Fat Shaming.

[Maze1125]

Its rude, but is it any ruder than to expect everyone else to pay for the medical costs from her lifestyle choices through the NHS. The NHS is spending at least £5.1 billion a year on costs associated with weight. I'm a middle aged man and I don't claim to be a muscle bound adonis but I still have the same waist size that I did 20 years ago. It just takes a little self discipline, it's not food is heroin.

And how much is spend on smoking related health issues? On alcohol related ones? On people falling off ladders because they didn't check they were secure? On people who put their hand on a hob they knew was on? Not looking both ways before crossing the road? Etc.

We all make bad decisions, sometimes those decision result in injury, that's what the NHS is FOR. Fixing us when we fuck up.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question. Would you not say that a person continually making choices that harm himself and place a burden on others is acting in a shameful way? Are you saying it's bad to confront someone with that reality? Sorry there are certain wasteful, belligerent, hateful and ridiculous behaviors that are shameful and do not need to be coddled with a veneer of societal acceptance.

Oh please don't go trying to pretend you have good intentions. If you don't care how effective your help is then you aren't doing it to be helpful. It's some kind of buzzard pseudo-moral stance where you want to punish people.

I don't pretend I have good intentions. I don't want to punish anyone. I don't personally enjoy shaming people. It doesn't really work on me since my mother often used shaming as a method to try and improve my behavior, and shaming just has diminishing returns in reality. However I'm not arguing the morality or that shaming is the most efficient method of dealing with what is viewed as bad behavior. Just that... just about everyone uses it, and it has positive results for society a lot of the time. All the time? Of course not. Funnily enough you are attempting to shame me right now, by arguing that the only reason I believe this is because I'm a pseudo moralist who just gets off on punishing people. You are trying to bring me lower by making it clear to me that my attitude is to be disapproved of and that my true intentions are base and selfish. Maybe you are spot on in that assessment but regardless you seem to be in favor of shaming tactics but your only quibble is over the target of it.

You pretend to be worried about a problem. You then don't care if this doesn't help fix it.

Sure you want to punish people. There's two reasons you could have for wanting something shamed. To correct or to punish.

The point is it does not seem to in this case so to persist shows the true motive.

Also is there some apparatus behind me that said shaming is bad? Because I didn't. I also never suggested you were a problem to correct.

You were responding to my response to a post asking if shaming has ever been good.

I don't see any referee telling me I cannot also refer to your other post.

You also seem to be operating under an odd definition of shaming. The dictionary definition of shame being a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior. You are trying to impose on me a feeling of conducting wrong or foolish behavior by stating that I'm some kind of pseudo moralist who wants to punish people. I mean, I'd consider that to be pretty shameful if that's what I actually was.

Oh so you're just utterly missing the point that I never said shaming was wrong and are now imagining that I said I didn't tincidentally try to shame you by pointing out what you do?

Did imaginary SR say that shaming was wrong? It seems to be what you're talking about for some reason. Because I never said it was. I'm saying you pretend you're hhandling a problem with it. If anything I'd be ashamed about making so much up about what I said btw. It's a bit amazing to miss my point so hard. It's about the fake pretense you put up about fat acceptance being a problem that needs to be dealt with. It is but that has nothing to do with your motives as we can see.

You are tilting at windmills here. While my personal feelings on this matter are spelled out much earlier. My last chain of responses was in speaking to the idea that shaming has no value, and me contradicting it. Just because something is not the absolute most efficient method of reducing a behavior does not mean it does not have value. I recognize however that its something most humans in our culture due either consciously or unconsciously so like it or not its probably not something that is going to change.

Did imaginary Bat Vader, presumably from the same universe as imaginary SR, say shaming is terrible? Because I saw a question of whether it even works for this.

I realize you have some bizarre attachment to shaming but please do realize you have nothing to back you up except your desire to see others shamed.

Perhaps also to clarify my personal opinion so its completely off the table when further discussing the roll of shame and shaming in modern western culture, the people who left the cards were spiteful dick heads just looking to take out frustration on other people, but this does in anyway justify fat acceptance as a concept. If you are fat and can accept the consequences of being fat, than there is nothing wrong with that. Owning your decisions and your lifestyle is the most mature way of taking all this and if you do... fat shaming really shouldn't work anyway as shaming only works if you believe there is some truth to whats being said. Its the health at any size and BMI is oppression people that drive me up the wall because its a concerted effort of denial to preserve an idea that regardless of size there are no consequences for it. However... this is not the point of disucssion I really want to continue it's just a clarification of my personal thoughts main topic of this thread, which is the people leaving mean cards on the subway story.

