Fallout 3 did not ruin the lore established in previous games.
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Considering that the entire vault project was a giant social experiment created by The Enclave to test people under various insane conditions to see how they would react, I wouldn't be surprised if the FEV was part of that.Westaway said:
I could see it now "The FEV vault was designed to see how people would react to their friends and family being turned into mutants, and if the humans could successfully fight off the mutants that were made from their former friends", the answer, like the answer to 99% of all Vaults, is a big fat NOPE.
I really don't think there is anything you couldn't justify not being in a vault considering the Vault's enter purpose was simply to fuck with people.
I haven't seen anyone say any of the things that the OP is complaining about in regards of F3 breaking lore.
Except for maybe the thing about the BoS. Except he puts it in an extremely derisory way that makes clear that he has absolutely no wish to understand why the BoS alignment change doesn't make sense.
I like Fallout 3 for the most part. I just despise the Main Quest. It's horrible IMO.
The Brotherhood of Steel are an insular isolationist technocratic theocracy. Each member is raised in the brotherhood from birth to believe in and fight for the ideals of the brotherhood. To them the brotherhood is life. It means everything to them because they are taught from birth for it to mean everything to them.
The only way they would change their ideals is if they were forced to by a really bad situation, out of a sense of sheer pragmatism.
It is why by the time FNV hits they have lost almost all their influence over the waste lands.
On the DnD scale they are a lawful neutral organisation. As taught from birth.
Changing them and their entire eastern organisation to Lawful Good for F3 doesn't really make a whole lot of sense - at least not the whole lot of them save a few irrelevant hardliners changing the way they do; and while ordinarily it wouldn't be that big of a deal - it becomes a problem because they are inextricably linked to the main quest (which is nonsensical in its own right).
At least, not without any real or meaningful in game explanation for why they changed so drastically.
What is happening with the BoS (and to a lesser extent the Enclave) is that both Bethesda and those who support Bethesda's decision to change the alignment of the BoS is that they are looking at the organisation with their modern secularist western eyes, and thus imposing their own modern day morality onto the BoS. An organisation that does not, and would not, share our modern day morality and mentality.
There was a real failure of the part of the Devs, and those who "like" the "new BoS" to put themselves in the shoes of the actual BoS, IMO.
I have never seen anyone complain about the vaults being different in F3. I actually quite like the new aesthetic for them.
I do however in spite of the OPs derision think that it is a valid point.
Vault-Tec created the Vaults as part of Project Safehouse which was a giant social experiement to them; and as someone else said for them to have comparable results they created each vault to be very similar (if not the same) in look, feel, layout, and size.
Additionally the Vaults presented to us in F3 are far too small to sustain a viable population. If we take it as there being no more to the vaults than what we are shown, then those faults should have bred themselves out of existance by the time F3 hit.
There some other plot holes that people dislike, that are completely valid for them to dislike, that the OP completely missed out.
Possibly because in spite of his derision, he could not find anything about those points that he could sneer derisively about.
Granted I do get why he is a bit derisive about NoMutantsAllowed and the folk who frequent that site. I agree with him actually on that. I think they are a bunch of asshats.
But to lump EVERYONE who disliked F3, or thought it had plot holes in places, in with the NMA crowd as just "hating" is both inaccurate and unfair.
And it doesn't speak well of you OP.
EDIT:
I should note that while I think that F3 is Bethesda's worst game to date, that I still like it as a game. And there are many things about it I thoroughly enjoyed.
An example would be Bryan Wilks, and his whole questline. I connected better to him as a character, and as a person, than I did to any character in Fallout New Vegas. He was awesome; and I was so dissapointed we couldn't adopt him and teach him.
I just loath the main quest. And recognise that it has a number of literary problems that any writer worth his salt should be ashamed of allowing to happen. The game has a number of plot holes that damage my enjoyment of this game, sadly (though I still enjoy playing it - I just avoid the MQ like the plague).
Except for maybe the thing about the BoS. Except he puts it in an extremely derisory way that makes clear that he has absolutely no wish to understand why the BoS alignment change doesn't make sense.
I like Fallout 3 for the most part. I just despise the Main Quest. It's horrible IMO.
The Brotherhood of Steel are an insular isolationist technocratic theocracy. Each member is raised in the brotherhood from birth to believe in and fight for the ideals of the brotherhood. To them the brotherhood is life. It means everything to them because they are taught from birth for it to mean everything to them.
The only way they would change their ideals is if they were forced to by a really bad situation, out of a sense of sheer pragmatism.
It is why by the time FNV hits they have lost almost all their influence over the waste lands.
On the DnD scale they are a lawful neutral organisation. As taught from birth.
Changing them and their entire eastern organisation to Lawful Good for F3 doesn't really make a whole lot of sense - at least not the whole lot of them save a few irrelevant hardliners changing the way they do; and while ordinarily it wouldn't be that big of a deal - it becomes a problem because they are inextricably linked to the main quest (which is nonsensical in its own right).
At least, not without any real or meaningful in game explanation for why they changed so drastically.
What is happening with the BoS (and to a lesser extent the Enclave) is that both Bethesda and those who support Bethesda's decision to change the alignment of the BoS is that they are looking at the organisation with their modern secularist western eyes, and thus imposing their own modern day morality onto the BoS. An organisation that does not, and would not, share our modern day morality and mentality.
There was a real failure of the part of the Devs, and those who "like" the "new BoS" to put themselves in the shoes of the actual BoS, IMO.
I have never seen anyone complain about the vaults being different in F3. I actually quite like the new aesthetic for them.
I do however in spite of the OPs derision think that it is a valid point.
Vault-Tec created the Vaults as part of Project Safehouse which was a giant social experiement to them; and as someone else said for them to have comparable results they created each vault to be very similar (if not the same) in look, feel, layout, and size.
Additionally the Vaults presented to us in F3 are far too small to sustain a viable population. If we take it as there being no more to the vaults than what we are shown, then those faults should have bred themselves out of existance by the time F3 hit.
There some other plot holes that people dislike, that are completely valid for them to dislike, that the OP completely missed out.
Possibly because in spite of his derision, he could not find anything about those points that he could sneer derisively about.
Granted I do get why he is a bit derisive about NoMutantsAllowed and the folk who frequent that site. I agree with him actually on that. I think they are a bunch of asshats.
But to lump EVERYONE who disliked F3, or thought it had plot holes in places, in with the NMA crowd as just "hating" is both inaccurate and unfair.
And it doesn't speak well of you OP.
EDIT:
I should note that while I think that F3 is Bethesda's worst game to date, that I still like it as a game. And there are many things about it I thoroughly enjoyed.
An example would be Bryan Wilks, and his whole questline. I connected better to him as a character, and as a person, than I did to any character in Fallout New Vegas. He was awesome; and I was so dissapointed we couldn't adopt him and teach him.
I just loath the main quest. And recognise that it has a number of literary problems that any writer worth his salt should be ashamed of allowing to happen. The game has a number of plot holes that damage my enjoyment of this game, sadly (though I still enjoy playing it - I just avoid the MQ like the plague).
Vault-Tec didn't design the social experiment part of the vaults either, they just did what The Enclave told them.Westaway said:
This is futile, Bethesda has the lore, it will never go back, it is sad and unfortunate. WE CAN'T change Bethesda, all we can do as fans of the original's style is not buy the newer Fallouts that we disagree with, and perhaps look at other games that DO have things we are interested in, like Obsidian's project Eternity, or Wasteland 2, we are pretty lucky to get those at least. So for now, as fans of the old fallout lets just let our hate die, and just leave the franchise of Fallout 3+ for those that enjoy it now.
Nothing lost, everything gained. Aim to hate less, disperse to things that we can actually enjoy.
Nothing lost, everything gained. Aim to hate less, disperse to things that we can actually enjoy.
SajuukKhar said:
Thing is guys, you are both right on this issue.
On the one hand, the FEV was a highly top secret Enclave sponsered experiment in the days running up to The End of Days. Vault Tec being given access to this highly dangerous highly experimental virus as part of the project safehouse social experiments is highly questionable.
But on the other hand both projects were Enclave sponsered and it is possible if unlikely that someone in the Enclave gave an older strain of the virus to Vault Tec for use in one of the Vaults as part of the experiment.
The problem is, as with many of the problems with F3, is that to conclude that you need to use Metagame information. The game itself does not communicate that to you, and for the people who know about fallout lore even a little, then that is a little perplexing.
EDIT:
I should just note that this is one of those Your Mileage May Vary things.
The supermutant infestation in the DC area is a fairly important plot point, and for myself I feel like it has an adequate explanation already. And I am able to "connect the dots" as it were as to how the FEV virus got from a top secret lab in the west coast to a vault on the east coast.
And it is enough for me to handwave it. But I totally get why others might not like it or be able to accept it.
IMO it is a bit of a stretch, but given the nature of the entire vault experiment itself, which is itself a stretch, I don't find it impossible.FitScotGaymer said:
Improbable? sure
Should Bethesda have taken another route? sure
Sequels? The only sequel I know is New Vegas. And that's actually on the same engine, and made a bit prettier, as well. Unless you count DLCs as sequels.C. Cain said:
OT: Anyways, I don't think FO3 ruined the lore of the old Fallout games. It merely established a lore of its own using the old Fallout games as a base. Which I have a mixed reaction about.
Um, actually no, it wasn't. FEV was originally the Pan Immunity Viron Project, a government-funded biological project that would protect people from the New Plague. It was carried out by West Tek, a giant corporation also responsible for power armor, and it started in 2073 (two years after Vault 87 was completed). In 2075, it became FEV when the military realized what it did (increased intelligence, increased strength, etc.). Then the military took total control of FEV once human testing seemed possible, moving all research to Mariposa. Then the Enclave found it in Mariposa over a century and a half later, modifying it to wipe out "mutants"FitScotGaymer said:
Point being: the Enclave had NO role in FEV whatsoever
Except that wasn't Vault 87's experiment. The experiment was literally to study FEV, nothing more, nothing less. The government had no idea what kinds of mutations (if any) would be present in the post-apocalyptic world. That's why when the Enclave finally left the Oil Rig and explored the mainland, they were scared out of their minds by the super mutants and other mutants, which led to their attempts to exterminate all mutated life. If they had known about super mutants beforehand, they probably wouldn't have been so freaked out by them, now would they (this, by the way, was after the defeat of the Master, so the Enclave were scared of the rather small number of remaining super mutants that would've been rather docile by that point)SajuukKhar said:
MaulYoda said:
Lol.
I stand corrected.
Still a bit of a stretch for it to be in a vault like that tho.
~There IS a difference between "Fallout lore" and Fallout 1 lore~
I just joined The Escapist, and this is the first thread I see. Oh Lord...
Okay, here goes.
Bethesda gave us the first Fallout of the modern era on the opposite side of the country. They gave us great stories and great characters. Fallout 3 doesn't fly in the face of lore. You say the Brotherhood of Steel is soft... WE KNOW THAT. It explicitly provides back story on Elder Lyons and how he was a kindred spirit for the suffering wastelanders. The Outcasts are the ones who follow West Coast BoS ideology.
I think it would of went a long way though if it were made lore that Lyons belonged to the Followers in this youth but became Brotherhood and then rose through the ranks, eventually making his way to the East Coast.
Do all of you really think that the West Coast (1&2) should be the same as the East Coast? They should be different! They're basically 2 different cultures now! No country, no nothing anymore. Two places 3,000 miles away from each other.
The seat of power in the former government was on the East Coast, yet you say the Enclave on the East Coast isn't Fallout lore? No, it isn't Fallout 1 lore, but it is Fallout lore and that is the difference I want to make clear.
Things became different and the fact that Bethesda had Obsidian working on FNV, I think, shows that they WANT it that way. When you think Fallout 3, don't think West Coast. But it's STILL Fallout, it's still "Fallout lore" and anyone who says otherwise is sadly mistaken.
No, it's not wacky, but it has a great story of overcoming adversity and (hopefully) becoming the Last, Best hope of humanity for the Capital Wasteland. Fallout 3 is my favorite Fallout game, and hopefully F1 and F2 fans don't go off on this like "sldfjboefjbpfjbaprugnpadijngLFJK" because you know what? We're all fans. But I'm an East Coast Fallout guy. I can't wait for Fallout 4.
So in the mean time... stop complaining -____-
I just joined The Escapist, and this is the first thread I see. Oh Lord...
Okay, here goes.
Bethesda gave us the first Fallout of the modern era on the opposite side of the country. They gave us great stories and great characters. Fallout 3 doesn't fly in the face of lore. You say the Brotherhood of Steel is soft... WE KNOW THAT. It explicitly provides back story on Elder Lyons and how he was a kindred spirit for the suffering wastelanders. The Outcasts are the ones who follow West Coast BoS ideology.
I think it would of went a long way though if it were made lore that Lyons belonged to the Followers in this youth but became Brotherhood and then rose through the ranks, eventually making his way to the East Coast.
Do all of you really think that the West Coast (1&2) should be the same as the East Coast? They should be different! They're basically 2 different cultures now! No country, no nothing anymore. Two places 3,000 miles away from each other.
The seat of power in the former government was on the East Coast, yet you say the Enclave on the East Coast isn't Fallout lore? No, it isn't Fallout 1 lore, but it is Fallout lore and that is the difference I want to make clear.
Things became different and the fact that Bethesda had Obsidian working on FNV, I think, shows that they WANT it that way. When you think Fallout 3, don't think West Coast. But it's STILL Fallout, it's still "Fallout lore" and anyone who says otherwise is sadly mistaken.
No, it's not wacky, but it has a great story of overcoming adversity and (hopefully) becoming the Last, Best hope of humanity for the Capital Wasteland. Fallout 3 is my favorite Fallout game, and hopefully F1 and F2 fans don't go off on this like "sldfjboefjbpfjbaprugnpadijngLFJK" because you know what? We're all fans. But I'm an East Coast Fallout guy. I can't wait for Fallout 4.
So in the mean time... stop complaining -____-
your very first post and what do you do? you necro a thread that has been dead for long, congratulations.Alec Rider said:
and no we wont stop complaining, why should we? because we disagree with you? well now isn't that a bit egocentric of you.
also since when is the the first game in a series not part of the lore? its the first one, the very basis, and the second one only kept building on that. mean while fallout 3 comes along and completely screws up everything like the mess it is, and no it did not ruin the lore because of the brotherhood, fallout tactics already pulled this shit before and it managed to go un-noticed, the problem lies in the enclave them self in that they were almost completely annihilated in fallout 2 and now, suddenly they have a full scale armies in fallout 3 and apparently dominate a large part of the east coast.