Fantastic Beasts: The Question of What the Hell I just Saw

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

IDK ... is there enough wizards to do that with every politician out there?

Wouldn't need every politician. Just the right ones. The ones in the right places or that others will follow. In-universe Umbridge was never placed under Imperius, but she was quite happy to follow along with the orders from the guy who was. Hell, look at American politics right now and how Republican politicians seem to skip right along with whatever batshit lunacy Trump is doing this particular week

Moreover, the Imperius curse can be resisted by people of incredible will. So arguably many of the command structures fighting a war against wizards, suitably driven to the goal of ultimate victory from a personal basis of fighting enslavement, may shrug it off. Plus Imperius ends the second the wizard who cast it dies.

Yeah but in the entire series we've seen precisely one person do that, and he has the advantage of being the protagonist with a suite of built in deus ex machinas helping him out. So I think we're talking about one in a million odds you can shake off a powerful curse like that, and those odds get worse since most people won't have any idea whats happened and won't be sure how to fight it. As the curse is portrayed it works like Kilgrave from Jessica Jones in that it makes you think you absolutely want to go along with what the curse is telling you to do, so who knows if muggles who don't know they've been cursed have any chance at all of resisting it.
Also, whats this "command structure of a war against wizards"? This is step one here, the war hasn't started yet, there is no organising against wizard kind yet.

So first of all you need a wizard who can cast the spell, then you have to have said wizard get close, then said victim has to fail to resist it, and the wizard also has to survive the attempt, and you have tens of thousands of targets worldwide. After all, if you're talking a global war, you don't just have one head of state you need to control. Moreovcer, fear of such things may inculcate an environment of immediate prejudice towards any politician that seems to have had a sudden conversion from fighting.

I mean, all of those first things are really easy. Most of Voldemort's followers have no problem using the curse or teleporting instantly anywhere they want or using concealment charms to stay hidden so politicians with no idea they're up against something they think is fiction are going to have no chance at all. And there will be no fear or suspicion since, like I said, this is Step One. War hasn't begun yet, Muggles don't know there's wizards, don't know they're in any kind of fight

Arguably the most suitable targets would be 3 and 4 star generals ... but then again, many of these people would be suitably powerful minds. Say what you like about the military, it does inculcate an environment of personal strength and conviction. So if anyone were to routinely resist the effects of the spell, it would be these vetted people who are in charge of the active co-ordination of soldiers to destroy the threat.

Barty Crouch Senior, one of the most iron willed, unbending mofos in all the books could only half resist the Imperius curse even when he knew exactly what was happening. Against a muggle general, who has no idea these suggestions in his head are anything but his own, do you think they'd really have a chance?

Compare and contrast that to entirely mundane ways of non-magical brainwashing, and I think muggles have the upper hand in creating sleeper agents. After all, muggles just need to break the mind of one wizard to get to others of their kind for every thousand of commanders and cabinet politicians they have to target in turn.

Yeah but this once again depends on the Muggles knowing whats going on and knowing there would be something to fight. Not going to help you against a takeover of a government that no-one expects and no-one sees

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Wouldn't need every politician. Just the right ones. The ones in the right places or that others will follow. In-universe Umbridge was never placed under Imperius, but she was quite happy to follow along with the orders from the guy who was. Hell, look at American politics right now and how Republican politicians seem to skip right along with whatever batshit lunacy Trump is doing this particular week

Umbridge's career wouldn't survive a single phone call to UK's Department of Education. That's the thing, muggles have bureaucracy precisely because we don't have magic. Moreover, you're assuming that we couldn't use the Imperius curse to our own benefit. Say it was determined quetly (an eyewitness, an informant, a security camera, etc) ... you could feed misinformation to them, quietly, and drw wizards out that way.

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Yeah but in the entire series we've seen precisely one person do that, and he has the advantage of being the protagonist with a suite of built in deus ex machinas helping him out.

So we're assuming the universe has no laws of its own? That's kind of problematic on its own.

So I think we're talking about one in a million odds you can shake off a powerful curse like that, and those odds get worse since most people won't have any idea whats happened and won't be sure how to fight it. As the curse is portrayed it works like Kilgrave from Jessica Jones in that it makes you think you absolutely want to go along with what the curse is telling you to do, so who knows if muggles who don't know they've been cursed have any chance at all of resisting it.

But then again, you only need one person. And this also assumes muggles can't use people socursed against the wizards themselves. Once again, it's a matter of bureaucracy and numbers. We only need to kill one of them to make 1000 casualties be relatively worth it to do so.

Also, whats this "command structure of a war against wizards"? This is step one here, the war hasn't started yet, there is no organising against wizard kind yet.

Which is precisely my point. Grindelwald terrorized his way through Europe, and muggles seem incredibly tolerant of that. As opposed to, you know, treating wizards as simply terrorists.

I mean, all of those first things are really easy. Most of Voldemort's followers have no problem using the curse or teleporting instantly anywhere they want or using concealment charms to stay hidden so politicians with no idea they're up against something they think is fiction are going to have no chance at all. And there will be no fear or suspicion since, like I said, this is Step One. War hasn't begun yet, Muggles don't know there's wizards, don't know they're in any kind of fight

Don't know there are wizards yet. Grindelwald's war is all about ending that invisibility itself. It's about trying to dominate muggles. And that requires visibility. If wizards are simply threatening various heads of state, as I wrote before all it takes is one wizard to tell muggles about the threat facing them. That's all it would take. One wizard.

The information that one wizard could provide would proibably be enough to wage a secret war, with a devastating first strike that will be unforeseen.

Barty Crouch Senior, one of the most iron willed, unbending mofos in all the books could only half resist the Imperius curse even when he knew exactly what was happening. Against a muggle general, who has no idea these suggestions in his head are anything but his own, do you think they'd really have a chance?

Barty Crouch Snr. was not a soldier, much less a highly vetted officer. Whether people like to admit it or not, the military is one of the few places that have come the closest to achieving a meritocracy. It's very efficacy demands it. Sir Peter Cosgrove was our Chief when I enlisted, and as a lieutenant in Vietnam his service record is nothing but bravery, skill and cunning. Personally taking to the battle and destroying the enemy with his weapon, but also besting the enemy with a superlative understanding of tactics, strategy and command.

The military is replete with nothing but people with iron will and conviction for victory.

The world of 1945 would have millions of people worldwide with similar experiences and where the iron will to survive and press the attack was what got them through the days. If you're going to find people who can fight the Imperius curse, you're going to find them in the soldiers that have faced the most devstating conflict in human history and personally staked their very lives for the safety of their fellow soldiers.

Yeah but this once again depends on the Muggles knowing whats going on and knowing there would be something to fight. Not going to help you against a takeover of a government that no-one expects and no-one sees

As I was saying before, it would take but one wizard illuminating the threat, and Grindelwald's stated objectives were enslaving muggles. Grindelwald doesn't want secrecy, and if it ever got to the point where he was going to make a major push that would eliminate all doubt as to the existence of wizards then the moral position to take is informing muggle authorities of the threat.

Whereby whatever information that can be provided, then go on to blunten any assault by wizards with a pre-emptive strike.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

Umbridge's career wouldn't survive a single phone call to UK's Department of Education. That's the thing, muggles have bureaucracy precisely because we don't have magic. Moreover, you're assuming that we couldn't use the Imperius curse to our own benefit. Say it was determined quetly (an eyewitness, an informant, a security camera, etc) ... you could feed misinformation to them, quietly, and drw wizards out that way.

If bureaucracy was any good at actually stopping corruption or incompetence in a position then every politician mentioned in the Panama Papers would have had their careers ended. Yet they seem to be going strong. And I'm afraid I am going to have to mention Trump again, and how just one guy can suddenly mean all the rot starts coming forward.

So we're assuming the universe has no laws of its own? That's kind of problematic on its own.

Oh it has rules. And that rules is "The Imperius Curse is super hard to break". You seem to be under the assumption that just anyone could shrug it off so I'm highlighting just how tricky the series has demonstrated that to be

But then again, you only need one person. And this also assumes muggles can't use people socursed against the wizards themselves. Once again, it's a matter of bureaucracy and numbers. We only need to kill one of them to make 1000 casualties be relatively worth it to do so.

Okay, one person breaks the hold the Imperius Curse has. He starts babbling about wizards and magic, probably not in great state given what we've seen of people trying to break Imperius before...and promptly gets forcibly retired or packed off to an asylum. Because the things he's saying are insane. And the evil wizards just move on to curse his replacement. Because what else do you expect to happen in a scenario like that?

Which is precisely my point. Grindelwald terrorized his way through Europe, and muggles seem incredibly tolerant of that. As opposed to, you know, treating wizards as simply terrorists.

Because they don't know its wizards. And everyone thinks wizards are fiction so why would they ever think it was wizards? Are you assuming Grindelwald also left a nice note at the scene of his crimes explaining who he was and exactly what was going on? You have a shit ton of civil unrest going on the 20s, its just going to pinned on, like, the bolsheviks or something

Don't know there are wizards yet. Grindelwald's war is all about ending that invisibility itself. It's about trying to dominate muggles. And that requires visibility. If wizards are simply threatening various heads of state, as I wrote before all it takes is one wizard to tell muggles about the threat facing them. That's all it would take. One wizard.

The information that one wizard could provide would proibably be enough to wage a secret war, with a devastating first strike that will be unforeseen.

Yes, but the point I'm making is that if you want to come out the shadows and dominate the Muggles you're going to want to neutralise their effectiveness in fighting back first. And by the time you do come out the shadows you're going to have infiltrated and assumed control of their governments before they actually realise whats going on. And they're not threatening those heads of state, they're not bribing them, they're not blackmailing them, they're placing them under magical, mostly unbreakable mind control. Not quite the same
And I have to ask what you think that one wizard is going to say or do to get everyone suddenly believing wizard-kind exists. Tell those heads of state he knows is under threat? Why should they believe him? Demonstrate some spells? Just going to think thats a trick. Humans largely don't believe magic actually exists, you have someone telling us they're a wizard we're just going to assume they're some David Copperfield wannabe

Barty Crouch Snr. was not a soldier, much less a highly vetted officer. Whether people like to admit it or not, the military is one of the few places that have come the closest to achieving a meritocracy. It's very efficacy demands it. Sir Peter Cosgrove was our Chief when I enlisted, and as a lieutenant in Vietnam his service record is nothing but bravery, skill and cunning. Personally taking to the battle and destroying the enemy with his weapon, but also besting the enemy with a superlative understanding of tactics, strategy and command.

Sorry, but this is just your bias showing through. Being a soldier does not grant you +3 to your Wisdom and a resistance to psychic damage rolls. It does not confer upon you some magic quality that cannot be found anywhere else. What you're saying here is "Oh you can't really be brave and you can't really be tough if you weren't a soldier" and yeah thats really kind of bullshit dude. And frankly, given the military has a very strict application of the chain of command where following orders is a vital part of the training, I'd say you'd be probably actually be more vulnerable to the Imperius curse with that kind of mindset.
So sorry, but I don't think it matter in the slightest that Crouch wasn't a soldier. He still demonstrated exactly the kind of determination, resolve and drive that you think should should allow someone to shake off the Imperius curse...and he couldn't. Not completely anyway, and the effort all but broke him.

As I was saying before, it would take but one wizard illuminating the threat, and Grindelwald's stated objectives were enslaving muggles. Grindelwald doesn't want secrecy, and if it ever got to the point where he was going to make a major push that would eliminate all doubt as to the existence of wizards then the moral position to take is informing muggle authorities of the threat.

Whereby whatever information that can be provided, then go on to blunten any assault by wizards with a pre-emptive strike.

I mentioned one wizard telling all isn't going to accomplish anything now, why do you think it'll be easier in the 20s where there's far less mass media or ability to get his point across? Why do you keep operating under the assumption that one guy going "Hey I'm a wizard" is suddenly going to fill every muggle with the knowledge you have from reading the books? A wizard coming forward to try and warn people about the evil wizard trying to kill them all, be it Grindy or Voldy, is going to be written off as a hack showman at best and a dangerous lunatic at worst.

But if we assume that one wizard gets through to one general...what then? Launch a pre-emptive strike like you say? How? Against who? Most wizards have based themselves around major population centres like London or Paris, so you've got no chance or getting an any kind of attack near them approved. No-ones going to let you drop bombs on London because a wizard told you to, thats just mad

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

If bureaucracy was any good at actually stopping corruption or incompetence in a position then every politician mentioned in the Panama Papers would have had their careers ended. Yet they seem to be going strong. And I'm afraid I am going to have to mention Trump again, and how just one guy can suddenly mean all the rot starts coming forward.

Bureaucracy can and does protect you. For every dollar the public funds the IRS you get nine back. And these people aren't doing much more than following what is already pretty broken taxation laws. The nature of bureaucracy comes down to the fact that it is not a power unto itself. It's given power in same way anything is givn power, people invest themselves in it.

If bureaucracy can save you and your loved one's from facing a tyrannical boot of a wizard, damn straight people are going to invest power in it. It matters not the moral metrics by which this power is invested, both good or ill, but one thing that all bureaucracy has is that it grinds the masses into constructed traits that people can only but rebel against if theyso choose. But once again, it depends on how much people have invested into it.

The objective of any hypothetical 'Wizarpo' is less about getting all the wizards, and more about forcing them out of public life. It is literally about checkmating Grindelwald's public espoused ideas of ending wizard secrecy and punishing muggles for it for some reason.

Oh it has rules. And that rules is "The Imperius Curse is super hard to break". You seem to be under the assumption that just anyone could shrug it off so I'm highlighting just how tricky the series has demonstrated that to be.

But Harry Potter 'is just anyone' ... if Imperius was as easy as it were, itwouldn'[t face a litany of problems everytime it's brought up in the books or movies.

Okay, one person breaks the hold the Imperius Curse has. He starts babbling about wizards and magic, probably not in great state given what we've seen of people trying to break Imperius before...and promptly gets forcibly retired or packed off to an asylum. Because the things he's saying are insane. And the evil wizards just move on to curse his replacement. Because what else do you expect to happen in a scenario like that?

Do you actually read my posts?

they don't know its wizards. And everyone thinks wizards are fiction so why would they ever think it was wizards? Are you assuming Grindelwald also left a nice note at the scene of his crimes explaining who he was and exactly what was going on? You have a shit ton of civil unrest going on the 20s, its just going to pinned on, like, the bolsheviks or something

Once again, Grindelwald does not want secrecy. His stated goals are to end that secrecy.

Yes, but the point I'm making is that if you want to come out the shadows and dominate the Muggles you're going to want to neutralise their effectiveness in fighting back first. And by the time you do come out the shadows you're going to have infiltrated and assumed control of their governments before they actually realise whats going on. And they're not threatening those heads of state, they're not bribing them, they're not blackmailing them, they're placing them under magical, mostly unbreakable mind control. Not quite the same.

Okay, how exactly are you going to 'neutralize their effectiveness'? Do you know how the rich and powerful have taken over governments? With lobbyists. They don't need the Imperius curse, you just needan understanding of campaign donor laws. But then again it would be foolish as if to pretend that any of that is applicable when it is blatantly obvious and the only reason to do sois literally 'We want to rule the world'.

Wizards already 'rule the world' ... by remaining in the shadows. They go wherever they want, they do incredibly illegal things, none of them face any real substantive degree of punishment in a conventionally acceptable way for untold horrors they inflict on muggles repeatedly. None of them are hauled infront of the public by Interpol for crimes against humanity. They can literally press child soldiers to fight someone like a Voldemort.

I mean, think about it like this. Wizards kill many thousands across Europe. Terrorize muggles. How many of them actually brought to justice by muggles? None. They're effectively the arms manufacturers and their lobbyists in mundane reality, and yet somehow even worse because for all the families and friends of the ones that die at their hands never actually know why.

What more do they want from this life of zero responsibility and zero culpability?

This is why I say wizards are fucking idiots. Driven by ego and ego only, and muggles would not tolerate it the same way they do capitalist systems of iniquity.

And I have to ask what you think that one wizard is going to say or do to get everyone suddenly believing wizard-kind exists. Tell those heads of state he knows is under threat? Why should they believe him? Demonstrate some spells? Just going to think thats a trick. Humans largely don't believe magic actually exists, you have someone telling us they're a wizard we're just going to assume they're some David Copperfield wannabe

And? Wizards have plenty up their sleeve to convince muggles they'rea threat. The whole reason wizards desire secrecy in the first place and why Grindelwald wants to end it. That secrecy was not born out of 'oh, but muggles themselves maintain it'.

Sorry, but this is just your bias showing through. Being a soldier does not grant you +3 to your Wisdom and a resistance to psychic damage rolls. It does not confer upon you some magic quality that cannot be found anywhere else. What you're saying here is "Oh you can't really be brave and you can't really be tough if you weren't a soldier" and yeah thats really kind of bullshit dude. And frankly, given the military has a very strict application of the chain of command where following orders is a vital part of the training, I'd say you'd be probably actually be more vulnerable to the Imperius curse with that kind of mindset.
So sorry, but I don't think it matter in the slightest that Crouch wasn't a soldier. He still demonstrated exactly the kind of determination, resolve and drive that you think should should allow someone to shake off the Imperius curse...and he couldn't. Not completely anyway, and the effort all but broke him.

Neither does simply 'being magical' protect oneself from the Imperius curse. It is people irrespective with a 'strong will'. Also, the military doesn't want brainless people, they want people with initiative and personal drive. So ... you know, what were you saying about biases? Also, no, Barty Crouch Snr was a miserly bureaucrat. Old and cruel.

I mentioned one wizard telling all isn't going to accomplish anything now, why do you think it'll be easier in the 20s where there's far less mass media or ability to get his point across? Why do you keep operating under the assumption that one guy going "Hey I'm a wizard" is suddenly going to fill every muggle with the knowledge you have from reading the books? A wizard coming forward to try and warn people about the evil wizard trying to kill them all, be it Grindy or Voldy, is going to be written off as a hack showman at best and a dangerous lunatic at worst.

Grindelwald was defeated and imprisoned in 1945.

But if we assume that one wizard gets through to one general...what then? Launch a pre-emptive strike like you say? How? Against who? Most wizards have based themselves around major population centres like London or Paris, so you've got no chance or getting an any kind of attack near them approved. No-ones going to let you drop bombs on London because a wizard told you to, thats just mad

Anybody can die in a house fire, or a car accident, or a rare case of botulism. What? You think it's so hard to make a murder look like an accident or simply disappear a person? Wizards are fucking idiots. The books themselves illustrate that enough.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

Bureaucracy can and does protect you. For every dollar the public funds the IRS you get nine back. And these people aren't doing much more than following what is already pretty broken taxation laws. The nature of bureaucracy comes down to the fact that it is not a power unto itself. It's given power in same way anything is givn power, people invest themselves in it.

If bureaucracy can save you and your loved one's from facing a tyrannical boot of a wizard, damn straight people are going to invest power in it. It matters not the moral metrics by which this power is invested, both good or ill, but one thing that all bureaucracy has is that it grinds the masses into constructed traits that people can only but rebel against if theyso choose. But once again, it depends on how much people have invested into it.

Technically I get nothing from the IRS, since I'm not a US citizen, buts thats besides the point XD. Your second sentence makes my point for me; There are numerous loopholes and flaws within a bureaucratic system. What makes you think wizards deliberately infiltrating a government to control it couldn't use those themselves. Bureaucracy far more often defends the people running it rather than the people working under it

The objective of any hypothetical 'Wizarpo' is less about getting all the wizards, and more about forcing them out of public life. It is literally about checkmating Grindelwald's public espoused ideas of ending wizard secrecy and punishing muggles for it for some reason.

Except they're not in public life yet. Still staying secret. Your entire argument seems to constantly rely on every wizard being suddenly revealed and in the open with the muggles knowing all their secrets somehow, when my point is that assuming control of governments is the step that happens before that

But Harry Potter 'is just anyone' ... if Imperius was as easy as it were, itwouldn'[t face a litany of problems everytime it's brought up in the books or movies.

Yes, Harry Potter having protagonist powers is a point I raised earlier. You're agreeing with me that the Imperius is hard to break and can't be done by anyone but the mostest specialest. So there's going to be pretty much no muggles who stand a chance

Do you actually read my posts?

Yes, but like I said earlier you always seem to be assuming that wizards are now completely open about everything when my entire argument, from my first reply to you, is that this approach is Step One and occurs before that happens. So really the question is are you reading my posts?

Once again, Grindelwald does not want secrecy. His stated goals are to end that secrecy.

Yes, but not entirely. You know what else Grindy wants? Supremacy. He doesn't just want to be honest, he wants to be in charge. So why wouldn't he do everything in his power to gain that even if it meant staying secret a little longer?

Okay, how exactly are you going to 'neutralize their effectiveness'? Do you know how the rich and powerful have taken over governments? With lobbyists. They don't need the Imperius curse, you just needan understanding of campaign donor laws. But then again it would be foolish as if to pretend that any of that is applicable when it is blatantly obvious and the only reason to do sois literally 'We want to rule the world'.

Then use Imperius curse to control the lobbyists. Or just become lobbyists, its what the Malfoys have been doing with the Ministry of Magic. When my point is "control the government before you take yourselves out in the open" why does it matter how the end up controlling the government?

Wizards already 'rule the world' ... by remaining in the shadows. They go wherever they want, they do incredibly illegal things, none of them face any real substantive degree of punishment in a conventionally acceptable way for untold horrors they inflict on muggles repeatedly. None of them are hauled infront of the public by Interpol for crimes against humanity. They can literally press child soldiers to fight someone like a Voldemort.

I mean, think about it like this. Wizards kill many thousands across Europe. Terrorize muggles. How many of them actually brought to justice by muggles? None. They're effectively the arms manufacturers and their lobbyists in mundane reality, and yet somehow even worse because for all the families and friends of the ones that die at their hands never actually know why.

What more do they want from this life of zero responsibility and zero culpability?

Because they are culpable to their own Ministries for such abuses. You can argue about the legalities and ethics of the Ministries operating under their own rules if you wish but they do punish people for thing like terrorising muggles. The bad guy wizards would like to be free of even that, allowed to treat muggles with all the contempt they feel they deserve with actually zero culpability

And? Wizards have plenty up their sleeve to convince muggles they'rea threat. The whole reason wizards desire secrecy in the first place and why Grindelwald wants to end it. That secrecy was not born out of 'oh, but muggles themselves maintain it'.

I'm struggling to see how this answers my point. Yes, wizards have plenty of spells or bewitched artefacts that would make them a threat. But would you believe it if you were shown them? If you saw a youtube video of someone performing magic, would you think "OMG wizards are real!" or would you think "Neat trick, wonder how he did it?" If Penn and Teller came and told you they were in fact real wizards and all their tricks were real magic, would you actually believe them?

Neither does simply 'being magical' protect oneself from the Imperius curse. It is people irrespective with a 'strong will'. Also, the military doesn't want brainless people, they want people with initiative and personal drive. So ... you know, what were you saying about biases? Also, no, Barty Crouch Snr was a miserly bureaucrat. Old and cruel.

Yes, all that matters is the strong will. Thats...pretty much exactly the point I was making. But I'm backing that up by pointing out just how strong the will has to be. Barty Crouch fits every criteria you're insisting on, a man with enough conviction to sentence his own son to life imprisonment, enough drive to become a renowned judge and politician, enough ambition to almost become Minister for Magic. Dude manage to plan and prep the Quidditch World Cup, a massive operation of resources, manpower and spell power. You writing him off as a bureaucrat (incidentally, doesn't using that as a derogatory term sort of undermine your earlier point about how useful bureaucracy is and how it will protect people?) does the character a real disservice. And yet he still couldn't shake off the Imperius curse, and getting to the stages of breaking through it that he did manage nearly killed him. Why would a muggle with no idea of what was happening to him have any better of a chance?

Grindelwald was defeated and imprisoned in 1945.

...and? The Fantastic Beasts films from which we see him making his moves are set in the 20s. And while his defeat comes later, its not like media, communication and information sharing has advanced to the stage it is at, say, now.

Anybody can die in a house fire, or a car accident, or a rare case of botulism. What? You think it's so hard to make a murder look like an accident or simply disappear a person? Wizards are fucking idiots. The books themselves illustrate that enough.

My question remains: How are you going to be doing that? Who are you getting approval from to do that? Going to just strike out on your own, conduct operations against citizens of your own country with no-ones authority but your own? Yeah good luck not getting branded as a dangerous rogue for doing that, enjoy the consequences that brings