Existential Depression - The Philosopher's Bane
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Ah well someone already told me, but still I like the fact that, your answer was more informative so thank you very much, also your avatar is awesome.Agayek said:
Well damn me. There's a name for this thing?ravens_nest said:
Yeah, as for a resolution to this I got nothing at the moment. It doesn't help with my Uni work when I consider the futility of existance. In the end its all worthless and nothing is achieved in the long term, so who cares if I read page x of set text book...
If you come up with a solution, please do share.
Repeat this to yourself like a mantra, "You were sick, but now you're well again, and there's work to do."DarkLordofDevon said:
Read Timequake by Kurt Vonnegut for more information.
Words only have the values we assign them. Besides I'm not sick. I am very healthy considering my lfestyle. The problem doesn't lie with me, it lies with the nature of existance. No, this does not provide a logical or suitable resolution to the problem of existance.More Fun To Compute said:
And I will look into this book as it does seem an interesting read.
I learned a phrase during my life that lets me deal with existential depression.
"I am perfect. That means I have reached my limit." - Marafuji Ryo, from the anime Yugioh GX.
Now this stems from the philosophical belief that all things are subjective to each person and there is no true objectivity in the world (I put some stock in this idea, though if someone has a good argument to the contrary I'd be delighted to listen).
Perfection to me is a bad thing, because I cannot be objectively perfect, I can only be the perfect me, and the perfect me is the me that can go no further, I would have reached my limits. This applies to all aspects of things, including identity. If I knew all the answers, I'd be perfect, and therefore worthless. I like me some mystery.
I philosophise constantly. I have a degree in Philosophy, I consider myself a philosopher. I constantly think about these and other existential issues, but I am so glad that I can keep finding questions, because it means I'm not perfect yet, and I can keep going forward. I think if I ever reached perfection, even in a single aspect of my life, I'd have to kill myself.
So yeah, as long as I'm not perfect, existential uncertainty for me will probably never turn into existential depression, the moment it does I'll end my life.
"I am perfect. That means I have reached my limit." - Marafuji Ryo, from the anime Yugioh GX.
Now this stems from the philosophical belief that all things are subjective to each person and there is no true objectivity in the world (I put some stock in this idea, though if someone has a good argument to the contrary I'd be delighted to listen).
Perfection to me is a bad thing, because I cannot be objectively perfect, I can only be the perfect me, and the perfect me is the me that can go no further, I would have reached my limits. This applies to all aspects of things, including identity. If I knew all the answers, I'd be perfect, and therefore worthless. I like me some mystery.
I philosophise constantly. I have a degree in Philosophy, I consider myself a philosopher. I constantly think about these and other existential issues, but I am so glad that I can keep finding questions, because it means I'm not perfect yet, and I can keep going forward. I think if I ever reached perfection, even in a single aspect of my life, I'd have to kill myself.
So yeah, as long as I'm not perfect, existential uncertainty for me will probably never turn into existential depression, the moment it does I'll end my life.
Seems a little too narcissistic for my tastes, (not that you'd care ha ha) but I think it's somewhat necessary to be narcissistic in order to have any self-esteem. So I am inclined to agree with you on some level.Amethyst Wind said:
Perhaps being perfect in all that you try to be, is the meaning of life? You are still objectivley defining what perfection is on a personal level. And you won't lose purpose if you bear in mind that you are unique. That you should seek to find others who are not perfect like you and to bring them to that level? I guess that was Jesus's point of view and he's got quite a big following...
Perhaps once all humans live in perfect harmony we shall find no more need for existance? If everyone had something they and only they were perfect at, then finding a way to use that perfection to benefit eachother mutually, is the key to perfect life?
I'm fairly sure you can sleep soundly in the knowledge that this really won't happen. But it kinda is what all religions are hinting at. It's certainly something I'd like to see before I die.
I never understood existential depression. Most religions describe humans as a secondary product of a higher, more significant intelligence that later punished or abandoned humans for fucking themselves up, and virtually all forms of faith and belief revolve around something being bigger and more important than your own life. Building your own destiny always seemed like the best and most optimistic path one could possibly take. As far as "perfection" and "the meaning to life," those are just more phrases invented by man to describe some kind of goal that must be obtained (or at least considered) to reach some kind of place that's not like living life as usual. All faiths, all beliefs, everything that requires one to believe in something "bigger" rely on the premise that there's something more to life than being born, and one has to achieve it is to get whatever is supposed to be at the end of the yellow brick road.
Had it pretty much consistently for three years or so now. Had it before then too but not so frequently.ravens_nest said:
I get it in short but potent bursts, and it really is the most terrifying and depressing feeling.
