Fantasy RPGs: Why is it always the same?

[TheNamlessGuy]

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[Dr.Sean]

Maybe instead they were lumberjacks

It'd make sense for them to become lumberjacks because they like to press wild flowers and wear women's clothing.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I'm probably being dense here, but does GFS mean the same as high fantasy?

Not really GFS is the whole DnD as done by Ed Greenwood.
High Fantasy is just fantasy with no attept at realism and with a more epic and not gritty feel. So Narnia or possibly the John Carter series could qyalify as high fantasy, but they're both a long way from the GFS.

Now I know you are yanking my chain as there is no way that GFS can be an acronym of Forgotten Realms. Just tell me what it stands for or where you got it from dammit.

I sort of recognise it as being a sort of "Disneyfication" of fantasy by American authors after Tolkien.

 

[Axolotl]

Spoiler: Dragon Age minor spoiler for Shale inside

Shale was once a dwarf female.
Now THAT'S mixing things up!

Other than that I can't think of anything

Shapechanging Magic? In a fantasy setting? Surely not, why thats so polymorphic of them.

[Now I know you are yanking my chain as there is no way that GFS can be an acronym of Forgotten Realms. Just tell me what it stands for or where you got it from dammit.

I sort of recognise it as being a sort of "Disneyfication" of fantasy by American authors after Tolkien.

It stands for Generic Fantasy Setting. People say "Oh it's Tolkein" but they geneally have far more ion common with DnD and more specifically Forgotton Realms. Yeah it's mainly missing the large subtext of Tolkein (which has a rather nostalgic feeling to it), as well as the intended feel of early DnD (which was intended as a cross between Conan and a themepark funhouse).

Basically it's just superficial concepts watered down and uninteresting after extreme overuse.

 

[TheNamlessGuy]

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[Kurokami]

We have seen developers trying to duplicate teh WoW success with new fantasy MMORPGs and pretty much failing so now they are trying new things (super heros, futuristic shooters, ect). Maybe all they need to do is keep a solid foundation and mix up the lore. Its fantasy and made up so nothing would be considered "wrong", just different.

Superheroes aren't fictional enough to be considered fantasy?

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Yeah it's mainly missing the large subtext of Tolkein (which has a rather nostalgic feeling to it), as well as the intended feel of early DnD (which was intended as a cross between Conan and a themepark funhouse).

Tolkien has a certain depth to it but many game settings just feel like a sort off vague medieval/renaissance historical setting where you can have an adventure and anything goes within the genre conventions. I get more of a Tolkien vibe from things that Fantasy fans probably hate like Naruto.

 

[Jekken6]

Well, the Witcher uses some of those tropes, because, well, the books use those tropes.

 

[Alex_P]

I'm probably being dense here, but does GFS mean the same as high fantasy?

Not really GFS is the whole DnD as done by Ed Greenwood.
High Fantasy is just fantasy with no attept at realism and with a more epic and not gritty feel. So Narnia or possibly the John Carter series could qyalify as high fantasy, but they're both a long way from the GFS.

Genre definitions are always vague and tricky, but here's my reading on that...

I'd say the defining elements of "high fantasy" is a Campbellian (Joseph Campbell, not John W. Campbell) heroic quest and a struggle between Good and Evil. I say Good and Evil all capitalized-like because they're necessarily essentialized; they needn't be simple, though -- note how Lord of the Rings is all about temptation rather than just a story about the good guys stickin' it to an evil overlord.

John Carter is typically considered the archetype of the "sword-and-planet" style, a genre related to "sword-and-sorcery". Where high fantasy really revolves around moral struggle, sword-and-sorcery stories tend to emphasize personal passionate struggle -- bold but perhaps scary or ambiguous people, like Conan and Elric, doing violent and passionate things because they are naturally violent and passionate people. "Ego assertion" is the fancy term I've seen used sometimes.
 

Incidentally, I think the defining thing about Greenwood-style "generic" fantasy is that, well, there really isn't much going on theme-wise. Basically, you can read thousands of pages of stock fantasy novels or setting material without actually encountering any meaningful literary statement. It's all just kinda "fluff" for its own sake -- in other words, wank.

-- Alex

 

[Alex_P]

Yeah it's mainly missing the large subtext of Tolkein (which has a rather nostalgic feeling to it), as well as the intended feel of early DnD (which was intended as a cross between Conan and a themepark funhouse).

Tolkien has a certain depth to it but many game settings just feel like a sort off vague medieval/renaissance historical setting where you can have an adventure and anything goes within the genre conventions. I get more of a Tolkien vibe from things that Fantasy fans probably hate like Naruto.

Yeah, the worst thing about "generic" fantasy is that, despite being described as "Tolkienesque" and "medieval", it fails to actually capture the spirit of Tolkien's works and seems to be written with a fifth-grader's understanding of the Middle Ages.

The latter fault annoys me far more. In the context of games specifically (both video games and tabletop RPGs), I particularly hate the standard approach to "fantasy" combat. None of the coolest elements of historical European martial arts are represented: the subtleties of a few inches of reach, close-combat grappling, modular armor, training with a variety of weapons and choosing the right one for the job.

-- Alex

 

[Booze Zombie]

Really?
Some idiot at Blizzard thinks making a game with swords, armour and magic is "their style" because they're making a mint out of an extermly repetive game?

I don't get people.

People like different settings in games, if you don't like the settings, buy a different game.

 

[The_ModeRazor]

Heh, in TES, the dwarves were a kind of elves.
But I guess you're right, the archetype is rather stupid. They shud make up new races.
Like... Blagz or something.

 

[TotallyFake]

Yahtzee did mention that elves are as usual in love with trees and shooting bows. It would be cool to see fantasy become less rigid. Designers just need to stop being so scared of taking a chance. Yeah, some people will be upset, but f*** 'em.

And Dragon Age in particular was a drag. I should be able to make my own decisions in an rpg.

I don't think I've seen an RPG with quite the same level of choice as Dragon Age. The Fallout's and the classic Infinity Engine games are the only really comparable ones.

ANd why is everyone hating on the fixed enemies in Dragon Age? Every BioWare game going back 15 years had fixed enemies, random encounters are one of the staple criticisms of Final Fantasy? Is grinding that important in your games? Can't you just trust that the levelling curve is properly designed?

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Yeah, the worst thing about "generic" fantasy is that, despite being described as "Tolkienesque" and "medieval", it fails to actually capture the spirit of Tolkien's works and seems to be written with a fifth-grader's understanding of the Middle Ages.

My introduction to Fantasy was things handed down to me by my family with authors like Tolkien, Stephen Donaldson and Julian May. If fantasy has a problem with being generic to me then it is more of problem with gaming and game novels as there is some good fiction.

If they want to put some historical or ancient myth aspect in it they should research it well and make it intriguing. If they put magic in then they should try to have some sort of interesting magical system that isn't just, what should it cost someone to create a fireball?

The latter fault annoys me far more. In the context of games specifically (both video games and tabletop RPGs), I particularly hate the standard approach to "fantasy" combat. None of the coolest elements of historical European martial arts are represented: the subtleties of a few inches of reach, close-combat grappling, modular armor, training with a variety of weapons and choosing the right one for the job.

-- Alex

Have you tried Mount & Blade on the PC? It may be a little light on the role playing and isn't super realistic but it does try to have different weapon styles. Unsurprisingly, due to it's name, the styles that are most rewarding are things like horse archery and lances. It's the antidote to action games where you have a glowing weapon and mash buttons to pull of hundreds of flashy moves or a turn based game where you have options to attack, attack fast or use "weapon arts" to do some magical weapon attack.

 

[Alex_P]

My introduction to Fantasy was things handed down to me by my family with authors like Tolkien, Stephen Donaldson and Julian May. If fantasy has a problem with being generic to me then it is more of problem with gaming and game novels as there is some good fiction.

There's a lot of shit fiction, too, besides just game novels.

If they put magic in then they should try to have some sort of interesting magical system that isn't just, what should it cost someone to create a fireball?

I think the core problem is that "what should it cost" ends up being something boring like "a handful of bat poop" or "20 mana points". Narratively, there's no real cost here -- no years lost in study, no bargains struck with demons, no terrible price exacted by the Gods of the Mounds. (I'd even settle for "equivalent exchange". )

Have you tried Mount & Blade on the PC?

I've played it. The mechanics for swinging your weapon are rather simple, but the game really captures something about reach and footwork. The only thing comparable I can think of is lightsaber combat in the Jedi Knight games.

-- Alex

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Have you tried Mount & Blade on the PC?

I've played it. The mechanics for swinging your weapon are rather simple, but the game really captures something about reach and footwork. The only thing comparable I can think of is lightsaber combat in the Jedi Knight games.

-- Alex

The only thing that I have played that impressed me as a more technical sword fighting game is Kengo 2 on the PS2.