"Failure is impossible for High School Students! (No Really!)" A news article about the grade system

[Aurora Firestorm]

That is still a matter of effort, not intelligence

No. Some people simply cannot learn as well as others. It has nothing to do with effort in their case.

Your argument would suggest we can all be heart surgeons, but we just don't try hard enough.

Why aren't you developing the cure for cancer or explaining black holes? Is it that you're not trying hard enough?

Sorry to pick on you.... but alas your elitist attitude on this subject rubs me the wrong way.

Case in point. My mom never finished high school as a teenager. And has been diagnosed with dyslexia. But here she is in her late 40's with a BA majoring in philosophy and extended minors in English and art history.

ALOT of it has to do with effort and commitment. Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant.

Okay. So go figure out the cure for cancer and AIDS.

Save a billion lives.

Then get started on traveling to Mars.

Intelligence, by and large, determines how fast and easily a person learns. It doesn't determine what they can learn, though. So yes, we could all be heart surgeons (or rather, we could all have the knowledge) if we "tried hard enough." But for plenty of people, it would basically take their whole lives to learn it, and they'd end up realizing that (for them) it's not worth the time, and they'll move on to something else.

Intelligence is just a measure of how quickly someone perceives and understands patterns, and how quickly that can absorb and use knowledge. It isn't a measure of knowledge, or how much knowledge a person can hold. Someone might have to take 11th grade four times, but they are capable of learning the content.

(In cases of severe mental retardation, the process is painfully slow, such that a person's lifespan might still not provide enough time to learn some of these things. There's also the language barrier, as they can have trouble understanding abstract concepts and groundwork that has to be laid first. But who's to say that, with infinite time and patience, you couldn't teach them the same stuff?)

That sounds more like IQ. IQ aims to be a measure of someone's learning ability. Not how smart you are, but how fast you pick things up, how swift and skilled an academic learner you are.

In the end...fine. In theory, unless you have a series of very strategic brain lesions that prevent declarative memory (i.e. hippocampus is effectively destroyed, like the case of the patient HM), then someday you will learn something that you keep trying at. Someday is a very, very broad term. Technically, you may be right, and I haven't learned enough neuroscience (nor, probably, has anyone) to know whether or not you're definitively correct. But if you are, it's only in theory -- in practice, taking 80 years to learn something is as good as not learning it at all, and taking 20 years to finish high school means that the system is not giving you what you need to learn, or that you should be investing your time elsewhere.

Past a certain point, is it worthwhile to teach a person something that they are far, far below average at learning? Probably not. Their time and abilities are better placed elsewhere, or if it is something they absolutely must learn, different approaches should be tried until they get the help they need.

So yeah, okay, I'll work with this. Maybe one day we could all be star scientists. Some of us when we're 80, 90 years old on the time scale. Some of us when we're 25. But it isn't a happy life, getting to be that 80-year-old science wonder. Maybe that poor guy who really wanted it so badly will be despaired for a little while, but surely he'll find something else he loves that has a reasonable time frame and will bring him happiness throughout his life, not just at the tail end of it.

Just because it's theoretically possible doesn't mean it should be the philosophy of our schools. That's why there are schools for the ones at either end of the spectrum -- those who are whiz kids at academics, and those who are in need of more help.

Man, I'm tl;dr-ing all over this thread. ><



dt61: Standardized tests are indeed total bull. They really just encourage teachers to teach to the test instead of teaching something they're supposed to. I'm sorry that you got screwed over by them. But I'm also of the opinion that exams in general are sucky ways to determine whether you learned something, because they don't resemble real life in any way. In real life, you get the Internet and other resources to help you recall and apply things to real problems. In an exam, you get a crunched block of time with no help and tons of anxiety to screw you over.

 

[Aurora Firestorm]

That is still a matter of effort, not intelligence

No. Some people simply cannot learn as well as others. It has nothing to do with effort in their case.

Your argument would suggest we can all be heart surgeons, but we just don't try hard enough.

Why aren't you developing the cure for cancer or explaining black holes? Is it that you're not trying hard enough?

Sorry to pick on you.... but alas your elitist attitude on this subject rubs me the wrong way.

Case in point. My mom never finished high school as a teenager. And has been diagnosed with dyslexia. But here she is in her late 40's with a BA majoring in philosophy and extended minors in English and art history.

ALOT of it has to do with effort and commitment. Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant.

Okay. So go figure out the cure for cancer and AIDS.

Save a billion lives.

Then get started on traveling to Mars.

Intelligence, by and large, determines how fast and easily a person learns. It doesn't determine what they can learn, though. So yes, we could all be heart surgeons (or rather, we could all have the knowledge) if we "tried hard enough." But for plenty of people, it would basically take their whole lives to learn it, and they'd end up realizing that (for them) it's not worth the time, and they'll move on to something else.

Intelligence is just a measure of how quickly someone perceives and understands patterns, and how quickly that can absorb and use knowledge. It isn't a measure of knowledge, or how much knowledge a person can hold. Someone might have to take 11th grade four times, but they are capable of learning the content.

(In cases of severe mental retardation, the process is painfully slow, such that a person's lifespan might still not provide enough time to learn some of these things. There's also the language barrier, as they can have trouble understanding abstract concepts and groundwork that has to be laid first. But who's to say that, with infinite time and patience, you couldn't teach them the same stuff?)

That sounds more like IQ. IQ aims to be a measure of someone's learning ability. Not how smart you are, but how fast you pick things up, how swift and skilled an academic learner you are.

In the end...fine. In theory, unless you have a series of very strategic brain lesions that prevent declarative memory (i.e. hippocampus is effectively destroyed, like the case of the patient HM), then someday you will learn something that you keep trying at. Someday is a very, very broad term. Technically, you may be right, and I haven't learned enough neuroscience (nor, probably, has anyone) to know whether or not you're definitively correct. But if you are, it's only in theory -- in practice, taking 80 years to learn something is as good as not learning it at all, and taking 20 years to finish high school means that the system is not giving you what you need to learn, or that you should be investing your time elsewhere.

Past a certain point, is it worthwhile to teach a person something that they are far, far below average at learning? Probably not. Their time and abilities are better placed elsewhere, or if it is something they absolutely must learn, different approaches should be tried until they get the help they need.

So yeah, okay, I'll work with this. Maybe one day we could all be star scientists. Some of us when we're 80, 90 years old on the time scale. Some of us when we're 25. But it isn't a happy life, getting to be that 80-year-old science wonder. Maybe that poor guy who really wanted it so badly will be despaired for a little while, but surely he'll find something else he loves that has a reasonable time frame and will bring him happiness throughout his life, not just at the tail end of it.

Just because it's theoretically possible doesn't mean it should be the philosophy of our mainstream schools. Sometimes people need to be told that they're struggling, and perhaps should seek some more help.

Man, I'm tl;dr-ing all over this thread. ><



dt61: Standardized tests are indeed total bull. They really just encourage teachers to teach to the test instead of teaching something they're supposed to. I'm sorry that you got screwed over by them. But I'm also of the opinion that exams in general are sucky ways to determine whether you learned something, because they don't resemble real life in any way. In real life, you get the Internet and other resources to help you recall and apply things to real problems. In an exam, you get a crunched block of time with no help and tons of anxiety to screw you over.

 

[Madara XIII]

Basically, this one school has decided to replace the "F" grade with the letter "I" for Incomplete. The reason why they did this is because they believe it can get students to "learn their lesson and catch up over the year."

This will prepare students for real life, where failure is impossible and if you dont do something by the deadline then you can always do it later, when convenient for you [/sarcasm]
The whole idea wont work, the idea just encourages procrastination and makes students think that life is very forgiving and easy. So when they graduate they will not be able to handle real life.

The thing I'm confused about is the "I" grade supposedly convincing students to catch up. Isn't that what the "F" grade was basically designed for? From what I see, all you're doing is changing the letter of the absolute worst grade you can get, how is that going to change anything?

Exactly, all it does is make the failure sound better, so that the parents dont have to admit that their "little angel" is failing school

Agreed! This is just some lazy haphazard way to make sure that the system doesn't "DISCOURAGE" students and so that schools get more money because of less students failing...

WTF PEOPLE!?

 

[Madara XIII]

I think it's a bunch of bull, and schools are trying to protect kids from the real world as much as possible, until it painfully smashes into their face and leaves them with a nosebleed.

Yep... I mean I'm just blown away by this. HOW can this work!?

 

[Madara XIII]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Americans are spoiled, fat, and dumb, I've been noticing this first hand all my life and can't wait to get the fuck out of dodge, so what else is new?
=P

GTFO while you still can man... We are falling apart over here!!

 

[Angryman101]

Who cares, high school is what you make of it. If you are an idiot, you don't go to college. If you're smart, you go to a good college and get a good job.

What motivates you?

Hahaha, what an adorably naive thing to say.
OP: What a bunch of horseshit. Seriously, they keep lowering the standards every fucking year, and we as a nation keep on getting less and less intelligent. I guess people are content being just smart enough to run the machinery and do the paperwork while not being intelligent enough to question why they're getting fucked by the system they cling to so desperately. Sigh.

I see that you've graduated from the George Carlin State University like myself here.
R.I.P. George

I love George Carlin, but I actually came up with the exact same conclusion as both him and another famous school of thought about education on my own. I proceeded to feel unoriginal :[.

 

[tijuanatim]

At my school we had the 'I' grade, but it was only for assignments that were actually incomplete. If anything remained 'I' for more than a week we were given a zero on the assignment and got an F.

 

[ViaticalTarsier]

This will only further exacerbate the increasing levels of depression and other mental illnesses in people between ages 22-30.

One thing Millennials can be reliably counted upon to do in life is fall apart at the first sign of adversity. It makes them impossible to manage, difficult to work with, and not worth a damn when they become "adults" (and I use the term loosely).

Our civilization's fucked. Soon as Gen-X gets old enough to retire America's gonna be a Third World country...it's already trending that way.

Ah you are so very much correct. There is so much talk in the business world about what to do with the millennials. They want huge salaries, great benefits, everything handed to them but they don't put forth the effort to even warrant them. Nobody has a "fighting" instinct anymore its just roll over and play dead at any sort of adverse situation. The only good thing is it really opens the doors for those that work hard and are willing to fight to succeed.

 

[Madara XIII]

This whole Grading system deserves one Giant

F

 

[lewism247]

Meh, grades are pointless until the last year of school anyway, and then only if you want to go do more study at a University.

If you are an idiot, you don't go to college. If you're smart, you go to a good college and get a good job.

Not always true. I got a great job and I never set foot in a Collage/Uni. I hated learning and study environments, so the last thing I wanted when I finished school was more school. There are many other ways to land a sweet job without more study.

Cool story bro, I don't remember saying anything about not being able to get a good job if you didn't go to university. However, if you had gone, maybe you would have comprehended it a little better.

That was a bit wankerish...

OP: You pretty much hit the nail on the head, it's gonna make the people getting F's (well I's) less prepared for actual life.

 

[The Rockerfly]

We didnt have F grades at my School we had E Grade instead

A - Top Students
B - Slightly above average
C - Average
D - Below Average
E - Your retarded

It still indicated the same thing that basically you fail at life and/or that particular class

I assume you made that "Your retarded" thing as a joke otherwise I will have to laugh at you

OT: oh dears. People need to realise when they fuck up, a great big F is a good way of saying it without hurting the students feelings. If they don't then they will become more naive and more unaware of how they have cocked up

 

[AstylahAthrys]

My old high school gave out "I"s for incomplete assigments, but when final grades came, any "I"s were changed to "F"s. Some kids just have it too easy these days... I worked by butt off in school and some kids who skipped and goofed off still graduated perfectly fine.

 

[Ensiferum]

It's just another example of our countries' (sorry, meaning the US) rising trend of rewarding failure. Kids also get trophies now just for losing so they don't "feel bad." The reason that failure exists is so that we can learn from our mistakes so that we understand the need to work hard in order to both improve ourselves and society as a whole.

And people wonder why the country is going down the toilet.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Who cares, high school is what you make of it. If you are an idiot, you don't go to college. If you're smart, you go to a good college and get a good job.

What motivates you?

While I understand the intention behind your post, I felt it a necessity to correct the misconception. College is not always a requirement to succeed and there are numerous examples of people who sought alternatives, such as specific courses in their field of intrigue or have benefited from an upbringing in that field wherein extensive school became a non-factor. Furthermore, high school is largely a waste of time with the present educational structure we have in place. Granted, I do concede to harboring a jaded opinion given my experience.

OT, I broke into laughter the moment I read this idiocy. Only in America would they conclude an arbitrary change of a letter would serve to benefit students. The notion that the educational system is embarrassingly pathetic and outdated continues to elude them. You know, my apologies. It is not only America because Canada will follow sooner or later. We do latch on to the US after all...

Incomplete means you did not do the assignment or complete it. Fail means you did it and failed. This is not difficult to comprehend people!

I would say my faith in humanity received another shot however it is so far into the negative I needn't bother.

 

[TheLaofKazi]

snip!

yes but, thats what learning IS. a chore.
okey, SOME things are naturally interesting to a person, and those things this person will gladly and automatically learn if given the means, the rest, is just so much more balony XD

also, linear system of grading, what, you mean like here in europa? 1-10grades with decimals 5.5 or higher =pass 10 for a perfect, 1 for a making it the bigest cockup in history

never did get why the americans use such a funny system, or even order of having schools XD

You may think learning is a chore, but it doesn't have to be. Humans naturally want to explore the world and understand it, and it should be the school's responsibility to nurture, encourage, and inspire this desire and to provide as many means of doing so as possible (teachers, books, computers, ect.). I love learning, but I don't like school, because it turns learning into a chore. Sure, not everybody is going to be interested in everything, but if they understand the basics needed to function, then I don't see why they should be required to go any farther. Why is if I want to go into a career that is completely unrelated to math, I still have to take higher math classes in high school and college? Because they want me to be well rounded? Sure, there's nothing wrong with being well rounded, but not everybody is good at everything, and being required to take a bunch of classes that are unrelated to what you want to get a career in, so you can get a piece of paper that lets you pursue that career, is absurd.

What I mean by linear grading is how grades are basically a narrow pathway from "fail" to "perfect." You could, for example, be extremely good at working with other people during the hands-on, labs and experiments in chemistry class. But when it comes to taking tests due to anxiety, remembering all of the details and information, and other things, you are terrible. Your grade, however, wouldn't necessarily reflect that reality, and instead would balance out to about a C (75%, average), or maybe even a D (60%, below average) since we are seeing a growing focus on testing in the American public school system. According to the grading system, you are basically the same as a person who may be average in both aspects of the class.

 

[Madara XIII]

http://shine.yahoo.com/event/momentsofmotherhood/failure-is-impossible-for-high-school-students-no-really-2410739/

Basically, this one school has decided to replace the "F" grade with the letter "I" for Incomplete. The reason why they did this is because they believe it can get students to "learn their lesson and catch up over the year." Naturally, there are people who oppose this new system and say it just coddles the students, making them believe that school and grades aren't a big deal.

The thing I'm confused about is the "I" grade supposedly convincing students to catch up. Isn't that what the "F" grade was basically designed for? From what I see, all you're doing is changing the letter of the absolute worst grade you can get, how is that going to change anything?

What do you guys think?

For the longest time, I've wondered why we don't replace "A+" with 'S,' [http://www.giantbomb.com/s-rank/92-2962/] it seems to work fine in games...

LOL Win!!! I love getting S ranks in Naruto and Devil May Cry! WHY THE HELL NOT HIGHSCHOOL!?

 

[Madara XIII]

It's just another example of our countries' (sorry, meaning the US) rising trend of rewarding failure. Kids also get trophies now just for losing so they don't "feel bad." The reason that failure exists is so that we can learn from our mistakes so that we understand the need to work hard in order to both improve ourselves and society as a whole.

And people wonder why the country is going down the toilet.

Indeed...*kicks rock*..

Well off to Sweden!! *Starts packing Bags*

 

[Dastardly]

= snip =

Of course we don't want to build on that theory as a foundation. We also don't want to get into the habit of over-excusing poor effort, or over-sorting our students based on early performance. I think there's a happy medium to be struck.

It isn't that I disagree with the idea that the "Everyone can learn everything!" philosophy is a problem. It certainly is. I just want to avoid the pendulum swinging all the way over to the "intelligence is wholly genetic, which means the second a child has a hard time with a concept, we stick them in a helmet" camp.