Feds are reportedly abducting people in portland

[Agema]

Hey dude, once someone actually comes up with a new system that works, I'm all ears.

In practice, all countries have a mixed economy.

It is easy to imagine a world where slightly more care and attention is paid to the most vulnerable in society. The argument against is usually that it slows economic growth. Care for the vulnerable generally means tax and regulations, but global capitalists tend to prefer low tax, low regulation systems so they can be less inclined to invest in such countries. Thus countries begin a "race to the bottom" to make themselves attractive. Even where one country may be inclined to have high social protections, the perceived threat of being outcompeted and becoming poorer relative to their neighbours is a problem. How true this really is, I wouldn't like to say. In the long run (like 20-30 years), to compare two countries of roughly similar size and position but high tax or low tax (e.g. France v Germany, Denmark v. Netherlands), I'm not sure you'd see much difference.

The USA however is mostly growing faster than the EU. This is often touted as superiority of the low tax system - but the USA is in a very different position compared to the EU in many ways, and economic growth depends on a vast number of other factors than tax and regulations. The EU is fragmented politically and economically in a way the USA isn't; the USA may benefit from considerably easier access to current fast-growing markets (the far east) than the EU, and so on.

What I certainly think is that this low tax, low regulation system is highly beneficial to the rich, to ensure that they benefit most from economic growth. Whether it's true, or to what extent it is true that low-tax low-regulation systems are better for raw GDP growth, I think this is very much a secondary concern in the political debate, and sides are actually more motivated by distribution across society.

 

[Worgen]

In practice, all countries have a mixed economy.

It is easy to imagine a world where slightly more care and attention is paid to the most vulnerable in society. The argument against is usually that it slows economic growth. Care for the vulnerable generally means tax and regulations, but global capitalists tend to prefer low tax, low regulation systems so they can be less inclined to invest in such countries. Thus countries begin a "race to the bottom" to make themselves attractive. Even where one country may be inclined to have high social protections, the perceived threat of being outcompeted and becoming poorer relative to their neighbours is a problem. How true this really is, I wouldn't like to say. In the long run (like 20-30 years), to compare two countries of roughly similar size and position but high tax or low tax (e.g. France v Germany, Denmark v. Netherlands), I'm not sure you'd see much difference.

The USA however is mostly growing faster than the EU. This is often touted as superiority of the low tax system - but the USA is in a very different position compared to the EU in many ways, and economic growth depends on a vast number of other factors than tax and regulations. The EU is fragmented politically and economically in a way the USA isn't; the USA may benefit from considerably easier access to current fast-growing markets (the far east) than the EU, and so on.

What I certainly think is that this low tax, low regulation system is highly beneficial to the rich, to ensure that they benefit most from economic growth. Whether it's true, or to what extent it is true that low-tax low-regulation systems are better for raw GDP growth, I think this is very much a secondary concern in the political debate, and sides are actually more motivated by distribution across society.

Really a well regulated capitalist market works pretty damn well, but here in the states republicans don't want the well regulated part, they prefer no regulation and just letting business do pretty much what it wants.

 

[Revnak]

Times remain fun in Portland

 

[Revnak]

Literally that entire last part of the quote in my previous post about introducing community policing, restructuring police funding to use some of it for services such as social workers instead, increasing federal standards for receiving funds, and increasing investigations into improper actions. I was going to re-quote it, but it would put me over the post character limit.

From a speech this time:


Again, feel free to say he doesn't go far enough. There's plenty of room to disagree and discuss which policies will have the most effect. However, to make the claim that he's pulling a "this is fine" meme is to ignore reality.

Once again has fuck all to do with protest suppression. Community policing is just a new buzzword for these guys to call on and fail to implement because it’s impossible to enforce (under the current liberal framework) and police stations and unions won’t do it. They’ll hire who they want then claim to be participating in their community by doing drug war shows at the nicer schools and having the police chief do some open zoom calls. They’ll do an internal investigation and rule that they did a great job. The National oversight commission will be staffed with the same thick necked motherfuckers that have been out on the streets beating people in Portland. They’ll talk about how they already ban chokeholds unless the officer feels their life is threatened (read as always). It’s fucking theater. Meaningless theater. All while people are out in my streets risking their fucking lives over this issue and he does not fucking care, and in fact wants those people to be in jail. Biden hates me and mine. Why should I appreciate him in the slightest?