Your theories on psychology are rather... well they have no basis in reality. People don't need to believe something is shameful to be ashamed due to the reactions people have. I realize some people like to divine truth out of nowhere but that's not how it works.

Like if you back off the insults and mischaracterizations we could maybe have a conversation here, but as it is I'm not particularly interested in continuing to talk to you. Thanks for the time.

Criticizing what you say isn't an insult. You seem to take offense easily, like taking me calling out apparent false concern with a problem as shaming and now criticism as insults. Feel free to bow out but please don't think I'll be fooled about the reasons.

 

[Coruptin]

Whenever this stuff happens do any of you guys ever marvel at how ingenious Washington was? I mean George Washington, the guy with like 30 goddam dicks. His warning, don't form parties, always rings in my head whenever I see groups arguing against each other like this. The way people ignore and misconstrue each other. How we're so entrenched in our ideas and refuse to give even the most superficial ground.

OT:
Being fat is by and large (b'dum tsh) unhealthy.
Making fun of fat people is being an asshole.
You're allowed to be fat or an asshole.
Justifying your asshole behavior with pretense of a moral highground is Captain Planet villain tier stupid/obviously evil.

 

[The Material Sheep]

Its rude, but is it any ruder than to expect everyone else to pay for the medical costs from her lifestyle choices through the NHS. The NHS is spending at least ?5.1 billion a year on costs associated with weight. I'm a middle aged man and I don't claim to be a muscle bound adonis but I still have the same waist size that I did 20 years ago. It just takes a little self discipline, it's not food is heroin.

And how much is spend on smoking related health issues? On alcohol related ones? On people falling off ladders because they didn't check they were secure? On people who put their hand on a hob they knew was on? Not looking both ways before crossing the road? Etc.

We all make bad decisions, sometimes those decision result in injury, that's what the NHS is FOR. Fixing us when we fuck up.

The argument would be that if you continue to fuck yourself up knowing that you will be taken care of and won't have to feel the full consequences of your actions, you are incentivizing people to take easier short term paths that will fuck you up in the long run. No one destroys their lungs with one cigarette. It's one thing for the tax payers to put down a social safety net for those who've had unfortunate and unforeseen things happen to them. Its another when someone continues an irresponsible behavior through out there life and then expects the state to come in a foot the bill later on. Its just not right for the people who took care of themselves and stayed healthy to be forced to take care of people who deliberately didn't. If someone willingly wants to help others like that, sure its no big deal but when you've involved the state you're involving the entirety of the tax paying body and that money has to be spent appropriately. Better it be used for people that had no, or very little hand in their injury or illness than people who cultivated it over an extended period. At the end of it though... doesn't justify idiots taking frustration out on random people in a subway.

 

[Lilani]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question. Would you not say that a person continually making choices that harm himself and place a burden on others is acting in a shameful way? Are you saying it's bad to confront someone with that reality? Sorry there are certain wasteful, belligerent, hateful and ridiculous behaviors that are shameful and do not need to be coddled with a veneer of societal acceptance.

I am overweight. I can also run over 3 kilometers in 25 minutes, as I do so 3-4 times per week, weather permitting. I've lost 12 pounds since July, and once I shake off the couple of pounds I gained over the holidays I hope to bring that number to 15 by new years. Being young and being a female has given me some serious body image and shame issues.

In these last several months of running and finding new eating habits, I've discovered at least one source of my motivation. It's pride. The days I drag myself out of bed at 5:30 am to run for 25 minutes before getting ready to work whether it is 80 degrees or 20 are the days I feel the best about myself. At times I get into little self-pity spirals, where I eat and don't get out because for some reason or another I don't feel worth it. But on the days I do feel worth it and can look at my stomach rolls and thunder thighs are the days I do the best for myself.

The problem with fat shaming is that it is essentially someone being an asshole and covering it up with a veneer of "concern" for the person's health. But in reality, nobody has ever run a mile or lost a single pound out of shame, or self-loathing, or out of a desire to earn the respect of somebody who won't respect them at their heaviest. Personal health is a lifelong journey that never really ends, and everybody is at different places for different reasons. If you watch TV shows like the Biggest Loser, you'll quickly see that the people who succeed are driven by hope, pride, happiness, and love. Love for others, and most importantly love for themselves.

If you can't respect somebody because of where they are in their personal health journey, whether they're on the wagon, falling off, or have no desire to be on it whatsoever, then that's your prerogative. But don't try to pretend it's anything but spiteful prejudice on your part, and don't try to pretend being negative or hateful toward them is going to be helpful. Because I can absolutely promise you from personal experience that it won't. They may not be doing anything to improve their health, but don't convince yourself that by being disgusted by them you're doing any better than them.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Its rude, but is it any ruder than to expect everyone else to pay for the medical costs from her lifestyle choices through the NHS. The NHS is spending at least ?5.1 billion a year on costs associated with weight. I'm a middle aged man and I don't claim to be a muscle bound adonis but I still have the same waist size that I did 20 years ago. It just takes a little self discipline, it's not food is heroin.

And how much is spend on smoking related health issues? On alcohol related ones? On people falling off ladders because they didn't check they were secure? On people who put their hand on a hob they knew was on? Not looking both ways before crossing the road? Etc.

We all make bad decisions, sometimes those decision result in injury, that's what the NHS is FOR. Fixing us when we fuck up.

The argument would be that if you continue to fuck yourself up knowing that you will be taken care of and won't have to feel the full consequences of your actions, you are incentivizing people to take easier short term paths that will fuck you up in the long run. No one destroys their lungs with one cigarette. It's one thing for the tax payers to put down a social safety net for those who've had unfortunate and unforeseen things happen to them. Its another when someone continues an irresponsible behavior through out there life and then expects the state to come in a foot the bill later on. Its just not right for the people who took care of themselves and stayed healthy to be forced to take care of people who deliberately didn't. If someone willingly wants to help others like that, sure its no big deal but when you've involved the state you're involving the entirety of the tax paying body and that money has to be spent appropriately. Better it be used for people that had no, or very little hand in their injury or illness than people who cultivated it over an extended period. At the end of it though... doesn't justify idiots taking frustration out on random people in a subway.

No more unfair than someone doing something stupid and everyone not an idiot having to pay with it, like some one hurting themselves while drunk. Be it immediate or long term it doesn't matter

 

[The Material Sheep]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question. Would you not say that a person continually making choices that harm himself and place a burden on others is acting in a shameful way? Are you saying it's bad to confront someone with that reality? Sorry there are certain wasteful, belligerent, hateful and ridiculous behaviors that are shameful and do not need to be coddled with a veneer of societal acceptance.

I am overweight. I can also run over 3 kilometers in 25 minutes, as I do so 3-4 times per week, weather permitting. I've lost 12 pounds since July, and once I shake off the couple of pounds I gained over the holidays I hope to bring that number to 15 by new years. Being young and being a female has given me some serious body image and shame issues.

In these last several months of running and finding new eating habits, I've discovered at least one source of my motivation. It's pride. The days I drag myself out of bed at 5:30 am to run for 25 minutes before getting ready to work whether it is 80 degrees or 20 are the days I feel the best about myself. At times I get into little self-pity spirals, where I eat and don't get out because for some reason or another I don't feel worth it. But on the days I do feel worth it and can look at my stomach rolls and thunder thighs are the days I do the best for myself.

The problem with fat shaming is that it is essentially someone being an asshole and covering it up with a veneer of "concern" for the person's health. But in reality, nobody has ever run a mile or lost a single pound out of shame, or self-loathing, or out of a desire to earn the respect of somebody who won't respect them at their heaviest. Personal health is a lifelong journey that never really ends, and everybody is at different places for different reasons. If you watch TV shows like the Biggest Loser, you'll quickly see that the people who succeed are driven by hope, pride, happiness, and love. Love for others, and most importantly love for themselves.

If you can't respect somebody because of where they are in their personal health journey, whether they're on the wagon, falling off, or have no desire to be on it whatsoever, then that's your prerogative. But don't try to pretend it's anything but spiteful prejudice on your part, and don't try to pretend being negative or hateful toward them is going to be helpful. Because I can absolutely promise you from personal experience that it won't. They may not be doing anything to improve their health, but don't convince yourself that by being disgusted by them you're doing any better than them.

Who said disgusted? Who said spiteful prejudice? I don't know who you are arguing with because that wasn't anything I said. To out and out say that no one was ever motivated by being made aware of foolish or wrong behavior and attempt to correct said behavior, you are making huge generalizations that will not stand up to test.

Did I personally say the very trait of being over weight was shameful? No. I have no ONCE said that through out all of this thread, and specifically stated points against it time and time again. There is so much arguing past the point I was making its ridiculous.

 

[SweetShark]

Whenever this stuff happens do any of you guys ever marvel at how ingenious Washington was? I mean George Washington, the guy with like 30 goddam dicks. His warning, don't form parties, always rings in my head whenever I see groups arguing against each other like this. The way people ignore and misconstrue each other. How we're so entrenched in our ideas and refuse to give even the most superficial ground.

OT:
Being fat is by and large (b'dum tsh) unhealthy.
Making fun of fat people is being an asshole.
You're allowed to be fat or an asshole.
Justifying your asshole behavior with pretense of a moral highground is Captain Planet villain tier stupid/obviously evil.

A Captain Planet villain which guide fat people in suicide, sound hilarious.

Also being fat doesn't mean you are ugly. I am beatiful as f*ck man.
Like I always say to all "Each girl have her own unique beaty".
Sound cliche, but this is the truth.

 

[SweetShark]

Has shaming people ever actually helped anyone in the long run or at all? I feel like shaming does more harm than good.

Well if you're doing something that is shameful perhaps someone addressing it is not out of the question.

Is being a virgin shameful? Bad in some way? If not then why does "virgin shaming" exist?

In our days yes. Because lets face it, is "cool" to get laid earlier that the other nerd people.
Then of course a baby get borned and none know how this happened. But if you are lucky, then you can still make fan of the other virgins!
But yeah, in everything is an aspect of shaming. Shaming for playing videogames, reading sci-fi books, playing card games, reading comics, watching cartoons, being fat, be thin, be virgin, being whore, being different, BEING DIFFERENT!!!
Heck, in Greece in the old years if a woman wanted to become an actor, they call her immidiadly a whore...and sadly I know a specific woman get shot cause of that from her own brother.

 

[SweetShark]

This seems terribly Un-British. Usually the English are much more polite and clever in their rudeness.

I would have expected something on the card more like:

"Begging your pardon, Old Bean, but did you feel the train car you're in sink about three inches? There's an ever so strong possibility that it was due to the load it was carrying. And, I say, but your enormous girth could be the very thing contributing to that load. Perhaps if you ate, say, just one bag of Fish 'n' Chips for lunch instead of three..."

Yeah, it's cowardly and rude. But you gotta laugh...

And this is another problem with this kind of satire when you insulting someone.
If for example THIS was the real card of Fat Shaming, then this Thread wouldn't be existed.
And yes, I am not denying I don't have a problem with that, but at some point when you laugh with these jokes again and again in a specific number of time, you will ask the person who satire "ok dude seriously stop making fun of my fat belly. It was funny at first, but now is annoying".

 

[chikusho]

Yeah that's pretty dickish.

On the other hand, I wonder how people would react if it was being done to smokers. Say what you will, but with the cost obesity has on the health care system being overweight should be seen in the same light as smoking, especially given the fact that in 99% of cases it is in fact a choice on the part of the person who is overweight due to their lifestyle habits.

So, what you're saying is that the overweight, obese and smokers should be applauded for the fact that they are cheaper in terms of health care than the rest of the population?
Great!

Its rude, but is it any ruder than to expect everyone else to pay for the medical costs from her lifestyle choices through the NHS. The NHS is spending at least ?5.1 billion a year on costs associated with weight. I'm a middle aged man and I don't claim to be a muscle bound adonis but I still have the same waist size that I did 20 years ago. It just takes a little self discipline, it's not food is heroin.

So what you're saying is basically that we REALLY should shame healthy, normal weighted people for hiking up the costs of health care? Living healthy is also a personal choice, so why should these people expect everyone else to pay for the medical cost of keeping them alive until 90?

 

[Chris Moses]

All I have to say is...

Cry and lament at my unabashed corpulence puny mortal! All you can do about it is hand out your stupid little cards and run away and cry...

 

[Zontar]

Yeah that's pretty dickish.

On the other hand, I wonder how people would react if it was being done to smokers. Say what you will, but with the cost obesity has on the health care system being overweight should be seen in the same light as smoking, especially given the fact that in 99% of cases it is in fact a choice on the part of the person who is overweight due to their lifestyle habits.

So, what you're saying is that the overweight, obese and smokers should be applauded for the fact that they are cheaper in terms of health care than the rest of the population?
Great!

Why would I say they should be applauded for the exact oppose reason then what is actually the case? People who are overweight, obese and smokers aren't cheaper for health care then the rest of the population, they're more expensive, in some cases MUCH more expensive. It's getting to the point that in the US and other Western nations it's costing literally billions each year in spending that otherwise wouldn't be needed.

 

[chikusho]

Yeah that's pretty dickish.

On the other hand, I wonder how people would react if it was being done to smokers. Say what you will, but with the cost obesity has on the health care system being overweight should be seen in the same light as smoking, especially given the fact that in 99% of cases it is in fact a choice on the part of the person who is overweight due to their lifestyle habits.

So, what you're saying is that the overweight, obese and smokers should be applauded for the fact that they are cheaper in terms of health care than the rest of the population?
Great!

Why would I say they should be applauded for the exact oppose reason then what is actually the case? People who are overweight, obese and smokers aren't cheaper for health care then the rest of the population, they're more expensive, in some cases MUCH more expensive. It's getting to the point that in the US and other Western nations it's costing literally billions each year in spending that otherwise wouldn't be needed.

That's where you're wrong. It's actually quite the oppossite. The lifetime cost of health care is higher for healthy people than for obese people/smokers for the simple reason that obese people and smokers have a shorter lifespan. Healthy people have a higher chance of reaching an age where their bodies start to break down due to old age and they can't take care of themselves any longer. Providing health care for these people over a longer period of time is much more expensive as a result.

 

[Zen Bard]

This seems terribly Un-British. Usually the English are much more polite and clever in their rudeness.

I would have expected something on the card more like:

"Begging your pardon, Old Bean, but did you feel the train car you're in sink about three inches? There's an ever so strong possibility that it was due to the load it was carrying. And, I say, but your enormous girth could be the very thing contributing to that load. Perhaps if you ate, say, just one bag of Fish 'n' Chips for lunch instead of three..."

Yeah, it's cowardly and rude. But you gotta laugh...

And this is another problem with this kind of satire when you insulting someone.
If for example THIS was the real card of Fat Shaming, then this Thread wouldn't be existed.
And yes, I am not denying I don't have a problem with that, but at some point when you laugh with these jokes again and again in a specific number of time, you will ask the person who satire "ok dude seriously stop making fun of my fat belly. It was funny at first, but now is annoying".

I'm not entirely sure what your point is. But judging from your recent posts here, you seem to be taking this thread entirely too personally.

If you truly get "satire", you'd understand that I'm riffing on the British and their unfailing politeness. It's amusing to me that someone would leave a card this rude in London of all places.

The "joke" I'm laughing at here is the sheer idiocy of "fat shaming" cards. I find that so mind-numbingly ridiculous, it's funny.

Now if you decided to take my post personally, that's on you.

 

[Zontar]

That's where you're wrong. It's actually quite the oppossite. The lifetime cost of health care is higher for healthy people than for obese people/smokers for the simple reason that obese people and smokers have a shorter lifespan. Healthy people have a higher chance of reaching an age where their bodies start to break down due to old age and they can't take care of themselves any longer. Providing health care for these people over a longer period of time is much more expensive as a result.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that the medical costs of treatment for people who have obesity or smoking related problems cost much more on a per-visit basis, and they also tend to require medical attention more frequently then people who are healthy.

The idea that healthy people cost the health care system more is categorically wrong, which is why all studies into the matter have shown that, as should be obvious, having medical conditions that are massively detrimental to one's health cost more then not having said conditions.

 

[SweetShark]

This seems terribly Un-British. Usually the English are much more polite and clever in their rudeness.

I would have expected something on the card more like:

"Begging your pardon, Old Bean, but did you feel the train car you're in sink about three inches? There's an ever so strong possibility that it was due to the load it was carrying. And, I say, but your enormous girth could be the very thing contributing to that load. Perhaps if you ate, say, just one bag of Fish 'n' Chips for lunch instead of three..."

Yeah, it's cowardly and rude. But you gotta laugh...

And this is another problem with this kind of satire when you insulting someone.
If for example THIS was the real card of Fat Shaming, then this Thread wouldn't be existed.
And yes, I am not denying I don't have a problem with that, but at some point when you laugh with these jokes again and again in a specific number of time, you will ask the person who satire "ok dude seriously stop making fun of my fat belly. It was funny at first, but now is annoying".

I'm not entirely sure what your point is. But judging from your recent posts here, you seem to be taking this thread entirely too personally.

If you truly get "satire", you'd understand that I'm riffing on the British and their unfailing politeness. It's amusing to me that someone would leave a card this rude in London of all places.

The "joke" I'm laughing at here is the sheer idiocy of "fat shaming" cards. I find that so mind-numbingly ridiculous, it's funny.

Now if you decided to take my post personally, that's on you.

Indeed. I am a fat person even when I was younger and I had always problem with other kids making fun of me all the freaking time. But at some point they stopped because there wasn't any point anymore: They didn't "broke" me fast enough to care for long time.
Lets pretend for example my head is a giant container which every time someone insult me feel it with sh*t little by little. At some point if the continuously flow of sh*t feel the whole container, the sh*t will come out.
Guess who will be the unlucky one who will get showered with these sh*ts?

For the real card itself, I don't care, because it isn't direct for me. And yes, I didn't get the joke you said, so I am sorry I sound weird.
I am trying to make fun as well the fact all the fat people are ugly. Seriously, I am handsome.

 

[cthulhuspawn82]

If fat shaming actually helped fat people wise up then you could at least write it off as "tough love". But this kind of thing never works. Telling a fat person to stop overeating is like telling a schizophrenic to stop seeing his imaginary friends. You may know the facts: Lack of exercise does not make you fat, and 600 calories of grilled chicken will make you fatter than 500 calories of cupcakes. But fat people wont believe that. Maybe its stubbornness or maybe its a deeper mental problem. Either way, we need to realize that while everyone is physically capable of losing weight, many aren't mentally capable of doing it.

 

[chikusho]

That's where you're wrong. It's actually quite the oppossite. The lifetime cost of health care is higher for healthy people than for obese people/smokers for the simple reason that obese people and smokers have a shorter lifespan. Healthy people have a higher chance of reaching an age where their bodies start to break down due to old age and they can't take care of themselves any longer. Providing health care for these people over a longer period of time is much more expensive as a result.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that the medical costs of treatment for people who have obesity or smoking related problems cost much more on a per-visit basis, and they also tend to require medical attention more frequently then people who are healthy.

The idea that healthy people cost the health care system more is categorically wrong, which is why all studies into the matter have shown that, as should be obvious, having medical conditions that are massively detrimental to one's health cost more then not having said conditions.

Right, obese people and smokers have a higher cost of health care per year of life. That much is obvious. But, since that life is shorter the net cost is lower than that of healthy people. That much is equally obvious.
On average, the majority of health-related costs are accrued at the end of your life. About a third of an average persons lifetime health care costs are accrued during middle age. About half of total health care costs are accrued during the senior years. The math is simple - live longer, cost more. Live shorter, cost less.

If obesity was cured and everyone stopped smoking, yes, that would decrease health care costs in the short term, for about an estimated 15 years. And then the cost would start rising dramatically as these people start to grow old and suffer from age-related illnesses and need more care on a more constant basis.

Basically, the health care cost argument is bullshit. Looking at the data, healthy people cost more during their lifetime. Escpecially women, since they live longer on average. And as such, healthy people (or maybe just the elderly ladies?) should logically be the ones picking up a larger part of the tab for the unhealthy people. But since that's obviously ridiculous, the best thing to do is quit using the economic reasoning altogether and tackle obesity from other, more relevant and actually verifiable perspectives.