Extra Punctuation: The Sandbox Killed Batman
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
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I'm sorry but I just can't agree with Yahtzee with this one.
Due to time constraints he most likely some of the Arkham City backstory entries that are unlocked when solving Riddler riddles. They explain what the bad guys have been doing since the opening of the prison and what part they play in the story as a whole, sure it's probably better but it'd be hard to fit it all in to the game so the stories are a great way to give even the smallest villain (even the bloody Ratcatcher of all people) a part in the Arkham City mythos. Also the art direction in the game is so amazing that half of the villains characterisation comes from their looks and the environments they surround themselves with. But ultimatly this is a story between Batman and the Joker (along with the mystery villain who I won't spoil) and pushing any more villains to the forefront instead of having them masterfully woven in to the background would have overpowered the story.
With the travel, it is a matter of taste but as soon as I got the grappel boost upgrade and learnt how to build up speed with dive boosting travel became amazingly fun and natural to me. And yeah the environments can feel a bit empty at times but I believe that was actually part of the design choice to make the atmosphere feel bleak and desolate but even then there is plenty to do with the random acts of violence, the calls, Riddler trophies and clues, etc.
I dunno I loved the game and while I can see where Yahtzee is coming I think he is plain wrong in this situation.
Due to time constraints he most likely some of the Arkham City backstory entries that are unlocked when solving Riddler riddles. They explain what the bad guys have been doing since the opening of the prison and what part they play in the story as a whole, sure it's probably better but it'd be hard to fit it all in to the game so the stories are a great way to give even the smallest villain (even the bloody Ratcatcher of all people) a part in the Arkham City mythos. Also the art direction in the game is so amazing that half of the villains characterisation comes from their looks and the environments they surround themselves with. But ultimatly this is a story between Batman and the Joker (along with the mystery villain who I won't spoil) and pushing any more villains to the forefront instead of having them masterfully woven in to the background would have overpowered the story.
With the travel, it is a matter of taste but as soon as I got the grappel boost upgrade and learnt how to build up speed with dive boosting travel became amazingly fun and natural to me. And yeah the environments can feel a bit empty at times but I believe that was actually part of the design choice to make the atmosphere feel bleak and desolate but even then there is plenty to do with the random acts of violence, the calls, Riddler trophies and clues, etc.
I dunno I loved the game and while I can see where Yahtzee is coming I think he is plain wrong in this situation.
I actually really liked the gliding. Also to all the people recommending Evil Genius, I'm 99% sure Yahtzee said he's sick of people recommending it to him or something. It might have been in one of the Overlord reviews.
Also I think yahtzee's giving the villains too much cred. I mean what would Joker bring to the world? Or Mad Hatter? You gotta remember that most of them are clinically insane and obsessive. Not that Batman isn't but I know who I'd rather have as a pal. Not to mention the whole murder thing the villains propogate.
Also I think yahtzee's giving the villains too much cred. I mean what would Joker bring to the world? Or Mad Hatter? You gotta remember that most of them are clinically insane and obsessive. Not that Batman isn't but I know who I'd rather have as a pal. Not to mention the whole murder thing the villains propogate.
That last paragraph was the single most whiplash-inducing paragraph ever, going through insightful, disturbing, and hilarious in seconds. Good show!
To adequately simulate the villain experience, they'd need to revise the sandbox. It's not just about recruiting, I'd need to be able to formulate plans, and I'd want diversity there. Real diversity, not "five or six choices, mix and match."
Heroes are easy. They ARE reactive, and as such, are plot dependent. Well, maybe not plot, but certainly villain. Most games, even sandboxes, still have large chunks of "go here, do this."
Heroes are easy. They ARE reactive, and as such, are plot dependent. Well, maybe not plot, but certainly villain. Most games, even sandboxes, still have large chunks of "go here, do this."
I agree that Batman should not be doing acrobatics around the city but, he does have a bitchin' car to exploit. They should have had some sort of car chance sequence where you get to drive around in the batmobile and fire "bat anti-shark repellent" at fleeing criminals in cars or something.
