explain certain parts of FF7 to me please (possible spoilers?)

[Mackinator]

I find it funny how everyone is always raving about how great the story of FFVII is, and still nobody seems to know exactly what the heck was actually going on in the game...

I know what you mean, but a complex story is a great one, and i understand it fully. It takes some reading up or the video that some people havnt seen. (Goto the basement of the Niebelheim Mansion and goto the library and you will see the long video that explains why cloud was so messed up. If you dont have the game anymore just read up. the story is incredible, it just takes a little understanding.

 

[Mackinator]

basically it was never the real seph just cloud's screwed memory of him and jenova pretending to be him until the final boss fight which you kill his ass with omni slash. so in others words he just fell in mako and stayed frozen while jenova went around spreading her cells pretending to be him... lame yes

WRONG read up mon ami.

 

[StarStruckStrumpets]

The Sephiroth in AC is just the manifestation of Jenova cells, as you see, Kadaj transforms into Sephiroth, because he is linked to the Jenova cells, so I guess you could say that Sephiroth is just some cells in a box.

 

[Axeli]

basically it was never the real seph just cloud's screwed memory of him and jenova pretending to be him until the final boss fight which you kill his ass with omni slash. so in others words he just fell in mako and stayed frozen while jenova went around spreading her cells pretending to be him... lame yes

A couple corrections...

The omnislash battle was the one taking place in Cloud's mind, while the Bizarro and Safer actually happened.

While it's Jenova's body (in the shape of Spehiroth), Sephiroth is the one controlling it. In that sense it's the real Spehiroth the whole time.

Jenova never spread her cells during VII. It was Hojo who was behind implanting Sephiroth's and Jenova's cells into people.

 

[Mackinator]

First, I'm assuming the real Sephiroth was killed at Nibelheim? Does the "real" one ever return?

Real Sephiroth was and was not killed in Nibelheim, depending how you define it. After falling into the Lifestream, he did (if I recall) dissolve in it, but his will never died. His dissolved body and cells eventually returned together at Northern Crater.
This also caused the people with Sephiroth's cells in their bodies to seek out him.

If not, who is the Sephiroth at the end of FF7 and in Advent Children (no I didn't watch that yet either)?

The Sephiroth at the end is the real one, expect for the very last battle which takes place inside Cloud's mind. The Sephiroth in AC on the other hand... Uhh, well not sure. Apparently his undying will again manifested through Kadaj and the Jenova cells.

Were there any Sephiroth "clones" that were actually clones i.e. looked like him? If the real one never comes back, is he up in the lifestream somewhere?

No. FF7 used the word clone very broadly, refering to people who simply had some Sephiroth's cells implanted in them.
However, the Sephiroth you chase for the most of the game isn't actually Sephiroth, but Jenova using her shapeshifting abilities to look like him. On the other hand, Sephiroth was also controlling Jenova at that point from Lifestream/Northern Crater.

And the real Sephiroth is now in the Lifestream, refusing to fully die. He most likely hasn't got a body though, unless his cells have again started to reunite at some location.

Yes he did DIE at the end of FF7 but since the Jenova cells still had a link with him...he reformed himself after the events of FF7
But no, you are WRONG about the one "in clouds mind"
Cloud's Spirit still feels the link between them with the Jenova cells that are in him and his Spirit "chases" after Sephiroths which is now free in the lifestream. Cloud is no longer controlled by Sephiroth as e is weakened and Cloud is now able to defeat the Spirit of Sephiroth. He did destroy Seph at this point though the Jenova cells that went across the world reformed Kadaj and eventually Seph.

 

[Axeli]

But no, you are WRONG about the one "in clouds mind"
Cloud's Spirit still feels the link between them with the Jenova cells that are in him and his Spirit "chases" after Sephiroths which is now free in the lifestream. Cloud is no longer controlled by Sephiroth as e is weakened and Cloud is now able to defeat the Spirit of Sephiroth. He did destroy Seph at this point though the Jenova cells that went across the world reformed Kadaj and eventually Seph.

The battle takes place on a spiritual level nonetheless... Was this piece of info about Cloud's spirit chasing after Sephiroth's from the Ultimania guide or where? I don't remember seeing that comfirmed anywhere.

 

[Mackinator]

But no, you are WRONG about the one "in clouds mind"
Cloud's Spirit still feels the link between them with the Jenova cells that are in him and his Spirit "chases" after Sephiroths which is now free in the lifestream. Cloud is no longer controlled by Sephiroth as e is weakened and Cloud is now able to defeat the Spirit of Sephiroth. He did destroy Seph at this point though the Jenova cells that went across the world reformed Kadaj and eventually Seph.

The battle takes place on a spiritual level nonetheless... Was this piece of info about Cloud's spirit chasing after Sephiroth's from the Ultimania guide or where? I don't remember seeing that comfirmed anywhere.

#

It shows Cloud travelling down though the Lifestream so yeah im pretty sure its in the Lifestream. As to the Spiritual level, yes you were right.

 

[irrelevantnugget]

I'm 95% certain that Jenova was the "real bad guy" behind the whole thing, and Sephiroth was just a sap with an unusually strong connection to her (due to SOLDIER treatments), which Jenova used to control his mind.

This, basically.

Sephiroth died when he fell down at the reactor, into the lifestream (of which mako energy is obtained, and materia is made). He somehow drifted and ended up in the Northern Crater, where his body was hibernating (later, Cloud wakes him up), and because of the constant mako infusion, he mutated into, well... Safer Sephiroth, eventually.
The Sephiroth that Avalanche was chasing, was just a part of Jenova all along, that took Sephiroth's form.

Crisis Core elaborates a bit more on the story (for example, there were 3 one-winged people: Sephiroth, Angeal and, err.. the third guy's name escapes me at the moment, but he's a complete twat who keeps saying THE GIFT OF THE GODDESS THE GIFT OF THE GODDESS THE GIFT OF THE GODDESS THE GIFT OF THE GODDESS. Pissed me off to no end.

 

[Nicholas Traill]

First, I'm assuming the real Sephiroth was killed at Nibelheim?

Yes. No matter what way you look at it - Sephiroth died when he fell into the reactor. That's that. His will was carried through because he took JENOVA with him + the cells in his body. Had he not fallen with JENOVA's head with him, things would've probably been considerably better.

"Does the "real" one ever return?"

- Nope. It's all JENOVA and Sephiroth's will I'm afraid. If you have ever looked into what Aerith's mother says to Professor Gast in the Icicle Lodge - she speaks about a creature/Calamity that fell from the skies. It morphed as one of the Ancients, appeared to help them, decieved them and made them ill killing a lot of them off. It required a great effort by the Ancients to seal JENOVA at the Northern Crater. When Shin-Ra dig it up, it worsens everything.

If not, who is the Sephiroth at the end of FF7 and in Advent Children (no I didn't watch that yet either)?

- Sephiroth at the end of FFVII is a mutated corpse of the body that fell from the reactor. His body had been enhanced due to the effects the Lifestream had on it, and JENOVA was able to channel that energy in such a way. Sephiroth is DEAD. D-E-A-D. There are no two ways about it. But because he was a willing catalyst for taking JENOVA to a point of being able to cast Meteor - his will was emulated by JENOVA - just like it did with the Ancients before. I can also prove this further with what Sephiroth says at the temple of the Ancients. He states that he wants to wound the planet - and stand at the centre of the wound, to become a some sort of God-like creature.

But if you rewind to when you find him in the Shin-Ra Mansion Basement - you'll see that he talks about serving 'Mother' - JENOVA. He states nothing of this after his death - and instead talks more about ruling the planet by himself - almost as if his 'Mother' wasn't important. This is also why parts of JENOVA fly off Sephiroth when you see him in game. It's arm becomes a manifestation that you have to destroy on the Shin-Ra Cargo Boat.

The Sephiroth at the end of AC is the body of Kadaj playing host to JENOVA's shape-shifting ability and of course - a part of Kadaj's and Sephiroth's will also helps JENOVA manage to manipulate them properly. Kadaj dies of course at the end.

Were there any Sephiroth "clones" that were actually clones i.e. looked like him?

- None. Not exact look-alikes anyway. 'Clones' was a bad word for Hojo to use. Remnants is better. You find a man with a numbered tatoo in the Sector 6 Slums. He can't speak, or do shit except for go "oooo. aaaaaaah". Red XIII is another experiment of Hojo's - only this time using a rare species. But the experiment was still the same.

If the real one never comes back, is he up in the lifestream somewhere?

- He was in the Lifestream - and ended up at the Northern Crater, crystalised in Mako, garnering power from the stream. But he's still dead remember - it's just his corpse. You destroy his corpse when you defeat him in his One-Winged form. So after the original game is over - Sephiroth's body is DONE. The original is no more.

So people will then try to contradict this by saying, "Wait a minute - Sephiroth appears in the game. If he's crystalised in Mako at the Northern Crater, how can you see him at other points in the game prior to discovering him there?"

Because that's not Sephiroth - it's JENOVA. JENOVA can morph to take shape of things. It's how the character you trust with the Black Materia at the Northern Crater get's tricked into going to hand over the materia to Cloud - (usually by shape-shifting into Tifa or Barrett, or whoever depending on how you entrusted this task to).

Also - the reason why JENOVA can do all these things is because it escaped from it's holding in the Shin-Ra building. Dragging its deformed, alien carcass everywhere - clawing at the walls and the floor when you're following the trail of blood to President Shin-Ra's office.

Thanks for any and all answers, and I appreciate no belittling of my lack of FF7 knowledge.

Lol - no problem and that's understandable. What you need to remember is that Cloud and co never fully figure this out themselves either. That's what makes the plot so deliciously confusing. The tragedy with Sephiroth is that he never meets his real mother. Lucrecia was kept away from Sephiroth - and because she was so driven with guilt about letting Hojo experiment on Sephiroth she went and crystalised herself in a Mako Fountain - how quaint eh?

So yeah, Sephiroth was never set out to be bad.. just reading all those books and never knowing his true Mother drove him absolutely mental.

Feel free to flame me if you disagree with anything I've said - I won't care for your response.

However if you want to be civil and debate any points I've made here in a civilised manner - feel free. It's all up to interpretation apparently - but IMO, that's how it happened and how it was written originally.

 

[Internet Kraken]

This plot sounds as ham-fisted as Metal Gear Solids...

Agreed

 

[Amund]

The Wizard did it.

 

[Mackinator]

First, I'm assuming the real Sephiroth was killed at Nibelheim?

Yes. No matter what way you look at it - Sephiroth died when he fell into the reactor. That's that. His will was carried through because he took JENOVA with him + the cells in his body. Had he not fallen with JENOVA's head with him, things would've probably been considerably better.

"Does the "real" one ever return?"

- Nope. It's all JENOVA and Sephiroth's will I'm afraid. If you have ever looked into what Aerith's mother says to Professor Gast in the Icicle Lodge - she speaks about a creature/Calamity that fell from the skies. It morphed as one of the Ancients, appeared to help them, decieved them and made them ill killing a lot of them off. It required a great effort by the Ancients to seal JENOVA at the Northern Crater. When Shin-Ra dig it up, it worsens everything.

If not, who is the Sephiroth at the end of FF7 and in Advent Children (no I didn't watch that yet either)?

- Sephiroth at the end of FFVII is a mutated corpse of the body that fell from the reactor. His body had been enhanced due to the effects the Lifestream had on it, and JENOVA was able to channel that energy in such a way. Sephiroth is DEAD. D-E-A-D. There are no two ways about it. But because he was a willing catalyst for taking JENOVA to a point of being able to cast Meteor - his will was emulated by JENOVA - just like it did with the Ancients before. I can also prove this further with what Sephiroth says at the temple of the Ancients. He states that he wants to wound the planet - and stand at the centre of the wound, to become a some sort of God-like creature.

But if you rewind to when you find him in the Shin-Ra Mansion Basement - you'll see that he talks about serving 'Mother' - JENOVA. He states nothing of this after his death - and instead talks more about ruling the planet by himself - almost as if his 'Mother' wasn't important. This is also why parts of JENOVA fly off Sephiroth when you see him in game. It's arm becomes a manifestation that you have to destroy on the Shin-Ra Cargo Boat.

The Sephiroth at the end of AC is the body of Kadaj playing host to JENOVA's shape-shifting ability and of course - a part of Kadaj's and Sephiroth's will also helps JENOVA manage to manipulate them properly. Kadaj dies of course at the end.

Were there any Sephiroth "clones" that were actually clones i.e. looked like him?

- None. Not exact look-alikes anyway. 'Clones' was a bad word for Hojo to use. Remnants is better. You find a man with a numbered tatoo in the Sector 6 Slums. He can't speak, or do shit except for go "oooo. aaaaaaah". Red XIII is another experiment of Hojo's - only this time using a rare species. But the experiment was still the same.

If the real one never comes back, is he up in the lifestream somewhere?

- He was in the Lifestream - and ended up at the Northern Crater, crystalised in Mako, garnering power from the stream. But he's still dead remember - it's just his corpse. You destroy his corpse when you defeat him in his One-Winged form. So after the original game is over - Sephiroth's body is DONE. The original is no more.

So people will then try to contradict this by saying, "Wait a minute - Sephiroth appears in the game. If he's crystalised in Mako at the Northern Crater, how can you see him at other points in the game prior to discovering him there?"

Because that's not Sephiroth - it's JENOVA. JENOVA can morph to take shape of things. It's how the character you trust with the Black Materia at the Northern Crater get's tricked into going to hand over the materia to Cloud - (usually by shape-shifting into Tifa or Barrett, or whoever depending on how you entrusted this task to).

Also - the reason why JENOVA can do all these things is because it escaped from it's holding in the Shin-Ra building. Dragging its deformed, alien carcass everywhere - clawing at the walls and the floor when you're following the trail of blood to President Shin-Ra's office.

Thanks for any and all answers, and I appreciate no belittling of my lack of FF7 knowledge.

Lol - no problem and that's understandable. What you need to remember is that Cloud and co never fully figure this out themselves either. That's what makes the plot so deliciously confusing. The tragedy with Sephiroth is that he never meets his real mother. Lucrecia was kept away from Sephiroth - and because she was so driven with guilt about letting Hojo experiment on Sephiroth she went and crystalised herself in a Mako Fountain - how quaint eh?

So yeah, Sephiroth was never set out to be bad.. just reading all those books and never knowing his true Mother drove him absolutely mental.

Feel free to flame me if you disagree with anything I've said - I won't care for your response.

However if you want to be civil and debate any points I've made here in a civilised manner - feel free. It's all up to interpretation apparently - but IMO, that's how it happened and how it was written originally.

Yeah thats it all right ... im NOT good at explaining things, i wouldnt try to deny that. Good Job

 

[Axeli]

This plot sounds as ham-fisted as Metal Gear Solids...

Agreed

The term you're looking for is convoluted. Ham-fisted = not subtle enough. VII's plot is the exact opposite of that.

 

[Lios]

OK, so I never fully played FF7, just watched my boyfriend play some of it, yet still like most of the characters and the story, etc.
However, there is one thing that confuses me, even after reading several people's thoughts on the story and AC, etc.
I'm not sure if these are really spoilers anymore, since the game has been out so long and so has AC, so if you still haven't touched anything FF7 related you should probably leave this topic now...
5
4
3
2
1
First, I'm assuming the real Sephiroth was killed at Nibelheim? Does the "real" one ever return? If not, who is the Sephiroth at the end of FF7 and in Advent Children (no I didn't watch that yet either)? Were there any Sephiroth "clones" that were actually clones i.e. looked like him? If the real one never comes back, is he up in the lifestream somewhere?
Thanks for any and all answers, and I appreciate no belittling of my lack of FF7 knowledge.

The real sephiroth lived throughout the whole game. The twist is that cloud was an attempted clone. Only in a technical sense though, they simply used the same method of injecting JENOVA's cells as they did with Sephiroth. Also, anyone who did the work to find out every last bit of the plot will know who Sephiroth's real father is. A hint: It isn't Hojo.


There were a lot of Sephiroth clones. None of them succeeded though. Jack and Cloud were the closest to being near complete replicas.


Advent Children was really just a gigantic Fanservice event. That bit with sephiroth in it was bullshit, but still pretty cool. maybe cloud was just delusional and saw whats-his-face as sephiroth while fighting him.

 

[Eiseman]

I find it funny how everyone is always raving about how great the story of FFVII is, and still nobody seems to know exactly what the heck was actually going on in the game...

I believe that's the very reason the story is so lauded. It certainly is for me. The intrigue is in what they don't tell you.

In fact, I just realized something right now. The only reason Sephiroth is able to control these "clones" in the first place is because he happened to have Jenova's head on him as he fell into the Lifestream. He used her head to trigger the Reunion, didn't he.

 

[Axeli]

I find it funny how everyone is always raving about how great the story of FFVII is, and still nobody seems to know exactly what the heck was actually going on in the game...

I believe that's the very reason the story is so lauded. It certainly is for me. The intrigue is in what they don't tell you.

In fact, I just realized something right now. The only reason Sephiroth is able to control these "clones" in the first place is because he happened to have Jenova's head on him as he fell into the Lifestream. He used her head to trigger the Reunion, didn't he.

Umm, no. It was Spehiroth's own will and power that made his cells reunite, thus calling together all the people who had his cells injected in them.

 

[-Seraph-]

I'm not 100% clear on it myself, but from what I understand, Sephiroth's consciousness merged with Jenova on Mt. Nibel. That body died, but a new one formed from Jenova cells. He proceeded through the story of the game, but basically, we never actually meet Sephiroth. It's really just a form of Jenova, chosen because of the emotional impact such a (in)famous face as an enemy would create.

I'm 95% certain that Jenova was the "real bad guy" behind the whole thing, and Sephiroth was just a sap with an unusually strong connection to her (due to SOLDIER treatments), which Jenova used to control his mind.

You sir win a cookie for getting the subtlety behind JENOVA *hands him cookie*. There are only a few tiny things I would change in that but yes, JENOVA was the true threat in FF7 and Sephiroth was nothing more than a JENOVA's metaphysical avatar. The two are one in the same and yet not.

AH HAH!! found it!! I posted this theory in another discussion a long time ago which is pretty much my JENOVA theory and pretty much explains the relationship behind JENOVA and Sephiroth.

Spoiler

Well since your one of the few people who has ever really shown an interest in my theory I shall elaborate since this topic is FF, might as well talk about anything related to it.

You see I saw JENOVA as the true threat because although many have stated that Sephiroth overpowerd JENOVA, I find that to be partially true. It was in fact a combination of both of them, Sephiroth and JENOVA both maniplulated each other and pretty much became one being, one entity. Sephiroth went mad after finding out his origins and decided to take his "Mother" to the promised land, that we know and that we know for sure was sephiroths doing. Now remember the reunion theory? thats JENOVA's doing as all parts of JENOVA's have the desire to lead back to one another to make JENOVA whole again. The combination of Sephiroths madness and his proximity to JENOVA led the two to come together and begin their struggle to control eachother. After sephiroth was thrown into the lifestream along with her head they became more linked to one another. Now we know that you never truely confront sephiroth until the end where you fight him in the life stream, the entire game you are fighting his manifestations which are parts of JENOVA or"Clones" of him, and they are al governed by the reunion theory to lead back to sephiroth and JENOVA and become one being once again.

Now for the real kick, JENOVA's true nature plays into all of this and it is that which makes me see JENOVA as the true villian and threat throughout the game, with sephiroth as nothing but a tool, a very powerful tool. JENOVA is nothing more than a virus that manifests itself in the form of other things, the Infalna reports at the icicle inn state this. Ifalna state's how "it" took the shape of their fallen comrads and began to infect and turn people mad. She (like this alian from the movie "The thing") pretty much mimics that which she consumes or assimilates. Sephiroth was pretty much infected by her from birth as he was born with these cells inside him. When he got close to her it triggered something, yes the shock of his irigins would leave him pissed off, but sephirotalways had a great sense of dignity that what he did. JENOVA can control anyone or thing that contains her cells and she uses sephiroth to control cloud and the clones. When the two joined the lifestream she took over sephiroths mind as he would have been overcome with mako poisoning leaving his mind as weak and frail as clouds was. So the two became partially augmented and since JENOVA is nothing more than a mimic, she became sephiroth herself and took on his persona. Now a bit of sephiroth himself could have lived on isnide of her but for the most part she was controlling him and a subtle way as her very nature to to infect and destroy. So using sephiroth she had him control cloud and the clones, and the whole nine yards. The whole time sephiroth has been infected by her and his will was influenced by that of JENOVA.

Now at the end of the game you kill whats left of her (her head), and then you fight sephy himself who has recovered from fatal injuries most likely due to the lifestream. Then you fight his angelic form, this to me looks like a clear sign of the two of them becoming one being, one entity. Sephiroths mind lives on in JENOVA's cells and JENVOA has every trait of sephiroths and is him. All of JENOVA's body has been destroyed BUT what remaining cells are left are within spehiroths body. She can never truely die, nor can sephiroth as long as even a small fraction of them remains. You destroy them in 7, and AC they both come back as some of her remnants were left, and those remnants still contians sephiroths will which has also become JENOVA's. Sephroth is nothing more than a puppet himself just as cloud was to sephiroth. Sephiroth was infected with JENOVA's cells and was over time consumed and assmillated by her. So the fusion of the two became to terrifying force that desired to absorbe the lifestream and destroy everything.

So yea this is why I saw JENOVA as the true villain as she was the catalyst for everything and all actions (for me that is) point dirtectly back to her very nature and being. Sorry if some of it may not make much sense of is a tad confusing, I'm still waking up as it's only 9am here lol. Also it's really hard for me to articulate this theaory, it's also easier to explain through real vocal conversation than written for me but yea...thats my theory on the crisis in 7 so excuse the long post and what may be a tad confusing read lol.

/end geek talk

 

[PTSpyder]

Advent children is horrible and should be stricken from the record. I've read more fan-fics then I can count that did a considerably more effective job of extending the storyline then AC. AC was all visual flash and showmanship, without any sort of coherent story at all. I honestly do not believe that Sque-enix could have made a worse product while raping its fan base and their wallets.

 

[Axeli]

Oh god, so much miss-information.

The real sephiroth lived throughout the whole game. The twist is that cloud was an attempted clone. Only in a technical sense though, they simply used the same method of injecting JENOVA's cells as they did with Sephiroth.

Not even close. First of all, it wasn't even pure Jenova cells Cloud and the other clones were injected with, but Sephiroth's cells.

Secondly, Sephiroth was injected with Jenova cells with a completely different method. During fetal stage to be precise. Cloud was adult/teen when he was injected with Sephiroth's cells.

Also, anyone who did the work to find out every last bit of the plot will know who Sephiroth's real father is. A hint: It isn't Hojo.

Nowhere is it said that Vincent is Sephiroths real father. Just because he was toghether with Lucrecia before doesn't mean he was the one who knocked her up. It's possible, but the series hasn't even hinted it as far as I know.

There were a lot of Sephiroth clones. None of them succeeded though. Jack and Cloud were the closest to being near complete replicas.

The purpose of creating Sephiroth "clones" was never to replicate Sephiroth, nor did it ever have anything to do with actual cloning.
Hojo simply wanted to test his Reunion Theory, which was that even though Sephiroth dissolved into the Lifestream, his cells would eventually seek to return together, making his test subjects with those cells in them seek out Sephiroth.

Advent Children was really just a gigantic Fanservice event. That bit with sephiroth in it was bullshit, but still pretty cool. maybe cloud was just delusional and saw whats-his-face as sephiroth while fighting him.

Agreed, though he wasn't hallucinating.