I combat it with equal doses of faith, video games, J.R.R Tolkien and asking my mom for advice.
"There's nothing you can do about your mortality except make the best of it."
If that doesn't help, Gandalf will:
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
And if even Gandalf doesn't help, then there's always Jesus. Sometimes, being a good person and having a bit of faith go a long way to finding peace in things to vast to understand.
It's so nice to find out that other people experience this too.
I combat it with equal doses of faith, video games, J.R.R Tolkien and asking my mom for advice.
"There's nothing you can do about your mortality except make the best of it."
If that doesn't help, Gandalf will:
"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
And if even Gandalf doesn't help, then there's always Jesus. Sometimes, being a good person and having a bit of faith go a long way to finding peace in things to vast to understand.
It's so nice to find out that other people experience this too.
I would say the Earth's ability to support life was perfect. Same goes for the nitrogen cycle and the water cycle. The perfect predator for it's perfect prey...Serge A. Storms said:
I wouldn't say perfection is a human manifestation. It's all around us if we look. I think it is every human's responsibility to make sure we live perfectly with the earth. Perhaps this should be our purpose in life? Perhaps it is my purpose to convince people to live like that?
Unfortunately, so called human nature doesn't agree with that philosophy and we destroy and pollute the earth instead...
Knowing that I am powerless to stop it is what causes my existential depression. The knowing that I will never be happy in the world the way it is, and the way it is likely to be. That's enough to give anyone depression.
I'm glad you find it nice to realise other's are in the same boat. This was my intention in creating the thread.ucciolord1 said:
Why on Earth would you assume that Earth's ability to support life was "perfect?" Earth has expendable and rapidly deteriorating natural resources, volcanic activity that comes as a result of having tectonic plates instead of one surface, and we're orbiting a star that will eventually kill us. Earth had ideal circumstances for life, sure, rare and extraordinary circumstances, as far as we know, yes, but "perfect" leaves out a number of flaws with Earth, the Sun, and the laws of nature, which don't allow for "perfect" conditions for life anywhere.ravens_nest said:
People need to stop depending on other things for happiness. To enjoy life you don't need a purpose, in my opinion it's quite the opposite. I realize I'm just an organism on a planet. If I had no emotions I wouldn't even have to think about it, I'd just live eat, sleep, die. Done. But because I do have emotions I enjoy life. I live solely to enjoy, to have fun. Rather than look for a purpose to attribute to my existence, I enjoy the time I have, live for myself. Perhaps these are not your idea of inspiring words, but to me this is the truth and it's enough to keep me alive.
Interesting theory. anyway, multiple things im gonna address, so bear with me.
1: yes, opening a can of worms is undisireable. but how else are you gonna catch the fish in the sea?
2: all that pointless anger? Do something with it! instead of letting it spiral down into the black depths of depression, shift it into a new direction, which puts passion into your work, allowing you to go to levels you could never even dream about otherwise.
3: about our small existence in this world. even the smallest of pebbles is able to divert the mightiest of rivers when in the right location. i know you're gonna say we are not always gonna be put in the right place. we should be glad that doesn't happen. with determination and hard work, we can get to the right location to divert the flood.
4: i have thought about existential depression. i deal with it by creating my own world, so to speak. we deal with life by changing it. we have to actively work towards changing the world. we can't just wait for the world to change by itself. it's never gonna happen if you don't work towards it.
5: finally, if someone is putting you down, remember this: "At the end of the game, the king and the pawn go back inside the same box."
1: yes, opening a can of worms is undisireable. but how else are you gonna catch the fish in the sea?
2: all that pointless anger? Do something with it! instead of letting it spiral down into the black depths of depression, shift it into a new direction, which puts passion into your work, allowing you to go to levels you could never even dream about otherwise.
3: about our small existence in this world. even the smallest of pebbles is able to divert the mightiest of rivers when in the right location. i know you're gonna say we are not always gonna be put in the right place. we should be glad that doesn't happen. with determination and hard work, we can get to the right location to divert the flood.
4: i have thought about existential depression. i deal with it by creating my own world, so to speak. we deal with life by changing it. we have to actively work towards changing the world. we can't just wait for the world to change by itself. it's never gonna happen if you don't work towards it.
5: finally, if someone is putting you down, remember this: "At the end of the game, the king and the pawn go back inside the same box."
If you have ever seen the evidence stating how mind boggingly unlikely life is then you may also come to call the earth perfect. Seriously, if some tiny details were any different, we wouldn't be here at all. Still, perfect is a subjective term. I am also of the opinion that the earth supports the hunter-gatherer way of life for humans. Like the native american way. People lived for thousands of years without coal or crude oil...Serge A. Storms said:
Yes some parts of the earth aren't habitable but I'm not picky when it comes to living at the foot of an active volcano or trying to survive as I am, on the lunar surface.