I'm perfectly okay with Arkham City's sprawling urban streets. They packed every inch of that game with secrets, battles, riddles, challenges, and easter eggs. For such a big game, there was a TON to do and it never felt too big or too empty.
The problem wasn't the size of the map or the sandbox style. It was simply that a lot of the things to DO were arduous and tedious. More variety and diversity would've made the entire game more enjoyable... but it already was plenty enjoyable.
The problem wasn't the size of the map or the sandbox style. It was simply that a lot of the things to DO were arduous and tedious. More variety and diversity would've made the entire game more enjoyable... but it already was plenty enjoyable.
Only 2 EPs ago, you mentioned Saint's Row 2. It's like this month is some sort of climax, as it proves that (probably) the supervillain (Firefox says that word is misspelled, but not its opposite...) beats the superhero in attention-grabbing, and the rivalry between Battlefield 3 and Modern Warfare 3 is tackled by you.
Speaking of supervillains, I think popular culture might be liking them more. Animated features Despicable Me and (that one with the blue alien mad genius) come to my mind as examples.
Speaking of supervillains, I think popular culture might be liking them more. Animated features Despicable Me and (that one with the blue alien mad genius) come to my mind as examples.
I fail to see how you could have trouble with the Gliding and Grappling Hook mechanics, Yahtzee. I got around perfectly fine, and I grabbed the Grappling Upgrade as early as I could so I could super-Grapple onto selected edges as I was gliding to kick myself back up and continue gliding. It's Catwoman's method of getting around (i.e. pouncing and whipping) that got on my tits; the pouncing was basically forced QTE's that begrudgingly force Catwoman up the building if you fail them anyway and the indicators are horribly drawn so I can't tell how to time the button press.
I have to disagree with Yahtzee. Yes, you can grapple and glide, but there's a certain degree of skill to doing it well. Batman can dive bomb down to the ground and pull up with a faster velocity and rise higher; combining gliding, dive bombing, and grapple-boosting combines into what is probably the best transportation in a superhero game since Spider-man 2. This is what I think, sure, but I'd hardly call it "clunky" - it's really quite graceful.Zach of Fables said:I haven't actually played Arkham City yet but based on what Yahtzee wrote it does sound like AC, like AA, is the experience of being Batman. This time, though, it's not necessarily in a good way.
If you read the comics, Batman does get around by shooting grappling hooks everywhere.
And also by running, climbing on buildings, and so forth. And rarely the Batmobile too. I understand how in a video game that can get very old very fast. But it's still how Batman would function on a minute to minute basis when out fighting crime.
I'm a pretty hardcore comics and Batman fan, so maybe I'll still find some fun in traveling that way. Maybe Arkham City just requires a little more imagination than some other games?
There's a wonderful side-mission that puts Batman through some augmented reality gliding challenges (courtesy of the Batcomputer) and it really shows off how advanced gliding tactics can shake up the game significantly.
Cid SilverWing said:
Totally agree. Traversing the city was one of the most improved aspects of Arkham City. The improved combat is also great. I actually look to pick fights and I'm doing the combat challenges because the combat is so much more fun than Arkham Asylum. I liked the combat in Arkham Asylum but it didn't have enough depth IMO. I agree there is some hit to the level design compared to AA because of the bigger world, but the level design is still solid and better than most linear games. The Riddler challenges were much improved and you had to use your mind to get a lot of the trophies instead of just waiting to get a gadget so you could line launch over to a trophy, use the batclaw to pull open a ventilation grate, etc. Lastly, I loved the story so much more in Arkham City, and I'll remember that iconic ending probably for the rest of my life.Andy of Comix Inc said:
Great column. Echoes a few of the thoughts Zak Smith (the guy from I Hit It With My Axe, whose dnd blog is the precise opposite of that execrable video show) who said heroes are less interesting to play as than villains because they only react, whereas villains also set the rules of engagement. (A hero who goes to a church will have some sort of church-related adventure, but it isn't clear what kind; a villain will decide whether he'll try to dress as a ghost to scare people off the real state or kidnap nuns one by one to power a sin engine, and thus what kind of game he's playing.) Then again, perhaps villains are more suited to tabletop, while heroes are better suited to videogames, which don't have a human behind them to act in response to everything and need a rigid framework or they'll go off the rails.
I actually thought a lot about how MHYTRMG would work, after the initial mention on the SR2 video.
The tone would be like in SR2, in which you are in a colorful bizarre cartoon world where everything is a degree of magnitude above what it shoulde be, but gameplay would be like Prototype, in which you'd use your own mode of transportation and attack rather than relying on mundane vehicles and weapons. There'd probably be some sort of skill tree so you had to choose whether you had a death ray and an evilmobile or a jetpack and a freeze ray.
The story progression would work like SR2, you'd have to commit 'acts of villainy' to gain infamy and proceed through the story. But the 'story' would be clearly the backdrop; the meat of the game would be the 'acts of villany'. You could be dumb and just act like your cousin when he comes over to play GTA and just kill a bunch of people, or you could be a cool Lex Luthor creature and plan extensive heists while trying to mantain a dignified public persona. Either would count. There would be very few story events, maybe four or five in the whole game, and many acts of villainy, so you'd spend the whole game working on those.
There would be wanted stars, just like in a GTA game, and in a similar way. One star, police; two star, heavy police (all points bulletin); three stars, specialized SWAT like team; four, army/national guard/whatever. At five stars, things start to get different: you'd get one of several teams specialized in taking out supervillains. They're human, but they're specially trained to deal with people like you. They use wildly different tactics and the one that manages to defeat you the most often will be called with more frequency when you reach that level.
The sixth star is a superhero, of course. Superheroes would be an event in their own, with the game freezing to show BANGLE BANNER! arriving on the scene. Superheroes would have 'wanted' stars on their own. At first you'd only fight lame superheroes that were just super strong/skilled people in bright costumes, but as you defeated them more dangerous heroes appeared. At the highest tier there would only be two or three superheroes, one of whom would be a Superman expy who would be able to kick your ass very, very quickly. An interesting choice for another top tier superhero to be less powerful than Notsuperman but have less scruples and not hesitate to throw a semi on top of you just because you're in front of a schoolbus.
anyway, my people will call your people, thx.
I actually thought a lot about how MHYTRMG would work, after the initial mention on the SR2 video.
The tone would be like in SR2, in which you are in a colorful bizarre cartoon world where everything is a degree of magnitude above what it shoulde be, but gameplay would be like Prototype, in which you'd use your own mode of transportation and attack rather than relying on mundane vehicles and weapons. There'd probably be some sort of skill tree so you had to choose whether you had a death ray and an evilmobile or a jetpack and a freeze ray.
The story progression would work like SR2, you'd have to commit 'acts of villainy' to gain infamy and proceed through the story. But the 'story' would be clearly the backdrop; the meat of the game would be the 'acts of villany'. You could be dumb and just act like your cousin when he comes over to play GTA and just kill a bunch of people, or you could be a cool Lex Luthor creature and plan extensive heists while trying to mantain a dignified public persona. Either would count. There would be very few story events, maybe four or five in the whole game, and many acts of villainy, so you'd spend the whole game working on those.
There would be wanted stars, just like in a GTA game, and in a similar way. One star, police; two star, heavy police (all points bulletin); three stars, specialized SWAT like team; four, army/national guard/whatever. At five stars, things start to get different: you'd get one of several teams specialized in taking out supervillains. They're human, but they're specially trained to deal with people like you. They use wildly different tactics and the one that manages to defeat you the most often will be called with more frequency when you reach that level.
The sixth star is a superhero, of course. Superheroes would be an event in their own, with the game freezing to show BANGLE BANNER! arriving on the scene. Superheroes would have 'wanted' stars on their own. At first you'd only fight lame superheroes that were just super strong/skilled people in bright costumes, but as you defeated them more dangerous heroes appeared. At the highest tier there would only be two or three superheroes, one of whom would be a Superman expy who would be able to kick your ass very, very quickly. An interesting choice for another top tier superhero to be less powerful than Notsuperman but have less scruples and not hesitate to throw a semi on top of you just because you're in front of a schoolbus.
anyway, my people will call your people, thx.