Evolution is real. Its a real thing that really does happen and did happen. Gah!

[Lonewolfm16]

[/quote]
Talos guide you![/quote]

Talos worship is strictly prohibbited within this forum as per the White-Gold concordant. Destroy all shrines to Talos immediatly or I will be forced to report you to the Thalmor.

 

[Bat Vader]

The way I see it, folks can believe what they want. I couldn't care less if you believe in evolution, intelligent design, Scientology, or the Nine Divines. Whatever floats your boat. That is the way that I see it, As long as the person isn't hurting anyone else they can believe in whatever they want to believe in. Plus, it isn't my job to tell people what to believe or not believe in.

So if I believed that all black people, jews and homosexuals should die but I never act on it, that's cool?
Alright then.

The first three sentences of that post are not mine. They belong to a different post that I was quoting.

Ah I thought it might have been off. I accidentely deleted quite a bit of the quote and thought that whole bit was only yours.
But am I right?

No, I don't agree with a belief like that. I can't force the person to change their beliefs and trying would most likely just start a heated argument/fight that I didn't intend to get into. I try to avoid a confrontation whenever possible.

 

[evilneko]

Y'know, that does bring up an interesting point. What if the monkeys one day start catching up? A group of "the missing link" shows up in a jungle somewhere. The societal changes once they gain communication and mental skills could be massive.

'Course, I never claimed to be a scientist, so I suppose there could be some reason they will never evolve further.

Yeah you're right.

If evolution exists, why don't gorillas just evolve into humans? Also why don't fish turn into fish people?

Your move evolutionists.

I beleive you forgot your /sarcasm tags.

Or were you serious?

Oh I wasn't clear enough?

Why aren't there insect people? Huh? Huh? Or Mollusc people apart from Cthulhu? What about fungus people? If evolution is real why don't they exist?

And what about algae? Why don't they just turn into proper plants?

And slime moulds... Why are they so weird? Why don't they evolve into something more sensible?

Evolution is just a theory. You shouldn't believe everything you read... Except the bible.

Poe's Law, and all that jazz.

 

[chadachada123]

Can someone link me proof that evolution really happened the way the OP seems to think we all should know??

Maybe this can help you out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent

and this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html

and also this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

and especially this:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

This is all stuff that *should* be taught in school. It's just sad (pathetic, really) that millions of people will learn of this and still just deny it like they would deny the existence of bacteria or viruses or gravity, all of which have similar evidence to their credit.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Don't be completely short sighted, evolution is only a theory.

If it were real, and we evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys around? You can't explain that.

Finally. You would think that nobody thought this whole evolution thing out at all.

Y'know, that does bring up an interesting point. What if the monkeys one day start catching up? A group of "the missing link" shows up in a jungle somewhere. The societal changes once they gain communication and mental skills could be massive.

'Course, I never claimed to be a scientist, so I suppose there could be some reason they will never evolve further.

Chimpanzees have been observed making and hunting with spears and even teaching this to their offspring. lets face it we arent so far apart.

 

[Haefulz]

Good job explaining the intermediate stages. I do have a question about the first development of a simple light-detecting eyespot though. Can just one single mutation somewhere in the species cause something even so basic as an eyespot to appear? I would think it would take a perfect combination of multiple mutations (and if that's the case, I'm sure it would still eventually happen given time)

The thing is, there are various different definitions to 'detect'. For example, you could argue that our skin detects UV light by producing vitamin D, or IR light through heat sensitivity. If you've got a cell which photosynthesises through exposure to sunlight, you've got something that can, arguably, detect it. Not well, but it doesn't have to.

Edit: I'll stick in something from Wikipedia to suggest the chemical nature of the detecting: "..photoreceptor proteins in the cell absorb photons, triggering a change in the cell's membrane potential." This means that the photons themselves cause a change in the chemistry of the cell. Our human eyes have different cells that respond to different wavelengths of light. The mechanism for that doesn't have to be as complicated as occurs in our eyes. All it requires is that a protein in a cell changes when it is hit by photons/not hit by photons/hit by photons of a particular wavelength.

Very, very good point, I would never have thought of the skin as a much simpler way of detecting light.