A warning right here, inb4 VERY MUCH TOO LONG
ON'T READ UNLESS YOU WANT YOUR EYES TO BLEED, seriously, it's much more than an eyeful
You could be right, I might be being narcissistic in thinking that I'm being subjective. Or perhaps it's your subjective viewpoint that I'm being narcissistic in thinking I'm being subjective, or perhaps I'm narcissistic to think that your viewpoint is subjective when you think of my subjective stance as narcissistic, or perha-AAAAGH! It never ends!
"You're so arrogant you think you can keep your arrogance in check." Mirax Terrik, talking to Wedge Antilles, Star Wars Expanded Universe book, Wedge's Gamble
Perhaps being perfect in all that I try to be is the meaning of life, but why would I want to know? If I knew the meaning of life, I'd cease trying to have any ambitions because my ambition would then be perfect, if I knew the end result I would have nothing else to strive for, no evolving goals, no second step for when I reached the first.
I can't objectively define anything, nor can you, or any single person in this reality. Simply because we aren't gods (using the definition that gods are omnipresent, omnipowerful existences, they are all, they experience all, they know all etc), we can't ever reach the level where we can be objective simply because not a single one of us will ever know what objectivity is, there're far too many different viewpoints in the world and we simply are unable to experience them all, at the same time, in the lives that we lead. If we can't see, hear, experience, or know all at all times, we cannot have faith in our words being relevant to all, therefore true objectivity is impossible (choosing to ignore the philosophical viewpoint that if you can conceive of something it does exist somewhere/somehow/someway, I like that idea too, but I don't agree with it, since many ideas are, in my subjective opinion, merely amalgamations of different subjective concepts, like Pegasus = Horse + Wings). We can say something that might be accepted on a wide-range, but we can never call it truth, another quote that I live my life by will be inserted here:
"The truth is always bigger than the words we use to describe it." - Jacen Solo, from the Star Wars Expanded Universe book, Traitor.
Moving on, I don't think we should ever try to bring anyone up to, or down to, our level, since if we wanted someone on our level we would seek to replicate ourselves (and that's another deeply interesting philosophical kettle of fish right there), no-one will ever be on the same level as someone else, the very idea that they are two people prevents it, the only way to be on the same level as another is to be that other, but if you were that other, then there wouldn't be a second person to be on your level, the hindrances, if you see them as negative which I personally don't, of subjectivity prevent us from being more than our single existence). It may have been that Jesus was arrogant enough to believe that his was the level that everyone should exist at, but even if he didn't think he was arrogant but instead wanted everyone to be of one existence in harmony, he was still arrogantly claiming that his definition of harmony was the objective truth of harmony. Might have been why he was killed, since he disagreed on this point with a lot of people, then again might not, as I am neither Jesus nor those who killed him.
If every existence lived in harmony there would only be one existence, it would be everything and nothing at once, it would be aware of all and aware of nothing, as it would itself be all and nothing, all there would be would be itself, since the harmony cannot be achieved with more than one entity.
You'd like to see everyone having one thing they're perfect at, and using their perfect gift to mutual aid all, that would be your perfect life. Of course you'd mean it in a good way, it might be my perfect life too, if it was I'd never want to see it, as I've said perfection is a terrible, horrifying concept to me, it is the end of the road where the only further travel is backwards. I believe that your idea is actually reasonably close to what is considered communism. Communism is a terrific idea in theory, everyone doing their part to make a better world, but as has been shown throughout history it is a concept doomed to failure. I believe that the communists' shared ideas were quite well-intentioned, but their methods and end goals were not feasible; instead of the different abilities divided between all people with each person having a (objectively) perfect understanding of a singular concept, it'd be better to divide all concepts between all people and let them balance their abilities in one area against all others in their own way, it doesn't even have to be like stat points, where everyone gets 100 that can be shared among charisma/strength/intelligence, some people can have more than 100, some less, some might not even have a stat for charisma, it doesn't matter, as long as they progress how they allow themselves to. The better goal that they had is perhaps not helped by the method, as perfection in only one thing per person would lead to conflict; when they came together they would not be able to overlap themselves smoothly since they were all facing different (metaphorical) directions. If everyone had the same skills (skills here doesn't just mean skills, it's a blanket term for subjective existences), even at different levels they would encompass everything and be able to spread themselves out in a smooth, circular pattern, when their radius reached others they would be able to merge like ripples on a pond, becoming larger and more existent together, whereas if everyone was just firing out in a single separate direction, the overlap would be like a game of kerplunk, you might throw up enough support for the bigger balls, but there's still plenty of gaps for other things to fall through.
