F2P, Pay To Skip, Microtransanction

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Siyano_v1legacy

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*Sigh* (English is not my native so I guess sorry for the grammar and typos)
I feel sad, the gaming now is totally sick, intoxicated with this "malpractice", because well, greediness.
After big debate on the forum of Hearthstone and the most recent Magic the Gathering Arena. I wanted to come on neutral ground and tell my opinion.
Loot box, microtransaction for skin or simple pay to skip (experience potion, more stash, etc..) is a bad thing.

Loot box (or booster pack for CCG), you can't directly buy what you want or the price for individual items is ridiculously overprice, some stuff are arbitrarily more rare for some reason, and often, loot boxes are filled with a lot of "useless" junk that barely few people care (like spray, icon or even flag in Heroes of the Storm for example). Just so you think the rare stuff is more interesting (gambling mechanic).
Like in HotS if you buy one character with gems it's like 5$, I have seen some skin with 20$ attached to it, wtf?

Micro for skin, well I think this one is hard, and some psychology and philosophy may get into, but for me, paying for a skin can give you an advantage that some other players don't have. Not everyone as the same kind of vision, if you have a different skin than the "normal one" you may blend better or may be harder to see for some players.
And why back then in a game like says Quake 3 arena, everyone had access to the 4 or 5 pages of 16 skins, now we have to buy them individually?

And the last one, which for me is the worst of all, the Pay to Skip.
No matter the form it takes, I despise all kind of P2Skip a game can offer, even worst when it's already a P2Play like WoW where you can pay 60$ to have a max level character.
Because of if the method of P2Skip exist it means the original game and the method to attain a certain aspect of game has been artificially slowed down, either by time gate, loot box randomness, restriction of daily quest or similar.
I just rage, because no matter what, paying for skipping is NEVER a good thing, because, all you do, is throwing money out of the window (in a way). You don't give money to buy more content, or to have access to thing you couldn't before, you pay to access them faster, because you made them slower so I could lose my patience and pay you to skip ahead.

Let now talk about the fact of paying for a virtual currencies, I think I have never seen a game that offers good well rounded virtual currencies, its always Pay 500 gems for 5$, 1100 gems for 10$ and such, but in the shop, almost no items cost exactly 500 or 1100, they have cost like 750 or 1300, so you are stuck with a portion of the amount you paid in virtual currency that you can't spend. So instead of paying says 7,50$ for an item, you paid 10$, because they made this artificially, again, not having something at 2,50$ so you gave them more than you would have.

So people say, let other people do what they want with their money, but the problem is, if you buy the skin at 5$ or the pay to get more boosters in Hearthstone, you say to the design that its correct to do it and thus making my own enjoyment of the game of not having P2skip worst. So no, you do have an indirect impact on me.

Now I am sad because more and more games are getting through this route of giving more and more granular content and trying to squeeze from us more money by using "morally grey" mechanics and design choices like more grindy games and gambling mechanic.

Honourable mentions to basically 99% of the mobile games which either use one or a lot of these practices.
 

Chimpzy_v1legacy

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Jun 21, 2009
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Any game that does any of that scummy stuff? It doesn't get my money. I don't buy it. I don't play it. It gets nothing from me. No compromises. If that means 'missing out', so be it. Plenty of other fish in the sea that don't pull any crap. They can get my money instead.

And if the time comes that the entire industry is a scumbag?

I find a better hobby.
 

Saelune

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Why pay to not play a game? It makes no sense.
 

Satinavian

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I avoid all games with pay-to skip-mechanics.

I don't mind paying for skins at all.

I don't have a problem paying for DLCs.

I am sceptical about all games with loot boxes. I don't like them. But there are examples where i can tolerate them. Most games that have them get a pass though, some games that have them i do play without buying any. And once in a blue moon i might buy some just to support a game i really like.

But i never would play a game with lootboxes that would be not fun without buying a single one of them.

95%+ of games i play don't have lootboxes anyway. It is not really a trend in most genres i like.

Honourable mentions to basically 99% of the mobile games which either use one or a lot of these practices.
Oh yes. Tried mobile gaming about two months total, then never visited it again. There seems to be pretty much nothing worthwile at all there.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Microtransactions, Microtransactions, Microtransactions.

DLC, DLC, DLC.

Lootboxes, Lootboxes, Lootboxes.

Mobile, Mobile, Mobile.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.

Is that all we talk about in gaming now? I am already bombarded by constant youtube videos about shit like this from Heelsvsbabyface, YongYea, Downward Thrust, The Quartering, and Cleanprincegaming because they thrive on these repetitive sensationalist topics like the fucking parasites that they are all in some poorly realized method of trying to make gaming "better" then it is now.

Can we talk about something else please, like how's the story in Assassin's Creed Odyssesy, or how Dragon Ball finally got a worthy Fighting Game? Or how 2019 is shaping up to be a decent year of cool and exciting upcoming games?
 

Lufia Erim

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Samtemdo8 said:
Microtransactions, Microtransactions, Microtransactions.

DLC, DLC, DLC.

Lootboxes, Lootboxes, Lootboxes.

Mobile, Mobile, Mobile.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.

Is that all we talk about in gaming now? I am already bombarded by constant youtube videos about shit like this from Heelsvsbabyface, YongYea, Downward Thrust, The Quartering, and Cleanprincegaming because they thrive on these repetitive sensationalist topics like the fucking parasites that they are all in some poorly realized method of trying to make gaming "better" then it is now.

Can we talk about something else please, like how's the story in Assassin's Creed Odyssesy, or how Dragon Ball finally got a worthy Fighting Game? Or how 2019 is shaping up to be a decent year of cool and exciting upcoming games?
No we can't. Because, like it or not, it affects the entire industry and it is important to spread information. Microtransactions are making more money that the games they are implemented in.

The practices are getting worst and more subtle. Microtransactions are the norm now. We expect microtransactions in our games now. Worst than that, the future generation of gamers don't know an industry without microtransactions.

People like to say " oh Publishers are shortsighted" But i argue that they are playing the long game. They are banking on taking advantage of the newcomers that never knew anything else.

Not talking, discussing, or pointing these things out is a massive disservice to the industry.
 
Sep 24, 2008
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Samtemdo8 said:
Microtransactions, Microtransactions, Microtransactions.

DLC, DLC, DLC.

Lootboxes, Lootboxes, Lootboxes.

Mobile, Mobile, Mobile.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.

Is that all we talk about in gaming now? I am already bombarded by constant youtube videos about shit like this from Heelsvsbabyface, YongYea, Downward Thrust, The Quartering, and Cleanprincegaming because they thrive on these repetitive sensationalist topics like the fucking parasites that they are all in some poorly realized method of trying to make gaming "better" then it is now.

Can we talk about something else please, like how's the story in Assassin's Creed Odyssesy, or how Dragon Ball finally got a worthy Fighting Game? Or how 2019 is shaping up to be a decent year of cool and exciting upcoming games?
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here or not. How's the story of Assassin's Creed Odyssey? Incomplete. Sold to us in DLC packs [https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2018/11/28/assassins-creed-odysseys-first-dlc-pack-gets-a-new-trailer-and-a-release-date/#ea6527ef890f] to get every part of it. Dragon Ball Fighterz is a good fighting game (debatable), and we're entering in season 2 of DLC fighters [https://www.econotimes.com/Dragon-Ball-FighterZ-Season-2-Release-Date-Roster-Bigger-Lineup-Reportedly-Has-10-Characters-2018-Launch-Unlikely-1448009] soon. Even in your other topics, DLC, Microtransactions, and the rest play heavily in them.

Understand, I mean no disrespect when I say this. But I must ask you; Why are you coming into a discussion that people want to have just to say "I'm SICK of this discussion!!"? Why not ignore it? Why not start a conversation of a subject you'd find interesting?

I mean, there are plenty of conversations on this forum that I don't care anything about or I'm sick of seeing. You will not see me posting in those threads. If the subject bores you, let it bore you. But what purpose does it serve to interrupt others?
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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I don't see microtransactions as any different to the arcades of ye-olde where you put money in every time you died so you'd play more. It's kinda like a skill reward, the better you get at a game, the less money you have to spend. Some people (a whole damn lot, apparently) are just terrible enough that they can't get through games without those "pay to skip" mechanics where you give them money for free experience points or overpowered gear and so on. Companies figured this so they exploit it to the best effect and I say let them because these people only have themselves to blame. As long as you don't use it yourself there's no issue.


Now, there are some notorious examples where a game will make itself artificially harder in a cheap way in order to compel you to spend money, and those cases need to be pointed out and decried to high heaven I agree, but conflating those situations to the average game where 90% of the playerbase doesn't touch the microtransactions cause they can do just fine without them dilutes the weight of your argument. You wanna look at microtransactions as something that mainly affect normie nongamers who suck at most games and need to artificially pump their ego through their wallet. They're not something aimed at us.


As for the competitive advantage granted to you by a different skin, in most cases the actual official tournaments disallow this from occurring so as a competitive fighting game player I see no issues with it. You always have a "tourney standard outfit" and a "tourney standard stage" in these things to prevent just that unfair advantage you suggest.


As for card games like HS or my favorite Shadowverse, even if the booster packs give you useless cards, you can always turn them to dust/vials and use those to create the cards you want, so you should just change your thinking and start considering boosters as not containing cards but rather as containing card-creating-resources and an occasional good card as a bonus every now and then.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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Samtemdo8 said:
Microtransactions, Microtransactions, Microtransactions.

DLC, DLC, DLC.

Lootboxes, Lootboxes, Lootboxes.

Mobile, Mobile, Mobile.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.

Is that all we talk about in gaming now? I am already bombarded by constant youtube videos about shit like this from Heelsvsbabyface, YongYea, Downward Thrust, The Quartering, and Cleanprincegaming because they thrive on these repetitive sensationalist topics like the fucking parasites that they are all in some poorly realized method of trying to make gaming "better" then it is now.

Can we talk about something else please, like how's the story in Assassin's Creed Odyssesy, or how Dragon Ball finally got a worthy Fighting Game? Or how 2019 is shaping up to be a decent year of cool and exciting upcoming games?
I will say I shamelessly spent 200 in mobile game instead of the dull stuff for sale just recently.
 

Satinavian

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Samtemdo8 said:
Can we talk about something else please, like how's the story in Assassin's Creed Odyssesy, or how Dragon Ball finally got a worthy Fighting Game?
Sounds boring. Would sooner discuss how Pathfinder : Kingmaker matches the tabletop or why infnity engine games are still a thing or if the Warhammer Pirate Coast DLC is good or a tad too silly over the top. Or if it was a good idea for Europa Universalis to revisit Iberia again.

The reason lockboxes, DLCs and microtransactions are popular topics is because they are in a lot of games and thus most forumites have an oppinion about them. If you actually discuss games, you only get the fraction of posters to write anything who own the game or are at least interested in it. This is why those topics always get so few answers.
 

Hades

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Mar 8, 2013
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Samtemdo8 said:
Microtransactions, Microtransactions, Microtransactions.

DLC, DLC, DLC.

Lootboxes, Lootboxes, Lootboxes.

Mobile, Mobile, Mobile.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.

Is that all we talk about in gaming now? I am already bombarded by constant youtube videos about shit like this from Heelsvsbabyface, YongYea, Downward Thrust, The Quartering, and Cleanprincegaming because they thrive on these repetitive sensationalist topics like the fucking parasites that they are all in some poorly realized method of trying to make gaming "better" then it is now.

Can we talk about something else please, like how's the story in Assassin's Creed Odyssesy, or how Dragon Ball finally got a worthy Fighting Game? Or how 2019 is shaping up to be a decent year of cool and exciting upcoming games?
No, no we really can't and that's what everyone is angry about. Things like lootboxes, dlc and microtransactions actively intrude on good game design so the chance of us getting good stories and fighting games are decreased by virtue of their excessive effect on the industry.

Can we really talk about the ending of Shadows of War when that ending is practically impossible to get without spending money on Lootboxes? Can we even discuss the ending of Asura's Wrath in its own right when it was sold separately from the game? Can we discuss Bazblue as a fighting game if its creators lock half the roster behind DLc?

We really can't because these practices devalue the game as a whole and letting them go unchallenged sets some very nasty precedents. Maybe the games you're into don't suffer from those problems but if these practices become normalized then the sequels to these game very well might end up just as bad.

We simply don't have the luxury to view the Lootbox controversy as separate from any game that deals in them.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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ObsidianJones said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Microtransactions, Microtransactions, Microtransactions.

DLC, DLC, DLC.

Lootboxes, Lootboxes, Lootboxes.

Mobile, Mobile, Mobile.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.

Is that all we talk about in gaming now? I am already bombarded by constant youtube videos about shit like this from Heelsvsbabyface, YongYea, Downward Thrust, The Quartering, and Cleanprincegaming because they thrive on these repetitive sensationalist topics like the fucking parasites that they are all in some poorly realized method of trying to make gaming "better" then it is now.

