Fantastic Beasts: The Question of What the Hell I just Saw

Recommended Videos

PsychedelicDiamond

Wild at Heart and weird on top
Legacy
Jan 30, 2011
2,197
1,102
118
Dear Escapist Friends,

back when I saw the original Harry Potter movies I often found myself thinking "Boy, I'd sure be lost watching these, if I hadn't read the books". Now, after watching Crimes of Grindelwald, I felt the same way, only that there's no book I could have read. Now, the first movie was, overall, a fairly simplistic affair, at least most of the time. Yo had Dr. Who-little going to 20s New York because of some magical creature, there was a B-Plot about an evil wizard trying to corrupt a young boy who wasn't aware he's a wizard himself, it was all pretty straightfoward and, in its better moments, rather charming. The sequel is neither of these things and makes that clear from it's very first scene.

For some reason the Harry Potter series has got it in its head that it needs to be dark and mature now, which already hurt the last few books and the films even moreso, but Fantastic Beasts 2 practically wallows in its own grittyness. It starts of with the titular villain escaping from custody in what is in theory a pretty enjoyable action setpiece, had it not been a dark, stormy, indulgently "gothic" visual mess that looks what people who don't like Zack Snyder movies think a Zack Snyder movie looks like. It continues as it started, only that it gets even more confusing as it goes on. I'm not kidding, it had countless moments where I couldn't help but wonder things like "How did we get here", "where did this come from" and "What's even happening." and mind you, I'm saying this as someone who grew up with the books. I have no idea how someone mostly unfamiliar with the franchise would react to any of it. Talking about this franchise, it seems like its official name is "Wizarding World" now, which is better than "Potterverse", but only slightly.

See, the thing is, Crimes of Grindelwald technically has a lot going on. Some of which is technically even interesting. The problem is, the pacing is too jumpy for most of it to properly sink in. There were a few things I genuinely appreciated, like Gellert Grindelwald being an immeasurably more engaging antagonist than Lord Voldemort (And Johnny Depp, for the first time in a long time, actually putting in some effort) and some of the character relationships having the potential to be worth following. It's such a shame that all of that which works has to take a backseat to countless visually confusing things happening at the same time. Maybe it's one of these movies that I have to watch a second time before I realize that, hey, a lot of this is actually quite genius, but I can't say that I find that very likely. Maybe this whole deal is much easier to follow once I get to watch it outside of a movie theatre, that magical place where you can see films wearing a pair of sunglasses in a dark room while a greek chorus of twelve year olds provides a running commentary on what you're seeing.

See, there are some ideas here that I rather liked. They seem to build up the character of Credence Barebone, the orphan kid played by Ezra Miller, as a kind of parallel to Harry Potter with Grindelwald as his Dumbledore, which has the potential to lead to some of these strangely satisfying moments of poetic synchronicity that the Star Wars prequels liked so much. It has a wonderful speech of Grindelwald , outlining his cryptofascist notions of wizard supremacy, in a way that actually made me see what his point was and why exactly he thinks that wizards should rule muggles... and why people would follow him. The flashbacks showing the past of Leta LeStrange were quite well realized and fleshed her out as a character in a way the rest of the movie mostly failed to do. And now that I'm describing all these things to you I start wondering why I didn't like this movie more until everything else about it comes to mind.

See, well before the movie came out it was announced that Nagini, Lord Voldemort's pet snake in the books, used to be human and would appear in this movie. Which she sure does, turning out that she used to be sideshow attraction, but for all intents and purposes she was a complete noncharacter that mostly served as an accesory to Credence and, as far as I remember, hardly did anything. Late in the movie there was a scene of a character from the first movie joining Grindelwald for reasons absolutely unrelatable to the viewer, seeing how that particular character didn't have anything resembling an arc throughout the entire movie, making the best reason I could come up with for her making that decision "Well, she's just not very smart, I guess." Which is still really jarring because in the first movie she was a very straightforward, if rather likeable, variation of the old manic pixie dreamgirl archetype. Yes, I know, I just spoiled who it is but, believe me, it's still gonna come out of nowhere anyway.

See, this is a thing I was already thinking with the first one: These movies are the clumsy first attempts of a novellist to write a screenplay without realizing that the requirements are actually quite different. Contrary to what you may think, I don't think Of Mrs. Rowling as a bad storyteller, as a matter of fact I can easily see how much of Crimes of Grindelwald could have worked much better in, say, a 700 pages book, but for a 2 hour movie it feels rushed, confused and overstuffed and David Yates' hectic, effects driven direction only serves to make these problems worse.