 

[Roggen Bread]

But would you agree that your personal incredulity has no bearing on the merits of evolution? That is the problem a lot of people have. They cannot fathom how something so complex could have evolved, but that's a human failing--we often have trouble conceptualizing anything on a massive scale. Many also make the mistake of equating primordial cells with modern ones, but they were much simpler back then.

Oh, of course evolution happend and happens. We wouldn't exist otherwise, like a lot of nowadays species.

I merely say, that the building blocks of life may have been engineered and not conincidence'd.

Look at some cells, that are, in fact, primordial. Even these are quite complex, compared to, let's say, an internal combustion engine.

 

[chimeracreator]

Good job explaining the intermediate stages. I do have a question about the first development of a simple light-detecting eyespot though. Can just one single mutation somewhere in the species cause something even so basic as an eyespot to appear? I would think it would take a perfect combination of multiple mutations (and if that's the case, I'm sure it would still eventually happen given time)

Unfortunately I'm not a biophysicist but I will do what I can do to explain this. I apologize in advance for being overly broad.

So as far as I am aware the light sensing chemical in rods (which only detect light / dark) is Opsin a fairly complex protein that is believed to have evolved independently in Bacteria of Eukaryote. In some of its partially constructed or mangled forms it still has the ability to respond to light by creating a charge.

So odds are the precursor to opsin was some sort of protein that was part of the cell membrane that started twitching (light would be absorbed cause an electron to enter a higher orbital thus changing the structure of the protein until it fell again) or releasing an electrical charge when struck by light. This change helped the cell by causing it to shift its cytoskeleton or more flagella in a manner that was useful after which point sensitivity continued to increase.

For a LOT more information about the chemical pathways involved in this and the differences in Opsin between a humans and lots of other species I advise checking out this site: http://genomewiki.ucsc.edu/index.php/Opsin_evolution

 

[Labyrinth]

*Snip*

I don't think that's necessary. It's a legitimate question about the potential of species to evolve which may see them surpass us, rather than a statement that OMG THE BIBLE SAYS.

There's very little, genetically, that differentiates us from the rest of the primates. I think that about 1% of our DNA separates us from chimpanzees. I would be fascinated to see what both species, ours and chimps, have become in say half a million years. Of course there's no guarantee that they'll still be around, and we do have a habit of converting continents to suit our biological/social needs rather than that of other species which is a (potentially self-destructive) advantage.

Already we have other primates learning sign language systems. I think it would be amazing to have an actual, for real conversation with a non-human consciousness. I also suspect it would be a defensible argument that language has fundamentally changed our brain development, although it may not have changed the DNA code directly.

A note on that: Do remember that DNA is a code for producing proteins. The environment, internal and external to the cell in which that production occurs changes which proteins are produced at any given time. As such the development of our brains relies not only on DNA, but on what we eat, whether we socialise with others, our environment, etc.

 

[butternut]

Don't be completely short sighted, evolution is only a theory.

If it were real, and we evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys around? You can't explain that.

Next you'll be claiming that the world is round like that dude in the other thread. What's wrong with you people, has the world gone mad.

I'd just like to let you know I made a twenty minute response with basics of evolution to you, simply because I didn't bother to read your last two sentances, proving your stance was sarcastic... What is wrong with me?

I was just about to press the quote button and do the same thing when I noticed the second line.
...
Okay, who am I kidding?
I was going to rant at him and call him a retard. It's too late at night for me to try to reason with an evolution denialist.

Dont they still call this the "theory" of evolution? Meaning its not 100% fact?

No. First of all, technically speaking, nothing can be known with 100% certainty. There's no such thing as "100% fact". We might just all be brains in jars for all we know.
Second: 'Theory' is the highest standing an explanation of how stuff works can have in science.
The idea that bacteria make us sick is still a theory.
Something can't move from theory to fact, since those are two different categories.
Third: Evolution isn't a theory. It's an observation. There may be different theories trying to explain this observation, but the most well known one is The theory of Natural selection.
i.e. A theory is an attempt at explaining the mechanisms behind observations. A theory must be able to predict future events with some accuracy.

The theory of natural selection isn't some 100% foolproof 'this is how things work' statement. It's being tweaked and upgraded as our understanding of the world improves.
This means certain aspects of natural selection may be debated.