Of course all that spouting was just what I thought of communism, which your post reminded me of, you might be onto something completely different and I misunderstood you, that'd be much more fun that way, since the only reason I was able to write so much here was because there was someone who engaged me with a completely different viewpoint of my own, taking my own words on different tangents, this whole things gets me existentially and philosophically jazzed, yet more questions, more fun to be had, more ways to extend the road to perfection (the idea is never to have perfection being in one place and to move yourself backwards to prevent reaching the end, down that road lies madness, rather the idea is to take the longer and therefore more rewarding of the two paths to the same goal).
Have fun chewing that over, or not, still worth it for me to write it.
ON'T READ UNLESS YOU WANT YOUR EYES TO BLEED, seriously, it's much more than an eyefulDid I misquote? I never meant to imply that *I* was perfect, just to show what my definition of perfection is, I'm most certainly not perfect, I'm insulted to be called perfect.ravens_nest said:
You could be right, I might be being narcissistic in thinking that I'm being subjective. Or perhaps it's your subjective viewpoint that I'm being narcissistic in thinking I'm being subjective, or perhaps I'm narcissistic to think that your viewpoint is subjective when you think of my subjective stance as narcissistic, or perha-AAAAGH! It never ends!
"You're so arrogant you think you can keep your arrogance in check." Mirax Terrik, talking to Wedge Antilles, Star Wars Expanded Universe book, Wedge's Gamble
Perhaps being perfect in all that I try to be is the meaning of life, but why would I want to know? If I knew the meaning of life, I'd cease trying to have any ambitions because my ambition would then be perfect, if I knew the end result I would have nothing else to strive for, no evolving goals, no second step for when I reached the first.
I can't objectively define anything, nor can you, or any single person in this reality. Simply because we aren't gods (using the definition that gods are omnipresent, omnipowerful existences, they are all, they experience all, they know all etc), we can't ever reach the level where we can be objective simply because not a single one of us will ever know what objectivity is, there're far too many different viewpoints in the world and we simply are unable to experience them all, at the same time, in the lives that we lead. If we can't see, hear, experience, or know all at all times, we cannot have faith in our words being relevant to all, therefore true objectivity is impossible (choosing to ignore the philosophical viewpoint that if you can conceive of something it does exist somewhere/somehow/someway, I like that idea too, but I don't agree with it, since many ideas are, in my subjective opinion, merely amalgamations of different subjective concepts, like Pegasus = Horse + Wings). We can say something that might be accepted on a wide-range, but we can never call it truth, another quote that I live my life by will be inserted here:
"The truth is always bigger than the words we use to describe it." - Jacen Solo, from the Star Wars Expanded Universe book, Traitor.
Moving on, I don't think we should ever try to bring anyone up to, or down to, our level, since if we wanted someone on our level we would seek to replicate ourselves (and that's another deeply interesting philosophical kettle of fish right there), no-one will ever be on the same level as someone else, the very idea that they are two people prevents it, the only way to be on the same level as another is to be that other, but if you were that other, then there wouldn't be a second person to be on your level, the hindrances, if you see them as negative which I personally don't, of subjectivity prevent us from being more than our single existence). It may have been that Jesus was arrogant enough to believe that his was the level that everyone should exist at, but even if he didn't think he was arrogant but instead wanted everyone to be of one existence in harmony, he was still arrogantly claiming that his definition of harmony was the objective truth of harmony. Might have been why he was killed, since he disagreed on this point with a lot of people, then again might not, as I am neither Jesus nor those who killed him.
If every existence lived in harmony there would only be one existence, it would be everything and nothing at once, it would be aware of all and aware of nothing, as it would itself be all and nothing, all there would be would be itself, since the harmony cannot be achieved with more than one entity.
