Evolution is real. Its a real thing that really does happen and did happen. Gah!

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Asita

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EcoEclipse said:
TheMightyAtrox said:
People just keep going on about this. It's evolution! No, it's God's plan!

How about this...

What if evolution IS God's plan? -Law and Order Sound-

Maybe I should have my flame shield handy now.
Isn't that the intelligent design theory in a nutshell?
Common misconception, but no. Intelligent Design is quite literally a repackaging of Creationism wherein the creationists simply removed overt mention of "god" and replaced it with "an intelligent designer" to make it sound more scientific without changing the base idea. This was most damningly shown with their repackaging of "Of Pandas and People", which suffered from a rather hasty copy-paste which in addition to its nigh-identical nature to the 'creationist version' also included several instances of 'cdesign proponentsists", as was famously shown in the case of Edwards v. Aguillard.

What you're referring to here is what is known as "theistic evolution", the belief that a higher power may have implemented and/or guided evolutionary processes.
 

gideonkain

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chimeracreator said:
Imat said:
We can watch evolution happen? Isn't that kinda the point of evolution, that it takes millions of years for the tiniest of changes to take effect through successive generations? Therefore we most certainly can NOT watch it happen? Which means you shouldn't believe in evolution, because it isn't directly observable...
Actually we have observed sufficient changes over generations to support the theory of macro-evolution. Multidrug resistant strains of bacteria are the best example of this because it works as follows:

1. A drug is made that affects all or nearly all bacteria in a species by inhibiting some vital chemical pathway resulting in its death over time.
2. This is applied across millions of people and trillions of bacteria. The differences in these colonies and environments mean that some strains die faster than others. Those that take longer to die have a better chance to reproduce or survive if the patient stops taking the medication.
2a. As all of these drugs are based on very specific chemical pathways working in a specific way random mutations that would otherwise be selected against will at times emerge that improve resistance to the drug.
3. These resistant mutations propagate over generations and more of these traits develop and are shared as some species of bacteria are capable of "eating" each other to absorb DNA thus allowing beneficial traits to be passed in a manner outside of simple cell division.
4. The drug resistant strain merges with other resistant strains through the above process or is selected for via the above mechanisms thus causing two possible paths of development.

So there you have it, a trait that did not exist before appears within a species via mutation and is selected for because of external forces. All of which has happened many times within the past fifty years, and trust me, the medical community would be ecstatic if this didn't occur. Unfortunately because there are strains of TB out there that are resistant to every single drug on the market the evidence says otherwise.


The second major element of macro-evolution is speciation, where one species has a fork in its evolutionary tree and becomes two distinct species that cannot interbreed via normal means. If you need evidence of this look at dogs. All of these are the result of thousands of years of selective breeding and last I checked great danes and toy poodles can't breed without external help.

That said speciation is a very tricky thing because there are some species that we thought were separate that can interbreed. For example polar bears and grizzly bears can reproduce and produce viable offspring. This tells us that at some point long ago there was likely a genetic fork, but that they haven't been separated long enough for reproduction to become impossible.

Imat said:
For the record, I don't believe in the idea that humans came from monkeys. Evolution can exist in the same reality as creationism, but not the evolution most commonly taught nowadays. Natural selection is a verifiable thing. Humans coming from monkeys is conjecture. Scientists also told me Pluto isn't a planet, and that is simply false.
Scientists do not believe that humans came from monkeys. The belief is that humans can from a shared ancestor to modern apes and ourselves. Also scientists told you that Pluto was an object that didn't have sufficient mass to obtain hydrostatic equilibrium and thus did not meet with the new definition of a planet, which was introduced after many objects larger than Pluto were found that were nonetheless not treated as planets.
I think this bares repeating. This was an excellent, inciteful post.
 

Jacco

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JaceArveduin said:
Jacco said:
Share your stories about interactions with people who say its not real.
The real question is: Micro or Macro evolution? I've had a science teacher that believed in micro, but not macro *shrug*
I doubt most deniers are intelligent or versed enough to realize there is a difference between the two.
 

Rainforce

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Solo-Wing said:
Too bad we did not get to keep our tails...
Too bad we didn't get much further than tails... : D

OT: this topic is pure idiot bai-- wait I'm posting in these topics again WHAAAAARGH
 

Jacco

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Imat said:
We can watch evolution happen? Isn't that kinda the point of evolution, that it takes millions of years for the tiniest of changes to take effect through successive generations? Therefore we most certainly can NOT watch it happen? Which means you shouldn't believe in evolution, because it isn't directly observable...

I say let people believe what they want. Next you'll start a thread about how religion is so stupid, because *Insert partially correct but overall flawed logical statement here*.

For the record, I don't believe in the idea that humans came from monkeys. Evolution can exist in the same reality as creationism, but not the evolution most commonly taught nowadays. Natural selection is a verifiable thing. Humans coming from monkeys is conjecture. Scientists also told me Pluto isn't a planet, and that is simply false.
There are two kinds of evolution: micro and macro. Micro evolution happens on a generational level, macro on a much larger scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

That is an example of micro.

And I'm not against God or religion. I'm against stupidity.
 

BeeGeenie

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TAdamson said:
Doclector said:
Y'know, that does bring up an interesting point. What if the monkeys one day start catching up? A group of "the missing link" shows up in a jungle somewhere. The societal changes once they gain communication and mental skills could be massive.

'Course, I never claimed to be a scientist, so I suppose there could be some reason they will never evolve further.
Yeah you're right.

If evolution exists, why don't gorillas just evolve into humans? Also why don't fish turn into fish people?

Your move evolutionists.
Because evolution doesn't work that way.
I could just stop there, but I'll try to spell it out for you. Mutation creates RANDOM changes. Survival of the fittest determines which of those changes get passed on. Evolution is the accumulation of MILLIONS of RANDOM changes. It's not like just flipping a switch that says "be more like humans."

Your move, person who doesn't understand what evolution is.
 

The Towel Boy

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Terminate421 said:
Pokemon don't exist, since they don't exist they cannot evolve, because they cannot evolve, we cannot evolve.

/thread

Also, it technically it's still a theory. It isn't right but like all beliefs it isn't wrong.
I'm with this guy.
 

chimeracreator

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lacktheknack said:
I, personally, say that yes, evolution happens, but it's not adequate to explain how we came to be. Lots of niggling little questions I have, be they "Where'd the first incidence of life come from, and how did it come up with a method of reproduction over one lifespan?", "Where are the millions of missing links?", "How did the universal constants end up so finely tuned?" and "How, exactly, does a species evolve a wing without becoming excessively clumsy, and thus die?" have gone either unanswered or answered by an unrefined hypothesis.
I'll do my best here to clear up some of these questions.

1. Evolution as a theory does not deal with the origin of life, it only discusses how it changes and increases or decreases in complexity over time in response to external and internal factors. The current scientific theory is that proteins showed up in a nitrogen rich environment that were able to use surrounding materials to build new copies of themselves and convert other proteins into them. The expanding into the building blocks of RNA and later DNA.

That said, this is wholely separate from the theory of evolution and lab tests have only shown that this theory of bio-genesis is supported by the spontaneous generation of base pair and protein sequences under the right conditions in the presence of random electrical discharges and the fact that prions exist (these cause mad cow disease) which are self replicating proteins that require neither DNA nor RNA to create new copies of themselves.

2. The fossil record can't have everything in it. Most of the remaining missing links were eaten by other lifeforms or broke down naturally over time and were then used as building materials for new life which in turn became even more missing links. Unfortunately nature tends to recycle so we're lucky to get as much as we do.

3. This is a bit of ex post facto logic. Basically if the conditions were any different we wouldn't be here to question them so the fact that they exist doesn't prove anything about why they exist. These could be wholly random in which case we got lucky and can talk about why they came about. They could also be a result of his noodly appendage guiding us for the grand purpose of creating pasta to honor him. Unfortunately we have no proof either way.

4. For the wing question we just need to look at species that developed into an intermediary state such as the flying squirrel and gliding lizard.




Basically at first wings most likely did not show up to help creatures fly. Instead they were there to help them fall from greater heights safely, jump further or glide to safety. Also as life is believed to have its origin in the sea and there seems to be some back and forth there the production of webbed material or wings could have originally been used to help creatures move in or on the water more quickly. That said this is still a very interesting question in the field of evolutionary science. :)
 

Gorrila_thinktank

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Bradley Gower said:
Doclector said:
subtlefuge said:
Elate said:
Don't be completely short sighted, evolution is only a theory.