There's some stuff to enjoy in Fantastic Beasts 2 but it certainly expects you to put up with a lot of bullshit to get to it. This is a movie that has exposition where any other action movie would have a climax. I didn't hate it and it had moments where I was fascinated with it but, I gotta be honest with you, it wasn't enjoyment that I felt throughout most of it. Fantastic Beasts 1 was a movie that I approached with a lot of good will, maybe more than it deserved, and that I rated rather positively, the sequel however is a pretty strange beast. No pun intended. I'm about as on board with anything related to Harry Potter as you can get and I still don't feel like this movie was made for me. I do have a colleague at work who's crazier about the series than me and she dug the hell out of it so maybe I'm too critical. I'd like to say "I can recommend this movie to diehard fans only" but... can I? Can I really? It left me with mixed feelings, not all of them bad, but probably most of them. But maybe you're gonna like it. I dunno.
 

Dansen

Master Lurker
Mar 24, 2010
932
39
33
PsychedelicDiamond said:
Dear Escapist Friends,


It starts of with the titular villain escaping from custody in what is in theory a pretty enjoyable action setpiece, had it not been a dark, stormy, indulgently "gothic" visual mess that looks what people who don't like Zack Snyder movies think a Zack Snyder movie looks like.
What does this mean? I've seen his films, the man doesn't understand colors. So the scene is very grey and desaturated?
 
Apr 17, 2009
1,751
0
0
Just saw it myself. Was not a fan. I thought the first one was merely a half-hearted cash grab but this one was just a mess. I have a sneaking feeling its going to be like the Hobbit films, shaky start and getting worse as they go on. A lot of the same flaws as the Hobbit films too, trying to hard to reference the previous set of films at the expense of the writing of these ones

PsychedelicDiamond said:
There were a few things I genuinely appreciated, like Gellert Grindelwald being an immeasurably more engaging antagonist than Lord Voldemort (And Johnny Depp, for the first time in a long time, actually putting in some effort) and some of the character relationships having the potential to be worth following
Really? I thought he was dull as ditchwater. Voldemort is as cliched as they come but at least Ralph Fiennes was hammy as hell and fun to watch. Depp just burbles his way through all his lines and meanders about the place like he's just wandered on set to stretch his legs a bit. I did like a bit of extra stuff on Grindelwald and Dumbledore though, kind of made me want a film about that instead. Same as the first one made me want to watch a film about Newt fighting WWI with dragons instead of what we actually got

PsychedelicDiamond said:
See, there are some ideas here that I rather liked. They seem to build up the character of Credence Barebone, the orphan kid played by Ezra Miller, as a kind of parallel to Harry Potter with Grindelwald as his Dumbledore, which has the potential to lead to some of these strangely satisfying moments of poetic synchronicity that the Star Wars prequels liked so much.
My problem with this is they also seem to be trying to do this Newt. Who gets told he's "the only one who can do this" and all that. And in both cases it seems to fundamentally misunderstand the Chosen One dynamic in the original films, where the prophecy was only destined to be fulfilled because Voldemort was insisting on trying to make sure it was fulfilled (something that often came back to bite him). Here everything is all destiny and omens and portents and shit and just makes all the characters feel like pawns being pushed around rather than actual characters.
Also, they set Credence up as some kind of superweapon who can take out Dumbledore...but that assassin dude manages to stop him pretty handily with what looks to be a very basic shield charm. He's rendered basically powerless against a bubble that he can't pop

PsychedelicDiamond said:
See, well before the movie came out it was announced that Nagini, Lord Voldemort's pet snake in the books, used to be human and would appear in this movie. Which she sure does, turning out that she used to be sideshow attraction, but for all intents and purposes she was a complete noncharacter that mostly served as an accesory to Credence and, as far as I remember, hardly did anything.
This baffled me too. Why was she even in the film? I thought she might be around so Credence could talk to someone...but they barely share any words, and its nothing that couldn't have been achieved by having him just talk to that chick he found. Which would have humanised him a bit more and added foreshadowing to what that chick really is. As is, Nagini just seems to be around because they wanted someone in a slinky dress (see also pretty much everything Leta wears)

PsychedelicDiamond said:
Late in the movie there was a scene of a character from the first movie joining Grindelwald for reasons absolutely unrelatable to the viewer, seeing how that particular character didn't have anything resembling an arc throughout the entire movie, making the best reason I could come up with for her making that decision "Well, she's just not very smart, I guess." Which is still really jarring because in the first movie she was a very straightforward, if rather likeable, variation of the old manic pixie dreamgirl archetype. Yes, I know, I just spoiled who it is but, believe me, it's still gonna come out of nowhere anyway.
God this irritated the hell out of me. If you want the freedom to marry a muggle why the hell would you side with Grindelwald, who says himself that he sees muggles as basically pack animals. In his idea of society there'd likely be even more stigma about marrying muggles!

PsychedelicDiamond said:
as a matter of fact I can easily see how much of Crimes of Grindelwald could have worked much better in, say, a 700 pages book, but for a 2 hour movie it feels rushed, confused and overstuffed and David Yates' hectic, effects driven direction only serves to make these problems worse.
Yes, there's moments where I get flashes of what they might have been going for, or where there might have been a better story but the whole thing just seems so...mandated. Have to hit all the notes that we think people liked from the Harry Potter films, regardless of how cluttered or nonsensical it makes the story we're trying to write now
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,637
2,859
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
Saw it yesterday with my family for my father's birthday. Really enjoyed it. I especially like Newt for perhaps obvious reasons, one of my sisters had even turned to our mother at one point and said, "That is an autistic wizard."

I'm not surprised that there are a lot of things that need developing, they apparently plan on making this a five movie series so I'll hold judgement of development until we get more movies.

My only real problem with the movie was the giant info dump near the end about the past of the Lestrange family which took me some time to figure out afterwards. I liked it though, good movie.
 

Natemans

New member
Apr 5, 2017
681
0
0
I especially find it odd the bit when Grindelwald vapes and blows smoke to show his followers that he could have prevented the Holocaust.
 

Natemans

New member
Apr 5, 2017
681
0
0
Dansen said:
PsychedelicDiamond said:
Dear Escapist Friends,


It starts of with the titular villain escaping from custody in what is in theory a pretty enjoyable action setpiece, had it not been a dark, stormy, indulgently "gothic" visual mess that looks what people who don't like Zack Snyder movies think a Zack Snyder movie looks like.
What does this mean? I've seen his films, the man doesn't understand colors. So the scene is very grey and desaturated?
Most of this film looks dark and desaturated. Even by the first scene.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

Wild at Heart and weird on top
Legacy
Jan 30, 2011
2,197
1,102
118
Natemans said:
I especially find it odd the bit when Grindelwald vapes and blows smoke to show his followers that he could have prevented the Holocaust.
I was fine with that. It's hamfisted as hell but it does a fine job establishing his motivation. Why does he want to enslave muggles? Because they're about to pull this shit. And just like that everyone gets where he's coming from.
 

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,637
2,859
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
PsychedelicDiamond said:
Natemans said:
I especially find it odd the bit when Grindelwald vapes and blows smoke to show his followers that he could have prevented the Holocaust.
I was fine with that. It's hamfisted as hell but it does a fine job establishing his motivation. Why does he want to enslave muggles? Because they're about to pull this shit. And just like that everyone gets where he's coming from.
I also felt the same at first when that scene started but at the same time given that the film takes place in 1927, it's not as if that threat is that far off so it makes sense in context as apposed to how this kind of scene can so often be used as a generic "people in the future will do dumb shit", this is a specific and looming threat in the context of the movie.
 

Callate

New member
Dec 5, 2008
5,118
0
0
The movie has a rhythm that's kind of BOOM! exposition exposition exposition BOOM! exposition exposition BOOM!

Some of the "boom" is very pretty, but it's hard not to feel like it's there because they're afraid the audience will fall asleep without it.

I did like that they gave Grindelwald an argument that actually allowed one to see why he might have a following, rather than Voldemort's essential "Do you want to be one of the elite, or one of those @#$% Muggle-lovers?" The last scenes actually managed to provoke some tension, in part because it was far from certain which side was going to escalate to violence... Which topically has been much on my mind, of late.

A bit less enthralled by the whole "every woman is secretly in love with Newt" theme. He's kind of a doofus, and played as such. I just don't see it. Not just an "anti-authority, can't be held back by the system rebel" type, but an actual socially-blundering doesn't-really-get-along-with-anyone-but-his-beloved-animals doofus. And, yeah, even doofuses find love... but you would think he was a matinee idol from the reactions he gets.
 

Hawki

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 4, 2014
9,651
2,179
118
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
PsychedelicDiamond said:
Dear Escapist Friends,

back when I saw the original Harry Potter movies I often found myself thinking "Boy, I'd sure be lost watching these, if I hadn't read the books".
For some reason the Harry Potter series has got it in its head that it needs to be dark and mature now, which already hurt the last few books and the films even moreso,
Disagree there.

Talking about this franchise, it seems like its official name is "Wizarding World" now, which is better than "Potterverse", but only slightly.
I actually prefer "Potterverse." Simplier, rolls off the tongue better.

See, there are some ideas here that I rather liked. They seem to build up the character of Credence Barebone, the orphan kid played by Ezra Miller, as a kind of parallel to Harry Potter with Grindelwald as his Dumbledore, which has the potential to lead to some of these strangely satisfying moments of poetic synchronicity that the Star Wars prequels liked so much.[/quote]

I keep seeing people claim that Credence is a parallel to Harry, and I really don't see that. Harry was an orphan, but he never had an identity crisis. He knew who his parents were, and while Hagrid told him the truth, up to that point, he wasn't spending much time questioning who or what he was. Also, even if this is the case, we've already had a Harry parallel with Voldemort/Tom Riddle, which was done much better in the whole "I'm what you could have been" thing.

It has a wonderful speech of Grindelwald , outlining his cryptofascist notions of wizard supremacy, in a way that actually made me see what his point was and why exactly he thinks that wizards should rule muggles... and why people would follow him.
True, kinda.

The flashbacks showing the past of Leta LeStrange were quite well realized and fleshed her out as a character in a way the rest of the movie mostly failed to do. And now that I'm describing all these things to you I start wondering why I didn't like this movie more until everything else about it comes to mind.
Yep...too bad that Leta is pretty academic to the entirety of the film.

See, well before the movie came out it was announced that Nagini, Lord Voldemort's pet snake in the books, used to be human and would appear in this movie. Which she sure does, turning out that she used to be sideshow attraction, but for all intents and purposes she was a complete noncharacter that mostly served as an accesory to Credence and, as far as I remember, hardly did anything.
Nagini, like a lot in this film, is here for fan service.

But that said, who read the books/saw the films and asked "gee, what's the backstory of this snake?" Well, here's your answer - a girl who does nothing, says nothing, and is there for fan service and to stand there looking said. Could you tell an interesting story with Nagini and Credence? Yes. But this isn't the movie for it because there's just so much CRAP going on at once that it gets lost in the shuffle.

Palindromemordnilap said:
Just saw it myself. Was not a fan. I thought the first one was merely a half-hearted cash grab but this one was just a mess. I have a sneaking feeling its going to be like the Hobbit films, shaky start and getting worse as they go on.
I'll defend the Hobbit films till the grave (I think they're good), but this is far worse than the Hobbit films IMO. The Hobbit may have referenced the other films/lore, but that was lore that already existed. Fantastic Beasts is more like...this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouMV8EhR3Jw
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

New member
Aug 2, 2015
7,915
0
0
I am waiting for the next Middle Earth movie if it ever gets made. Harry Potter should have stayed at Deathly Hallows.

I almost have no faith in that Amazon Lord of the Rings with the people helming it (they are the same guys that did the Abrams Star Trek trilogy.)

And pardon my politics, but I fear there is gonna be some...."SJW-isms" applied to Amazon's Lord of the Rings. And I say this as a guy that owns the books and have been deeply entrenched in Middle Earth lore.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

New member
Aug 2, 2015
7,915
0
0
undeadsuitor said:
Samtemdo8 said:
And pardon my politics, but I fear there is gonna be some...."SJW-isms" applied to Amazon's Lord of the Rings. And I say this as a guy that owns the books and have been deeply entrenched in Middle Earth lore.
like what?

female hobbits?
Less "Racist" depiction of Orcs? Like making Orc actual people with feelings, as if they were Warcraft Orcs (Which they are not)

Like I doubt they are gonna make the Middle Earth Orcs look like this:



Let alone how Tolkien actually described them:

"squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types"

And another thing is probably including things like a ambigously gay character or a Tauriel like situation of a made up female lead character. And just straight up changes and retcons to the story to make it "appropirate" for modern standards and sensibilities I.E. for people that can't handle anything deemed "prejudiced."

But even putting that aside, who the fuck are they gonna cast for this franchise? Appearenlty its gonna be about the Origin story of Aragorn in his youth.
 
Apr 17, 2009
1,751
0
0
Hawki said:
Palindromemordnilap said:
Just saw it myself. Was not a fan. I thought the first one was merely a half-hearted cash grab but this one was just a mess. I have a sneaking feeling its going to be like the Hobbit films, shaky start and getting worse as they go on.
I'll defend the Hobbit films till the grave (I think they're good), but this is far worse than the Hobbit films IMO. The Hobbit may have referenced the other films/lore, but that was lore that already existed. Fantastic Beasts is more like...this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouMV8EhR3Jw
I thought Unexpected Journey was alright. But the tone as they went on just shifted further and further from that charm and just became a slog to sit through. Beasts has that same problem, it should have been a fun romp about a quirky wizard roaming the world looking at cool animals but oh here comes the conspiracies and the references to past films and all this chosen one drama bullshit. I just want to see more of Newt collecting his beasts! You could have set him against an evil poacher or something! It would have been fun...
 
Apr 17, 2009
1,751
0
0
Samtemdo8 said:
undeadsuitor said:
Samtemdo8 said:
And pardon my politics, but I fear there is gonna be some...."SJW-isms" applied to Amazon's Lord of the Rings. And I say this as a guy that owns the books and have been deeply entrenched in Middle Earth lore.
like what?

female hobbits?
Less "Racist" depiction of Orcs? Like making Orc actual people with feelings, as if they were Warcraft Orcs (Which they are not)

Like I doubt they are gonna make the Middle Earth Orcs look like this:

[image snip]

Let alone how Tolkien actually described them:

"squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types"

And another thing is probably including things like a ambigously gay character or a Tauriel like situation of a made up female lead character. And just straight up changes and retcons to the story to make it "appropirate" for modern standards and sensibilities I.E. for people that can't handle anything deemed "prejudiced."

But even putting that aside, who the fuck are they gonna cast for this franchise? Appearenlty its gonna be about the Origin story of Aragorn in his youth.
Because woe betide they not follow exactly to the racist ideals of the original author. What a loss that shall be.

As for who could play young Aragorn, how about that guy they originally hired before deciding he looked too young and replacing him with Viggo Mortenson? I don't know if he'd still look too young a decade later but would be a fun mythology gag
 

Hawki

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 4, 2014
9,651
2,179
118
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Samtemdo8 said:
Less "Racist" depiction of Orcs?
You mean what pretty much every adaptation of LotR has done already?

That isn't PC at this point, that's par for the course.

Like making Orc actual people with feelings, as if they were Warcraft Orcs (Which they are not)
I doubt they would, but even if they did, that wouldn't be PC. Orcs are made up creatures. They get to have made up feelings as well.

And another thing is probably including things like a ambigously gay character or a Tauriel like situation of a made up female lead character. And just straight up changes and retcons to the story to make it "appropirate" for modern standards and sensibilities I.E. for people that can't handle anything deemed "prejudiced."
Oh the horror. Oh the humanity.

Middle-earth isn't going to end because of a gay character - I doubt the race of Men only got a 'gay gene' with the Fourth Age. As for Tauriel, she's more noticable in that she's an OC that reeks of self-insertion, but her presence is easily understandable in a corporate sense. The Hobbit (the book) doesn't have a single female character. Tauriel is created to thus bring in the female audience. This is me projecting, but given how popular a character she is on ff.net, apparently it worked.

There's some elements of "PCness" that would break elements of the setting (e.g. if Rohan freely allowed women to serve as riders, thus rendering Eowyn's plotline moot), but the above examples aren't really, well, examples of such elements.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

Queen of the Edit
Feb 4, 2009
3,647
0
0
Samtemdo8 said:
Less "Racist" depiction of Orcs? Like making Orc actual people with feelings, as if they were Warcraft Orcs (Which they are not)

Like I doubt they are gonna make the Middle Earth Orcs look like this:

Let alone how Tolkien actually described them:

"squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types"

And another thing is probably including things like a ambigously gay character or a Tauriel like situation of a made up female lead character. And just straight up changes and retcons to the story to make it "appropirate" for modern standards and sensibilities I.E. for people that can't handle anything deemed "prejudiced."
Wait a minute ... not emulating the ideas and conceptions British people had for other groups of people living in the dying days of the British Empire is all it takes to be an SJW?

Wow ... Can I ask if that's actually what you want?

I mean, did you ever stop to consider the fact that attitudes and consumption dynamics change and the simple fact that maybe everyone prefers a simulacra of the high fantasy genre, not necessarily all the racist baggage that often came with British authors alike so many of Tolkien's contemporaries? That, I don't know ... capitalism is a thing and they want to make money and that hopefully people can separate the high fantasy from the author's preconceptions when they aren't even important to the plot?

That in the end we're talking about entertainment. That most people legitimately do not want to replicate those attitudes because they recognize it's wrong and gets in the way of that actual entertainment? If all it takes to be an SJW is basically an argument that we should not replicate the atrocious attitudes of the past ... much less an argument that people shouldn't be expected to replicate it when it is literally a pointless exercise ... then what's the actual argument here?