at, loved playing with throwing knives. Made everyone with kids and pets nervous. Luckily, he was terrible with them.
One time caught him out front stabbing the ground with one. While his father was there, not giving a shit probably because he was the one to give him the knives.
There's was also this kid that lived next door to the previous place I lived at, loved playing with throwing knives. Made everyone with kids and pets nervous. Luckily, he was terrible with them.
One time caught him out front stabbing the ground with one. While his father was there, not giving a shit probably because he was the one to give him the knives.
Kopikatsu said:
This.
People think children are these wonderful, innocent little cherubs (parents especially think this).
You want to know the best, most accurate representation of children (and their mentality) I've ever seen? South Park.
I don't remember a lot about School, but I do recall it being something akin to a cross between Mad Max and Battle Royale.
Meh, maybe I just went to a really shitty school.
0_0 I think you just went to a shitty school. My school experience was just fine, nothing like that at all. What the heck, man?Stu35 said:
Are there seriously only 2 of us in this thread who think kids are all right? Seriously, I've always found adults worse. Kids can be more self-obsessed sometimes as the other person who is less harsh on kids put it, but they aren't monsters all around. Their empathy isn't quite as developed, but they don't start out at 0 and have to go from there as some people here are suggesting. Maybe it's because I volunteered for a kids summer camp and have this huge bias because I always felt looked down upon and patronized as a kid and feel kids are still treated worse than they should be.
Relevant:
Parents were religious and placed a lot of emphasis on me going to hell if I was bad (we aren't even christian to begin with...) and that got ingrained into me as a kid so I don't recall doing much because I was afraid of going to hell. Pretty much agnostic now but glad I was raised religious. Fear reigned in my tendency to be an asshole on multiple occasions.
Everyone has sociopathic tendencies, which is simply putting yourself before other people. Children in particular are almost entirely selfish, which is in part a survival mechanism. Empathy and learning and understanding the value of society is something that comes with time and reinforcement, both positive and negative.Unia said:Cumbersome title, I know. I got pretty creeped out trying to explain to my relative's son why pulling a cat's tail isn't nice. He really seemed to have no sense of empathy whatsoever at age 7.
Then there's this little girl I know well that keeps having nightmares about geometrical shapes. She'll describe stretching rectangles and colliding spheres that bring her to tearsOkay so that's less indicative of sociopathy but it's...something, I guess.
Now I'm not going after some random encounters with brats at a supermarket, but do you know children who sometimes just make you uneasy? Alternatively feel free to tell me all kids are dumb or I'm reading way too far into things or whatever.
Emotional and social development is also one of the big reasons why there are age limits on sexual consent and things like that as the way a teenager is still wired (mostly developed but not there yet) and an adult is wired are different as is the understanding of the possible ramifications of relationships and so on.
At any rate, kids doing things like pulling the tails on cats, melting ants with magnifying glasses (a stereotype, and actually what inspired "Under The Dome" or the book version at least), fighting, and similar things are all fairly normal especially for boys. The trick is as an adult to temper them, and understand that eventually your also going to have to deal with guilt (as will they) as they grow up.
I'll also say that for the most part being a sociopath isn't all that scary, it's not like it is in the movies. Most sociopaths tend to become more pathetic in the end rather than scary especially as people learn how self involved and untrustworthy they are and they become pariahs. The movie version is pretty much what happens when you wind up with a sociopath who is ALSO a clinical sadist, and on top of that has managed to gain abilities to indulge that interest without immediate repercussions from society, such as being charismatic enough to act as a social chameleon, a genius level intellect, massive athletic ability, or a combination of such features. Such combinations of traits are exceedingly rare.
One thing to remember also is that children are NOT little adults, and realizing that is one of the reasons why adults can find them freaky. Especially when they have idealistic memories of their own childhood, or are used to the portrayal of "perfect children" on TV and in movies. The fact that adults can find children and their casual cruelty and such so disturbing is one of the reason why the theme of evil children recurs throughout the horror media.
This is also the logic behind the juvenile court system and the like, even if children become conditioned through punishment to "behave" or whatever, inherently they are still going to be very self-interested. As all children are like this crimes are expected, and if you start throwing them in jail your going to wind up with prisons full of kids. Using conditioning, and scaring the hell out of them (like say intimidation by the manager of a store after theft) is actually going to work better than say putting them into a prison environment which will probably wind up reinforcing the behaviors due to depriving them of a normal social environment and development.
Of course understand though I'm not a child psychologist, my understanding of this comes from having to take classes on Abnormal Psyche and Criminal Psyche while chasing a Forensics degree (which I failed to do for financial reasons, though I received some interesting training elsewhere). The slant with which this was taught all took largely a criminal justice bent and lead into understandings of the juvenile justice system, the need for it, and of course why you generally don't go around slamming kids into prisons and youth detention centers left and right.
It also raises questions about the logic of trying any children as adults, which has become increasingly common since I was in school. To be honest the idea that when kids commit adult sized crimes they should be handled as adults leaves me with mixed opinions since at the end of the day they are not adults, and some simply have greater capabilities than others. Opportunity also enters into it. Say for example a kid who steals a chocolate bar, one who steals a video game, and one who steals a $1000 watch, aren't all that different all are simply taking things they want and can't otherwise obtain. The scale of the crime is different in a legal sense, but I don't think the underlying behavior is. In perhaps a more frightening or controversial case, look at the situation where you had a couple of girls try and kill another one to appease slederman or something like that. That seems to go to a whole different level, but I'm not sure if most children really understand the ramifications of death, and in some cases it could be seen as simply the kind of bullying, hazing, and cruelty you'd expect, just going to a higher level. I'm not sure if the mentality and full understanding of right and wrong was present there. Plus I've also been wondering who exactly gave them this idea since I sure as heck have never seen any kind of Slender Man myth like that. Still there have been some pretty bad injuries and stuff in the past. Should the behavior be corrected? Certainly, should they be thrown in jail forever for attempted murder? Probably not. Kids can be fairly easy to convince of crazy things and made to do crazy things and they claimed they talked to "Slender Man running a website" or something like that, so whoever the hell that was needs to be held responsible. At any rate its a cautionary tale for the need for parents who you know, try and keep an eye on their kids, and who the heck they are actually dealing with online.
The overall point of this before rambling is that I wouldn't start thinking some kid is Damien just because he or she is cruel. The disturbing cruelty of children has been noted for a long time, they will generally get out of it. Later if the kid is a teenager, you should still expect some really self interested behavior, BUT at that point you should be noticing empathy. See if a 10 year old does something like stick a firecracker up a cat's butt to make it explode that's messed up and sickening, but it's a lot different than if say a 14 or 15 year old does it. The degree of concealment is a factor as well, because if say some kid is old enough to hide the fact that he's stealing and torturing animals, he knows what he's doing is wrong, and understand the ramifications to the extent that he's taking great pains to hide it. That's when you should start becoming disturbed. Of course at the same time you should consult experts well beyond someone like me, because such things can be part of things like death obsessions coming from depression and/or social disenfranchisement, not due to someone turning into the real life version of Michael Meyers.
I worked with young kids before toddlers and around 8.
If they're toddlers it's something they can grow out of so it should be too worried (a lot of bitters out there though) now as kids if they violent for no real reason (no trouble at home etc.) then yeah, that kids got problems. But I know kids that intentionally hurt other kids or cause trouble just to see the misery or how far they can go and try to be slick enough to get away with it, that shows a disturbing level of calculation.
It's not mental illness but it is a sign of a lack of empathy, that's hard to teach.
If they're toddlers it's something they can grow out of so it should be too worried (a lot of bitters out there though) now as kids if they violent for no real reason (no trouble at home etc.) then yeah, that kids got problems. But I know kids that intentionally hurt other kids or cause trouble just to see the misery or how far they can go and try to be slick enough to get away with it, that shows a disturbing level of calculation.
It's not mental illness but it is a sign of a lack of empathy, that's hard to teach.