You'd like to see everyone having one thing they're perfect at, and using their perfect gift to mutual aid all, that would be your perfect life. Of course you'd mean it in a good way, it might be my perfect life too, if it was I'd never want to see it, as I've said perfection is a terrible, horrifying concept to me, it is the end of the road where the only further travel is backwards. I believe that your idea is actually reasonably close to what is considered communism. Communism is a terrific idea in theory, everyone doing their part to make a better world, but as has been shown throughout history it is a concept doomed to failure. I believe that the communists' shared ideas were quite well-intentioned, but their methods and end goals were not feasible; instead of the different abilities divided between all people with each person having a (objectively) perfect understanding of a singular concept, it'd be better to divide all concepts between all people and let them balance their abilities in one area against all others in their own way, it doesn't even have to be like stat points, where everyone gets 100 that can be shared among charisma/strength/intelligence, some people can have more than 100, some less, some might not even have a stat for charisma, it doesn't matter, as long as they progress how they allow themselves to. The better goal that they had is perhaps not helped by the method, as perfection in only one thing per person would lead to conflict; when they came together they would not be able to overlap themselves smoothly since they were all facing different (metaphorical) directions. If everyone had the same skills (skills here doesn't just mean skills, it's a blanket term for subjective existences), even at different levels they would encompass everything and be able to spread themselves out in a smooth, circular pattern, when their radius reached others they would be able to merge like ripples on a pond, becoming larger and more existent together, whereas if everyone was just firing out in a single separate direction, the overlap would be like a game of kerplunk, you might throw up enough support for the bigger balls, but there's still plenty of gaps for other things to fall through.
Of course all that spouting was just what I thought of communism, which your post reminded me of, you might be onto something completely different and I misunderstood you, that'd be much more fun that way, since the only reason I was able to write so much here was because there was someone who engaged me with a completely different viewpoint of my own, taking my own words on different tangents, this whole things gets me existentially and philosophically jazzed, yet more questions, more fun to be had, more ways to extend the road to perfection (the idea is never to have perfection being in one place and to move yourself backwards to prevent reaching the end, down that road lies madness, rather the idea is to take the longer and therefore more rewarding of the two paths to the same goal).
Have fun chewing that over, or not, still worth it for me to write it.
Do you know how many problems there are in the world? Well its impossible to tell yes, but pick one, apply your gifted mind to it and make it dissappear. You don't even have to look at the big picture, just make as many problems go away in your lifetime as you can fit in your time. You are feeling depressed because you have all this analytical ability yet have no knowledge about how to actually apply it, well everyone starts small with no knowledge at all, and if you fail try it again in another way using what you have learned from the experience. Optimism and pessimism are both irrelivant, just do or do not.
Write down a list of problems and pick one you think you are best suited to with your current know-how, not which would be the most meaningful or important, that will just let you start one and then reconsider 'oh, this one may be more important actually' which leads to never getting anything done. Stick to *one* and pace yourself, you will loose enthusiasm, the successful people are the ones with endurance. If you have a major albiet unrealistic ideal keep it as a secondary objective to work on while you work on they more achievable goals, you will likely come up with some good ideas over time wether or not you are doing some good, so its best to do the small things than nothing at all.
Write down a list of problems and pick one you think you are best suited to with your current know-how, not which would be the most meaningful or important, that will just let you start one and then reconsider 'oh, this one may be more important actually' which leads to never getting anything done. Stick to *one* and pace yourself, you will loose enthusiasm, the successful people are the ones with endurance. If you have a major albiet unrealistic ideal keep it as a secondary objective to work on while you work on they more achievable goals, you will likely come up with some good ideas over time wether or not you are doing some good, so its best to do the small things than nothing at all.
I got what you meant. I'm assuming this character Marafuji Ryo met an interesting conclusion?Amethyst Wind said:
So I'm trying to work out whether or not you aspire to perfection. You seem adamant that you will feel useless once you realise you cannot go any further along that particular path. Yet I wonder if you are ignoring the fact that there are many different paths to perfection, paths that we all walk down as we stumble through life. If you are truly afraid of it, knowing that you cannot objectivley define it, that does not seem wise. Or at the least I can sense the depth of your dread. If you see perfection as the finishing line could this mean you are simply afraid of living? Correct me if I'm wrong but I would look upon that as a tad unhealthy.
And yes, I guess I would love to believe in communism. But not as we know it now. It is too late for communism. Man has tasted success and ever-increasing quantities of power and I fear there are simply too many people who would prey upon and dominate those like myself who honestly believe in equality and mutual benefit.
I think my greatest aspiration would be to live with the earth again, like the native americans. That could almost be described as communism. After all, people lived like that for many thousands of years. All of a sudden, Man desired more. Science lashed out at religion with commendable intent but devastating consequences. Perhaps when religion as we know it is unified and science is tamed and satisifed, we shall know perfection. And it will be glorious.
Could the power of hope be what banishes the affliction of existential knowledge?
This is some most excellent advice. I didn't expect to see anything that would stop me in my tracks like that. I blame my frustration on people, the system, the government. Anyone who would see me fail in my attempt to change my world for myself. It is the wisdom of rising above it all is what I need. Willpower, I can summon. A guide, I can only hope and wait for...Burnswell said: