F2P, Pay To Skip, Microtransanction
- Thread starter Siyano_v1legacy
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If those arcades came with barely 1/4 of the game programmed into the cabinet, with the technician promising to come around early next week to add the rest, but only if the cabinet has swallowed enough pennies by then to make the trip worthwhile, then yeah, I guess you could say it's pretty similar.Dreiko said:
Hades said:
Pretty much this ^ I'll be only too happy to shut up about it when y'know... it's done with its efforts to fuck over the entire industry.Lufia Erim said:
Literally not true. Microtransactions and loot boxes are bad for sure but exaggerating the problem is counter-productive, I played Shadows of War and got to the real ending without spending a dime and without any problems at all, never once did I feel like I had to buy lootboxes.Hades said:
ObsidianJones said:
Ok so there's a lot wrong in this post and this is kind of my wheel-house so I'll explain.
First of all, about the characters. This game is made by Arc system works (arcsys) and is using their guilty gear xrd graphics style. That means that each character's being shaded frame by frame like a 2d sprite of yesteryear was, in a 3d plane. Due to the time intensity of such a method, you can't do costumes cause you'd have to redo the work, nor can you do different forms cause again all the lighting of the auras and shading of the hair and so on would need redoing, hence, if you DO want to do a different form, a way of not making all that work (takes about 3 months per char) go to waste is by imbuing the new form with unique mechanics that allow them to be a whole, whole lot more than a simple skin.
Goku, SSJ Goku and Goku Blue are all completely unique chars who do completely different things gameplay-wise who you'd use for completely different reasons within a team and who you can never just interchange in a transformation form and have any sort of team cohesion.
You're like a lot of people who don't follow arcsys fighters trapped in the budokai tenkaichi/raging blast/xenoverse paradigm where you had a handful of gameplay "templates" that were shared by dozens of chars in the oversized rosters these games had. FighterZ is not that game. A ton of work and care goes into each char, even if they are outwardly just "another version".
The game was released with every char done by then available. Chars as basic as Tenshinhan were not done about a month or two before release, since they showed trailers of them with half-done animations. All of the dlc chars were being worked on after the game was already released. As for the pricing, due to the workload, arcsys chars in games like blazblue or persona arena or guilty gear range from 5-7 bucks per char historically. Now, fighterz is a team game so each unique char is less deep than those of a single char fighter, but even with that context the pricing of the dlc chars is a bargain.
Now, there is a valid argument to make about just delaying the game until it was all done and then releasing it, and I am sympathetic to it, but Bandai made a decision that the hype for the game was too much and it'd make more sense to release it before it cooled down. With fighterz being one of the best selling games of the year (saw it in a top 10) and by far the best selling arcsys fighter ever by an order of magnitude, I can not in good conscience fault their choice.
Finally, as for using meter to transform, that is just a waste of meter. Oftentimes, the lower form of a character is MILES better. Especially Goku Blue is much weaker than SSJ Goku (he's one of the weakest chars in the game) and plays nothing like him (Blue is a mixup heavy point char that desperately needs assists to keep himself safe while SSJ Goku is primarily an assist heavy anchor who can do wonders if you give him lots of meter). Both SSJ Goku and Vegeta are used primarily for their excellent assists. SSJ Vegeta's has been the best in the game for so long that it has been nerfed multiple times and is still exceedingly strong, it caused him to be the most used char single-handedly. To say that anyone would ever want to transform SSJ Vegeta into Vegeta blue (and at a cost of meter, no less!) is to simply not comprehend how the game plays. Also, the meter goes up to 7 because the only way to get consistent hard knockdown from which you can apply okizeme is to use the 3-meter-supers (unless you're android 16), since otherwise you can just tech upwards and avoid the high low meaty mixup, so the meter cap being high is deceptive since you need to spend just as much meter as the game gives you to keep going.
Fusions are similarly balanced to be just another char in this environment so if you were to fuse two chars in active combat what you'd be doing is basically paying meter to kill one of your team members and being forced to just have 1 assist with the fused char. Not a smart move.
The multiple forms also allows you to use the unique gameplay of all forms of a char in a single team. If the only way to access a higher form was to transform, you'd never be able to apply the approaches doable by a Goku Blue being covered by a SSJ Goku's assist and so on. You'd be sacrificing a lot of mechanical depth for no reason.
As for GT, DBsuper has retconned it out of existence basically.
And if you managed to read this far, wow, you must really love dbfz you nerd, here's something to watch as a thank you gift form yours truly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFviN53PoWs
(we still can't post youtube vids it seems so link will have to do)
Wrong would imply that disliking the Character Roster or the way they implemented the DLC because of this had an objective right or wrong answer. It does not.Dreiko said:
As a player of the game, I understand that the movesets are different. And that doesn't take away from my thought that I'd feel more connection with the characters if the movesets were encapsulated in one character instead of several. Tekken did this with Lee. Mortal Kombat did this with Shang Tsung where you would have to memorize all characters to use their powers. Killer Instinct now has Aria, who has three unique forms that you can switch to at any time during the fight. The Soul series, Tekken series, and Virtua Fighter (this needs to be brought back) all have characters who don't have move sets, but the game selects one randomly at the beginning of the game.
It is possible to have one character with multiple movesets. It's been perfected even before this game was thought up. Uni
I am my own person. You absolutely have no idea what games I like or don't like. My favorite fighting game of all time is Street Fighter 3rd Strike. That's followed up by Virtua Fighter 5 final round. Followed up by Guilty Gear X2 #Reload. And rounding it out with a current game by stating my love of Tekken 7.
The only Shoto I ever play is Ryu, but that was because he was my first character.
My mains are Ryu, Dudley, and Ibuki in SF 3rd Strike.
My mains in Tekken are Hwoarang, Josie, messing with Lars but I don't like the recovery frames on a lot of his moves, trying not to like Bob because of the sheer number of people who play him, and Master Raven.
Virtua Fighter has my love in Vanessa, but I play Brad and Lei Fei.
Guilty Gear has Jam, Potemkin, and Venom
I don't do similar characters.
I am a fighting game player and a fan of Dragon Ball. I'm a fighting game player who knows the lore of Dragon Ball and feels like there could have been more if it wasn't stuffed with Goku and Vegita. Mr. Satan, Popo, Kami, Dr Gero... Hell, Arale [http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Arale_Norimaki].
And to your point about wasting meter... I know you play Dragon Ball Fighterz. Meter comes at a drop of a hat. If your argument is that turning to SS Blue would be a waste of meter, do you know what would fix that? Balance changes. The decision was to make Blue fight that way. If they wanted to make it something to try to obtain, they can do that with Balance Changes
Even mentioning that Blue is considered to be one of the worst characters of the game cements my point for me. That makes him a waste of a character slot if you wouldn't even burn energy to become him. Why waste programming hours, character modeling, and once again, a slot if you were just going to design him that he wouldn't be used in competitive play?
The cool factor of "Oh, wow! Blue! I love Goku/Vegita Blue" quickly fades away when you get your hands on them and say "Whelp, he sucks. Never going to use him again".
That's the entire opposite of what these power level thresholds are supposed to be. The Milestone of reaching these power levels are supposed to be mind-blowing in terms of advantage. That makes Blue worse than a skin, because most people will never spend the time and energy getting good with a character that won't win them games, but you will throw on a skin because it looks cool.
Lastly, I disagree with your ideas of fusion. I give you Phoenix [http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultimate_Marvel_vs_Capcom_3/Phoenix] as the reason why. Whole teams were built around giving her enough meter to rise as Dark Phoenix. The pressure was on to make sure you got Phoenix into the battle and killed her before she reached max level meter. That brought excitement for players like me.
And choosing Raw power over number of players isn't anything new in fighting games. Look at Capcom vs. SNK [https://snk.fandom.com/wiki/Capcom_vs._SNK].
There are many ships in any sea, meaning there are many wheelhouses navigating the same waters. Your experience in fighting games doesn't trump my own. As your perception doesn't as well. If there's one central wrong statement between our exchange, that is the only true one.
ObsidianJones said:
Having a character with multiple movesets is something that makes sense in a 1v1 game. Something like Valkenhayn having his wolf form and his human form in Blazblue for example. In a team based game however, splitting the forms lets you pair them together and lets you pair the chars who may work with one of the movesets but not the other together with the forms that complement them too, it's basically an exponential increase in potential combinations afforded by the flexibility of picking and choosing the movesets that fit. Also the level of complexity of a character with multiple movesets is leagues and bounds beyond that of the typical character in a team based game. I think your preferred approach is fine in a vacuum but mismatched with the system of this game being a team one.
Being low tier doesn't make any character a waste of programming or anything remotely close to that. The reason you wouldn't transform SSJ Goku into Blue is not that he's just "better" but that if your team has SSJ Goku you're using him as an anchor/assist heavy char so the anchor turning to a point mid fight would mess up your composition and not help you in the least. Sure, you can just change how Blue plays and have that not happen, but would that outcome actually create more depth? Isn't it deeper to have them play completely differently and through that enhance the number of team permutations available as well as the sort of gameplay the game has to offer?
Something like Mystic Gohan covers the midcombat transformation archetype in a way that is cohesive in a 3v3 game through his unlock potential. It's a whole lot less heavy handed than Phoenix where she's just a glass canon that turns broken if you set her up. When Dark Phoenix happens either of 2 things will occur, she will get poked out of the air and massacared in 2 seconds or she will curbstomp you with unreactable mixups into absurd damage that you have to basically guess to not die to. Such gameplay isn't really interesting.
Finally, conflating lore power levels with competitive tiers is kind of a rookie move. I think it's more helpful to think of the higher level form as "different" and not necessarily "better" since the way these games are made takes into account balance and making chars fun to use more so than canon power levels. It might feel odd to have Krillin beating on Vegeto Blue but if you couldn't have that happen the game would be kind of a broken mess XD.
I just feel like a lot of people just don't know the consequence of paying to skip.
I don't want to blatantly yell that those people are stupid or can't do what they want with their money.
It's just that, in a free to play game where you either have to pay for "exp booster", time game or loot box style package with randomized items of progression (like cards in CCG and such).
By paying those just grant them to put more, simple as that.
Yes, some people don't want to wait X hours before getting something, but those waits have been artificially put there exactly for that.
Also, no matter how some free to play is generous or not by giving away stuff is kind of skewed and flawed to say they are "generous".
I have seen analogy that may give a good example but although may be wrong.
Let say I have a pack of 1000 sheets of paper that my company made, the regular price I decided to put is 1000$. Now I going to give away 100 of those sheets, can you really I'm generous because I gave away 100$ of stuff? No, because at the start the price of the object was blatantly skewed. So telling me you are giving me 20$ of free stuff when the price of the thing as nothing to relate as a "real" price, how can I say that you are generous?
So I just hope people will learn and not spend money on Pay 2 Skip, its clearly already the norm for 95% of the mobile games and getting really rampant to bleed on PC gaming.
I don't want to blatantly yell that those people are stupid or can't do what they want with their money.
It's just that, in a free to play game where you either have to pay for "exp booster", time game or loot box style package with randomized items of progression (like cards in CCG and such).
By paying those just grant them to put more, simple as that.
Yes, some people don't want to wait X hours before getting something, but those waits have been artificially put there exactly for that.
Also, no matter how some free to play is generous or not by giving away stuff is kind of skewed and flawed to say they are "generous".
I have seen analogy that may give a good example but although may be wrong.
Let say I have a pack of 1000 sheets of paper that my company made, the regular price I decided to put is 1000$. Now I going to give away 100 of those sheets, can you really I'm generous because I gave away 100$ of stuff? No, because at the start the price of the object was blatantly skewed. So telling me you are giving me 20$ of free stuff when the price of the thing as nothing to relate as a "real" price, how can I say that you are generous?
So I just hope people will learn and not spend money on Pay 2 Skip, its clearly already the norm for 95% of the mobile games and getting really rampant to bleed on PC gaming.
Imo, a game is generous if you can be f2p and be competitively viable against people who pay money to play. Not as much about how much you get but more if you feel you're missing out by not spending money or not.Siyano said:
Something like Shadowverse is a good example of a generous game.
I could deal with Pay to Win Mechanics if these games were broken pieces of crap. Need For Speed Payback is probably the worst game I played in 2017. The game had issues where it would freeze, crash and reset your car even if you didn't crash. I bypassed the lootbox system because the game was so broken I could duplicate the parts on to a different car. Which in some cases made it faster then it was suppose to be.
Loot Boxes:
Well, I doubt you'll find anyone really onboard with the paid form. Even the RNG drops that aren't designed to pull in cash usually attract a lot of ill will.
Skins:
They have gotten ludicrously over the top and expensive. Fallout76 for instance, to get the blue paint for armor requires buying 4 separate skins, which ends up costing more then the actual game itself has sold for. 15 and 20 dollar skins are becoming almost a norm, which is enough for a AAA expansion DLC, or an entire indie game. Thats not even considering that some of those skins are less then a hour doing some basic texture or outright recoloring.
PayToSkip:
Generally if there's need to skip something in your game, its probably a sign that you should redesign or remove the offending element. Which applies to PaytoSkip as much as it does to fast travel. Which does make Paytoskip something of the most inherently offensive of the three, since it means knowingly providing a poor experience (or outright intentionally making an experience poor).
Well, I doubt you'll find anyone really onboard with the paid form. Even the RNG drops that aren't designed to pull in cash usually attract a lot of ill will.
Skins:
They have gotten ludicrously over the top and expensive. Fallout76 for instance, to get the blue paint for armor requires buying 4 separate skins, which ends up costing more then the actual game itself has sold for. 15 and 20 dollar skins are becoming almost a norm, which is enough for a AAA expansion DLC, or an entire indie game. Thats not even considering that some of those skins are less then a hour doing some basic texture or outright recoloring.
PayToSkip:
Generally if there's need to skip something in your game, its probably a sign that you should redesign or remove the offending element. Which applies to PaytoSkip as much as it does to fast travel. Which does make Paytoskip something of the most inherently offensive of the three, since it means knowingly providing a poor experience (or outright intentionally making an experience poor).