However, the fact that species turn into different species over time is not up for debate.

Saying "evolution doesn't happen" is like saying "the sky isn't blue".
Saying "natural selection doesn't happen" is like saying "the sky isn't blue because of particles in the air spreading different wavelengths of light at different angles, it's blue for some other reason."

After reading your post, Jonluw, I closed my eyes and whispered "Thank you" three times. This post is just such a relief to read. It says what I want to say but most likely better. Again, Many thanks.

 

[Samus Aran but a man]

http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/top-10-evolution-myths.pdf

^ I love this little article

 

[Eldritch Warlord]

Evolution did happen. Evolution does happen.
But somehow, I can't shake the feeling, that a higher power has had it's influence.
I am from Germany, we teach evolution in school, in religious education,we are NOT told, that god created the world.
Some teachers share there personal believes (he did, bladibla).
All in all, there should be almost no pure creationists here (speaking for the christian population.
I have got no Idea, how the muslimic or buddhist folks see this), but this is no country populated mostly by morons, like the US.

My personal view:
I am studying biomedical engineering, so I am quite familiar with all kinds of sciences.
And the more I learn, the more I understand how fucking complex the (human) body is built, how even more complex some other species are built, the more I believe in a kind of intelligent design.
The simplest organisms, work with such complexity, there is no way, we ("evolution's peak", lol) could come up with something like this on our own.
We still haven't reverse-engineered quite a darn lot of things.
So In a way, I do believe that certain processes, certain logics, certain ways how things just flow (pun intended), are in fact designed by the greatest engineer of all times.
And I seriously pull my fucking hat in front of this guy.

I do know, that everything basically works with the same 4 or 5 dynamics (osmotic pressure, gradient of concentration, gravity, pressure and so on), but they are so well implented and flawlessly used.

I firmly believe that anyone who believes any organisms are intelligently designed has not studied them closely enough. Take our chordate eyes for instance, the blood vessels supplying the eye pass through the middle and fan out over the photoreceptors when they could just run behind them. Consider our tiny human spine which when combined with our bipedal posture inevitably causing chronic pain after a few decades. Question why land-dwelling arthropods don't have a decent set of air pumps like us terrestrial vertebrates therefore limiting them to very small body size.

Sure, when you put it all together our bodies work pretty well. The design is almost completely jury-rigged though.

 

[evilneko]

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I think you ah, messed up your quote there. Also you quoted me and responded to Roggen Bread.

 

[Eldritch Warlord]

-

I think you ah, messed up your quote there. Also you quoted me and responded to Roggen Bread.

Yeah, sorry about that. Fixed now though.

 

[TAdamson]

I would be fascinated to see what both species, ours and chimps, have become in say half a million years. Of course there's no guarantee that they'll still be around, and we do have a habit of converting continents to suit our biological/social needs rather than that of other species which is a (potentially self-destructive) advantage.

Already we have other primates learning sign language systems. I think it would be amazing to have an actual, for real conversation with a non-human consciousness. I also suspect it would be a defensible argument that language has fundamentally changed our brain development, although it may not have changed the DNA code directly.

A note on that: Do remember that DNA is a code for producing proteins. The environment, internal and external to the cell in which that production occurs changes which proteins are produced at any given time. As such the development of our brains relies not only on DNA, but on what we eat, whether we socialise with others, our environment, etc.

I also think it is interesting to think about what humans might become in 500,000 to a 1,000,000 years. That we'll change somehow is without doubt but the normal mechanism of environmental selection no longer applies.

The main driver of human evolution for much of the last 5000 years has been disease selection. By conquring (for now) so many diseases that previously limited our species' reproduction potential its an interesting question as to what the real next evolutionary pressure is.


A more approachable question is divergence. The main driver of divergence is geographic separation. Barring apocalyptic reduction in human population and travel, the only divergence that is forseeable is the colonisation of other planet.

If we colonise Mars in the net 1000 years, what will Martians look like compared to those who stay at home after another 1,000,000?

 

[Frission]

Dont they still call this the "theory" of evolution? Meaning its not 100% fact?

Yeah, the people who call it just a consipracy are ignorant, but just calling them idiots is just as ignorant. Actually study and look into this stuff before you make a decide whats up.

You don't know the meaning of theory in science do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory