Extra Punctuation: The Sandbox Killed Batman

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Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiHr7qLxOvU&ob=av2e

I think that pretty much summarizes Yahtzee's thoughts.


Speaking for myself I kind of liked the Arkham City approach to things, because to be honest that is actually more the essence of Batman, than any of the deep, personal stuff that sold Arkham Asylum. Comic stories similar to the events of the first video game stand out because they are unusual. A lot of Batman's time is actually spent lurking around the city, looking for problems to stop. It's important to also note that Batman already knows his rogues gallery inside and out, so a lot of "getting to know you" stuff isn't really nessicary except for the sake of the occasional new reader. Really "Arkham Asylum" was a good way to start off a video game series because it helped fill in the details so they won't have to be expanded on to the same extent in future games.

Really, Arkham City reminded me a lot of the whole "No Man's Land" scenario from the comics, where Batman had to run around and take down various gangs run by members of his rogues gallery throughout the city to try and restore order... without any of the gradual build up that explained No Man's Land and how the city wound up like that for a time. Really the whole situation in Arkham City is preposterous even for Batman, since I couldn't see a part of the city being cordoned off like that for those purposes, or Bruce Wayne and other critics being rounded up and tossed into it that way. Maybe in China, but not in the US, even the US of the DC comics universe.

Of course then again No Man's Land also had a sort of "twist" ending where the final big bad was Lex Luthor (a superman Villain) who had been setting everything up, which is part of what made it work, espcially seeing as Lex was aiming for the White House at that point (if I remember), and was popular enough to get himself elected president. The overall DC universe had done enough gradual lead in to Lex having enough pull to get a city declared a national disaster area.

The bottom line is that I liked the way they did Arkham City just fine. Honestly if anything I'd like to see some of Batman's allies have a bigger role than just his adversaries. The interplay within the so called "Bat-Family" is one of the things that holds the concept together, especially nowadays, and charracterizes Batman as being more than just a face punching machine...


I will say that a sandbox super villain game would be kind of fun, and I hope they do make a decent one some day. I think they tried something similar with "Prototype" and "Infamous" but neither really got the vibe right. Saint's Row 2 actually made me feel like more of a super villain, even without powers, than either of the other games.
 

Veylon

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Aug 15, 2008
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I think a key mechanic that gets overlooked her is the planning. Villains don't just bust into the bank and take stuff, they use the opportunity to drag in a freeze ray, a portable cloaking device, and keep their helicopter on standby to taunt the police via megaphone. There ought to be some kind of pre-mission map where you hand out orders to your minions and choose equipment. Of course, you shouldn't have to do this; it should also be open to simply driving your thematically-appropriate tank through the foyer.

Also, research shouldn't merely be "pick item X and invest Y points", but require you to take the thing in question out and use it in prototype form before it's well and truly researched. Maybe you also have to steal components from science labs, art museums, and other supervillains.
 

dnose

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Nov 5, 2009
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I've never disagreed with Yahtzee more. I've been playing Batman: Arkham City every day since the day it came out and I've had more fun with it than I have had with a game in a very long time. I feel more like Batman than any other video game makes me feel like its protagonist. I will admit to being a huge Batman fan so I'm sure that my judgement is a bit clouded by this fact. But the bottom line is that I am having fun with the game. I love that it is a sandbox, I love flying and grappling my way around the city and I'm thoroughly enjoying the story and the small interactions with all of the other villains incarcerated in Arkham City. I understand Yahtzee's gripes with the game but I completely disagree.

Catwoman, on the other hand, was a pain in the ass to get from Point A to Point B. I laughed my ass off at the part of the video review where Catwoman slams into the side of a building because it is very true.
 

beleester

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Feb 22, 2011
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His comment that the hero always needs to defeat the villain is interesting. Normally, the player expects that anything they face can be killed eventually, but we can't have that in a traditional comic-book villain. However, why should they even bother building deathtraps and gathering hordes of minions if they know that the hero will just rip through their defenses like a human Cuisinart?

My idea is that the villain just needs to keep the villain busy until they can escape. Batman will eventually punch out any number of minions, evade any number of gunmen, and deploy enough Bat-gadgets to bypass any trap. However, while he's busy with that, you and your lieutenants are hard at work in your inner sanctum, shredding the evidence, hiding the death rays, arranging your next hideout, and taking out a gigantic insurance policy on your soon-to-be-demolished lair. So when Batman finally kicks down the door, you can give him a dramatic one-liner, hop into the getaway car, and escape to plot another day.

By making the hero truly unstoppable, you prevent players from derailing your plot by killing him off early or just turtling up with an impenetrable wall of deathtraps. So gameplay would be about getting the most out of your limited resources (time, money, minions). Perhaps, to make minions more expendable, make it really difficult to transfer them between hideouts.

I'm not sure what the end goal would be, though. If you can't defeat the hero or complete a world-changing villanous scheme, what can you do to win? Perhaps you could go semi-legit, like the opening of Saints Row 3, where you have so much wealth and power that people just have to deal with the occasional act of villainy. Or perhaps you get official support (what if the government wants to use Scarecrow's fear gas?) Perhaps the ultimate victory would be Joker Immunity - you're so popular and marketable and stylish that you can never be defeated for good.
 

TheUnbeholden

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Dec 13, 2007
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The reason that makes the Batman movies so great and the Batman games isn't because they are focused on Batman.. but because the interesting relationship between batman and the villians. Of course on a individual basis the villians are cooler/more interesting/big ideas and big plans, but the dichotomy between them is what makes it interesting as well as the conflict/rivalry that arises from it.

The are the 2 peas of the pod, not the one big pea and the other flimsy pea that wastes space.
So I think for once I can actually disagree with Yahtzee on one note, but (yet again) I have to agree with everything else. I would totally play a super villian sandbox game.