Can we talk about something else please, like how's the story in Assassin's Creed Odyssesy, or how Dragon Ball finally got a worthy Fighting Game? Or how 2019 is shaping up to be a decent year of cool and exciting upcoming games?
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here or not. How's the story of Assassin's Creed Odyssey? Incomplete. Sold to us in DLC packs [https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2018/11/28/assassins-creed-odysseys-first-dlc-pack-gets-a-new-trailer-and-a-release-date/#ea6527ef890f] to get every part of it. Dragon Ball Fighterz is a good fighting game (debatable), and we're entering in season 2 of DLC fighters [https://www.econotimes.com/Dragon-Ball-FighterZ-Season-2-Release-Date-Roster-Bigger-Lineup-Reportedly-Has-10-Characters-2018-Launch-Unlikely-1448009] soon. Even in your other topics, DLC, Microtransactions, and the rest play heavily in them.

Understand, I mean no disrespect when I say this. But I must ask you; Why are you coming into a discussion that people want to have just to say "I'm SICK of this discussion!!"? Why not ignore it? Why not start a conversation of a subject you'd find interesting?

I mean, there are plenty of conversations on this forum that I don't care anything about or I'm sick of seeing. You will not see me posting in those threads. If the subject bores you, let it bore you. But what purpose does it serve to interrupt others?
I just felt I had to say something, because I have been going through this with gaming for YEARS now and so far despite every gamer who grew up in the olden days like me who thinks gaming was better then it is now. What has changed in the last 10 years that publishers/developers stopped doing anti-consumer practices?
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Jun 5, 2013
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Saelune said:
Why pay to not play a game? It makes no sense.
The only thing I can think of is when Devs purposefully make the game boring and grindy, so you're either bored for the next 20hours, or spend $1 on a level upgrade.

Its shit for sure, but that's the only time I can think of paying to not play. But a game like that would be better off not played at all, so fuck them.
 

runic knight

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I hate all of those things. Not just because they are clear acts of greed in games that should have just been sold instead, but because they are often so intrinsically tied into the game itself, it forces it to change to encourage their sale. DLC sections off story and plot in a lot of bigger games. Random boxes make it harder to get items inside anywhere else. The artificial difficulty and grind mentioned before. These fundamentally change the base game itself, if not outright built around it like skinner boxes.

It is sad that gaming has embraced these ideas, I feel the whole is far poorer for them.
 

Catnip1024

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It depends how it's done, though. DLC if done properly aids the continued evolution of a game (look at Paradox games where even the vanilla game gets some of the update features, for instance).
ObsidianJones said:
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here or not. How's the story of Assassin's Creed Odyssey? Incomplete. Sold to us in DLC packs [https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2018/11/28/assassins-creed-odysseys-first-dlc-pack-gets-a-new-trailer-and-a-release-date/#ea6527ef890f] to get every part of it. Dragon Ball Fighterz is a good fighting game (debatable), and we're entering in season 2 of DLC fighters [https://www.econotimes.com/Dragon-Ball-FighterZ-Season-2-Release-Date-Roster-Bigger-Lineup-Reportedly-Has-10-Characters-2018-Launch-Unlikely-1448009] soon. Even in your other topics, DLC, Microtransactions, and the rest play heavily in them.
I don't know about the DB game, are these entirely new fighters with new styles or just reskinnings? Because completely new fighters I could see legitimately justified as costing money - it costs development time.

My problem is that the DLC isn't being used in the right places. It should be an annual update to sporting rosters in sports games. Instead you get a new game every year where features have been arbitrarily messed around with. Who wouldn't rather just pay a tenner for an update to the previous, stable version of the game?

On the other stuff, if it's cosmetic, who cares? If it impacts competition in a multiplayer game, don't play the game. If it cuts out gameplay, more fool you for robbing yourself.
 
Sep 24, 2008
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Samtemdo8 said:
I just felt I had to say something, because I have been going through this with gaming for YEARS now and so far despite every gamer who grew up in the olden days like me who thinks gaming was better then it is now. What has changed in the last 10 years that publishers/developers stopped doing anti-consumer practices?
I get you. Thank you for clarifying.

But, you have to understand some people's point. I've been gaming since the 80's. Yeah, I'm that old.

I've gone from seeing everything placed into the video game and you just have to have the tenacity and wit to unlock it, to the same content that was once finished now being planned, worked on, and parceled out to make a buck. And I completely mean that. Red Dots [https://screenrant.com/call-duty-black-ops-crosshair-dot-microtransaction/] for sights are now a buck. Extra Save Slots [https://www.polygon.com/2018/2/23/17042242/metal-gear-survive-sv-coins-boosts-character-save-slots-micotransactions-konami] are ten dollars. True Ending DLCs [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFShJG7eOhA] (spoilers, of course).

We're playing full price for shells. I don't like that. That's why I wait for game of the year editions.

Don't get me wrong. I completely enjoy what games are today in terms of scope. It's been a ride to see how it has involved from Colecovision to now. But I'm the kind of person who can not eat until all of dinner is ready. Doesn't matter if the Garlic Bread will be ready in 2 minutes and my plate is in front of me. I will nuke the food to be hot in tandem with my Bread.

Some people are built that way. As some people are built not to care.

Catnip1024 said:
It depends how it's done, though. DLC if done properly aids the continued evolution of a game (look at Paradox games where even the vanilla game gets some of the update features, for instance).
ObsidianJones said:
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here or not. How's the story of Assassin's Creed Odyssey? Incomplete. Sold to us in DLC packs [https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2018/11/28/assassins-creed-odysseys-first-dlc-pack-gets-a-new-trailer-and-a-release-date/#ea6527ef890f] to get every part of it. Dragon Ball Fighterz is a good fighting game (debatable), and we're entering in season 2 of DLC fighters [https://www.econotimes.com/Dragon-Ball-FighterZ-Season-2-Release-Date-Roster-Bigger-Lineup-Reportedly-Has-10-Characters-2018-Launch-Unlikely-1448009] soon. Even in your other topics, DLC, Microtransactions, and the rest play heavily in them.
I don't know about the DB game, are these entirely new fighters with new styles or just reskinnings? Because completely new fighters I could see legitimately justified as costing money - it costs development time.

My problem is that the DLC isn't being used in the right places. It should be an annual update to sporting rosters in sports games. Instead you get a new game every year where features have been arbitrarily messed around with. Who wouldn't rather just pay a tenner for an update to the previous, stable version of the game?

On the other stuff, if it's cosmetic, who cares? If it impacts competition in a multiplayer game, don't play the game. If it cuts out gameplay, more fool you for robbing yourself.
In terms of Dragon Ball, I don't believe DLC has been used in the right way. Nor the character roster itself. There are 32 characters in the game of the last dlc rounds. And of those characters slots, there are Vegito, Goku Black, Base Form Goku, SS Goku, SS Vegita, Base form Vegita, Blue Vegita, Blue Goku. Also known as 25% of the cast taken up by essentially two characters.

In a game where meter comes like crazy, to waste character slots on powered up version of one character is wrong. It's simply wrong. You can't use 3 bars of meter to actually turn into SS Goku or Vegita? In a game where you have three characters at once, We couldn't get to a full 7 meters, do a input, and actually fuse them for the duration of the fight?

Those spots could have gone to anyone else in Dragon Ball's nearly 30 year anniversary. Any of the Dragons (I know no one speaks of GT, but the dragons were cool), Turles, Zangya, Lord Slug, Kami, Hell let's just say Namekians. But if a third of all DLC is Goku and Vegita again (Base Form Goku, Base Form Vegita, and Vegito), it's a bad design to me.
 

Chewster

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Apr 24, 2008
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This is why I don't buy games when they are new. A) You can spend less and B) they tend to be more complete after going on sale.

Why spend sixty - seventy bones for half complete garbage when you can get the Super Ultra Awesome Complete Edition for like half of that a year later?
 

Marik2

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Chewster said:
This is why I don't buy games when they are new. A) You can spend less and B) they tend to be more complete after going on sale.

Why spend sixty - seventy bones for half complete garbage when you can get the Super Ultra Awesome Complete Edition for like half of that a year later?
This. By that time, most of the glitches are ironed out and I get more bang for my buck.
 

Catnip1024

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ObsidianJones said:
In terms of Dragon Ball, I don't believe DLC has been used in the right way. Nor the character roster itself. There are 32 characters in the game of the last dlc rounds. And of those characters slots, there are Vegito, Goku Black, Base Form Goku, SS Goku, SS Vegita, Base form Vegita, Blue Vegita, Blue Goku. Also known as 25% of the cast taken up by essentially two characters.

In a game where meter comes like crazy, to waste character slots on powered up version of one character is wrong. It's simply wrong. You can't use 3 bars of meter to actually turn into SS Goku or Vegita? In a game where you have three characters at once, We couldn't get to a full 7 meters, do a input, and actually fuse them for the duration of the fight?

Those spots could have gone to anyone else in Dragon Ball's nearly 30 year anniversary. Any of the Dragons (I know no one speaks of GT, but the dragons were cool), Turles, Zangya, Lord Slug, Kami, Hell let's just say Namekians. But if a third of all DLC is Goku and Vegita again (Base Form Goku, Base Form Vegita, and Vegito), it's a bad design to me.
Okay, that does sound crazy.