If it were real, and we evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys around? You can't explain that.
Finally. You would think that nobody thought this whole evolution thing out at all.

Y'know, that does bring up an interesting point. What if the monkeys one day start catching up? A group of "the missing link" shows up in a jungle somewhere. The societal changes once they gain communication and mental skills could be massive.

'Course, I never claimed to be a scientist, so I suppose there could be some reason they will never evolve further.
Actually, monkeys are evolving... just like everything else. Every time any life-form reproduces there will be mutations that might eventually lead to a new species. Also, humans are not "more" evolved than apes... they're just differently evolved. They haven't changed the way that humans did, but they have changed, and could theoretically become more like humans... or go off in a completely different direction! There is more genetic variation in one small tribe of chimpanzees than in the entire human race!
And Timmy, the littlest cancer patient, felt a cold tear trace its way down his cheek. He knew now that it was not some sociopathic desert god punishing him for his preventions but simply Life attempting to continue that had lead him to this hospital bed. He could see it in his mind now, that blind and mewling Thing. It had crawled inside him as he had exited his mother all those years ago, slipping out like the afterbirth from some ever-necrotic whore. The Thing had clamored to be feed when he was a child, clamored to be loved when he had grown to know what that meant and now clamored for a justification as to why it should have to die with him.

?I?m not really afraid anymore,? he said to the lone beep of the heart monitor, ?because I am the cancer. It?s just Evolution. I'm a dead end.?

He pondered this as he watched the light from the cars outside slowly change shape on the room walls, distorted as they were by the blinds the nurse had pulled hours before. The simple truth of the matter was he had been fighting both himself and something greater every time he had gone for chemo. He realised that he was not some grand project but all the other pieces that came with when you rolled gum along the ground. Dust.
 

Haefulz

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chimeracreator said:
3. This is a bit of ex post facto logic. Basically if the conditions were any different we wouldn't be here to question them so the fact that they exist doesn't prove anything about why they exist. These could be wholly random in which case we got lucky and can talk about why they came about. They could also be a result of his noodly appendage guiding us for the grand purpose of creating pasta to honor him. Unfortunately we have no proof either way.
Well said. Basically what this means is that we're here because of the way the universe works. The universe doesn't work that way because we are here.

Back on the topic of evolution: Another common criticism of natural selection is the development of more complex body parts such as an eye. Some say species couldn't have developed eyes through evolution because without the entirety of the eye (iris, pupil, retina, etc.), the eye as a whole would be useless, so species that developed mutations with only one part of the eye wouldn't survive, thus wouldn't reproduce. In my opinion, this is one of the best counters to natural selection, though I've seen some answers for it that haven't quite satisfied me.
 

lacktheknack

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chimeracreator said:
Thanks for the attempt. It's nothing I haven't heard before, and I still think there's holes in them, but I absolutely refuse to get into an exchange about it in a public forum.

I love you, Escapist... when you aren't talking about religion, conservatives, or evolution. -_-

(If you're really interested in my further comebacks, then do a PM convo.)
 

SmegInThePants

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evolution is often called a theory, but this is merely in relation to the idea of evolution as the origin of man, and its merely a 'theory' because of missing links in the otherwise very elaborate and almost complete fossil record. Gravity is also just a theory.

evolution as a process is not merely a theory, however. You can see it for yourself very quickly w/certain short-lived plants/animals, deliberately selecting for traits you desire and seeing changes over generations (i.e. only breeding the tallest ones w/each other again and again and again until the norm becomes a much taller variation).

And some people say, fine, but that's controlled, and it doesn't happen in nature - but of course it does. In nature, those w/traits that cause them to die before they reproduce, cannot pass on traits because they are dead, meaning only those that that survive long enough to produce do pass on their traits - because you have to be alive in order to reproduce - its a tautology, it cannot help but be true. Instead of a person consciously selecting for traits, the environment itself does by being fatal those w/traits that can't handle it.

How someone can disagree that there's such a thing as evolution is beyond me. Even if they disagree it's where man game from (they think god created man, or aliens seeded the planet, or what have you), that still wouldn't mean there's no such thing as evolution.
 

Gorrila_thinktank

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Haefulz said:
chimeracreator said:
3. This is a bit of ex post facto logic. Basically if the conditions were any different we wouldn't be here to question them so the fact that they exist doesn't prove anything about why they exist. These could be wholly random in which case we got lucky and can talk about why they came about. They could also be a result of his noodly appendage guiding us for the grand purpose of creating pasta to honor him. Unfortunately we have no proof either way.
Well said. Basically what this means is that we're here because of the way the universe works. The universe doesn't work that way because we are here.

Back on the topic of evolution: Another common criticism of natural selection is the development of more complex body parts such as an eye. Some say species couldn't have developed eyes through evolution because without the entirety of the eye (iris, pupil, retina, etc.), the eye as a whole would be useless, so species that developed mutations with only one part of the eye wouldn't survive, thus wouldn't reproduce. In my opinion, this is one of the best counters to natural selection, though I've seen some answers for it that haven't quite satisfied me.
I guess this is the problem that hounds the whole theory, how can something so complex just have appeared? The eye is just a good summation of the whole argument. When you get down to it, it?s more a question of how something came into being that can not only self replicate, but also fed itself. Then you move up one step and ask how they can organize themselves and specialize. All bets are out the window. Then you add the fact that it only takes one cell going rouge to give someone cancer. So the real miracle is not that things are changing and growing, but that their doing it in concert.
 

Bat Vader

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Instant K4rma said:
Elate said:
Don't be completely short sighted, evolution is only a theory.

If it were real, and we evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys around? You can't explain that.

Next you'll be claiming that the world is round like that dude in the other thread. What's wrong with you people, has the world gone mad.


I'm so sorry, first thing that came to mind. Had to do it.

OT: While I do think that evolution is real, you've definitely taken a more... Confrontational approach to the discussion than I would have.

The way I see it, folks can believe what they want. I couldn't care less if you believe in evolution, intelligent design, Scientology, or the Nine Divines. Whatever floats your boat.
That is the way that I see it too. As long as the person isn't hurting anyone else they can believe in whatever they want to believe in. Plus, it isn't my job to tell people what to believe or not believe in.
 

TAdamson

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Bradley Gower said:
TAdamson said:
Doclector said:
Y'know, that does bring up an interesting point. What if the monkeys one day start catching up? A group of "the missing link" shows up in a jungle somewhere. The societal changes once they gain communication and mental skills could be massive.

'Course, I never claimed to be a scientist, so I suppose there could be some reason they will never evolve further.
Yeah you're right.

If evolution exists, why don't gorillas just evolve into humans? Also why don't fish turn into fish people?

Your move evolutionists.
Because evolution doesn't work that way.

I could just stop there, but I'll try to spell it out for you. Mutation creates RANDOM changes. Survival of the fittest determines which of those changes get passed on. Evolution is the accumulation of MILLIONS of RANDOM changes. It's not like just flipping a switch that says "be more like humans."

Your move, person who doesn't understand what evolution is.
If mutation creates random changes then how are we created in God's image?

Your move, person that can't recognize satire.
 

General Twinkletoes

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Bat Vader said:
The way I see it, folks can believe what they want. I couldn't care less if you believe in evolution, intelligent design, Scientology, or the Nine Divines. Whatever floats your boat. That is the way that I see it, As long as the person isn't hurting anyone else they can believe in whatever they want to believe in. Plus, it isn't my job to tell people what to believe or not believe in.

So if I believed that all black people, jews and homosexuals should die but I never act on it, that's cool?
Alright then.
 

Lunar Templar

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*shrugs*
only thing i find offensive about the theory of evolution is we came from monkeys, cause, i hate monkeys.

other wise, seems legit to me. way more legit then anything the 'intelligent design' crowd got going, cause it ether sounds stupid, or it makes the cooler mythology sound boring
 

evilneko

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Syzygy23 said:
evilneko said:
Why are there still monkeys?

Because my friend, we are monkeys.

Also,



This thread will reach 20+ pages.
Ah HA! I gotcha now! Humans aren't monkeys, we're APES! You were wrong, therefore, evolution is wrong! Creationists win!
Sure about that? [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A-dMqEbSk8] ;)