 

[Revnak]

The cops are still doing insane shit in Portland btw

 

[Revnak]

So does all this just not matter to y’all anymore? The regular cops are still out here fucking people up every night, but now that they’re not DHS you don’t care? This is precisely why liberalism is so sterile. So long as the people doing abuse file the proper paperwork, it’s fine. This is what 1984 was actually fucking about, the legitimization of abuse because the authority to perform it is built through obfuscating organizations who announce to you over an LRAD that their beating you is legal and you must stay off the road and on a non-existent sidewalk. The immaterial nature of it all, the fact that you’re fine with POLICE doing this but not DHS, their authority to do this being built on empty legal arguments appealing to vague language on mere paper, this is the sterility of the liberal paradigm. It cannot, will not respond to the reality of this scenario, only the imagined fable that is captured by it. But there are real human being “playing the part” for you and our uncaring politicians, real lives are lost so your Shakespearean tragedy can take place. How hollow it all is that acting all this out so you can feel you cheered on the right side is all that will likely amount of this suffering, the reality of police abuse and human suffering evading us all and in its place some sick ritual of repentance. Some day you’ll all remember Ted Wheeler as a man who suffered for his city when he steps onto some national stage and I’ll just laugh. That’s all any of this will amount to. Theater for a disinterested audience who cares only about the cleansing of their own souls.

 

[Trunkage]

So does all this just not matter to y’all anymore? The regular cops are still out here fucking people up every night, but now that they’re not DHS you don’t care? This is precisely why liberalism is so sterile. So long as the people doing abuse file the proper paperwork, it’s fine. This is what 1984 was actually fucking about, the legitimization of abuse because the authority to perform it is built through obfuscating organizations who announce to you over an LRAD that their beating you is legal and you must stay off the road and on a non-existent sidewalk. The immaterial nature of it all, the fact that you’re fine with POLICE doing this but not DHS, their authority to do this being built on empty legal arguments appealing to vague language on mere paper, this is the sterility of the liberal paradigm. It cannot, will not respond to the reality of this scenario, only the imagined fable that is captured by it. But there are real human being “playing the part” for you and our uncaring politicians, real lives are lost so your Shakespearean tragedy can take place. How hollow it all is that acting all this out so you can feel you cheered on the right side is all that will likely amount of this suffering, the reality of police abuse and human suffering evading us all and in its place some sick ritual of repentance. Some day you’ll all remember Ted Wheeler as a man who suffered for his city when he steps onto some national stage and I’ll just laugh. That’s all any of this will amount to. Theater for a disinterested audience who cares only about the cleansing of their own souls.

Personally? I got sick and tired of people justifying police brutality over the last month. I just stopped talking about it because none of THAT makes any sense to me. I literally can’t understand how some people were raised in the west and still think like that. I don’t know why they want their country to turn into Iran or NK but here we are. The absolute hatred spewed at BLM (even on this forum which is minor compared to what out there) for existing... I need a break.

Sorry for not having your back when your literal life is at stake

 

[Zeke davis]

So does all this just not matter to y’all anymore? The regular cops are still out here fucking people up every night, but now that they’re not DHS you don’t care? This is precisely why liberalism is so sterile. So long as the people doing abuse file the proper paperwork, it’s fine. This is what 1984 was actually fucking about, the legitimization of abuse because the authority to perform it is built through obfuscating organizations who announce to you over an LRAD that their beating you is legal and you must stay off the road and on a non-existent sidewalk. The immaterial nature of it all, the fact that you’re fine with POLICE doing this but not DHS, their authority to do this being built on empty legal arguments appealing to vague language on mere paper, this is the sterility of the liberal paradigm. It cannot, will not respond to the reality of this scenario, only the imagined fable that is captured by it. But there are real human being “playing the part” for you and our uncaring politicians, real lives are lost so your Shakespearean tragedy can take place. How hollow it all is that acting all this out so you can feel you cheered on the right side is all that will likely amount of this suffering, the reality of police abuse and human suffering evading us all and in its place some sick ritual of repentance. Some day you’ll all remember Ted Wheeler as a man who suffered for his city when he steps onto some national stage and I’ll just laugh. That’s all any of this will amount to. Theater for a disinterested audience who cares only about the cleansing of their own souls.

There are plenty of reasons why people in an internet forum don't post on a certain topic. It's better to ask than to assume.
I can't help but feel that your post is still applicable to the discourse at large and for that you have my condolences. It's a real fucking shame that people are trying to push this to the side.

You might have posted this already but any local charities you can link to?

 

[Buyetyen]

So does all this just not matter to y’all anymore? The regular cops are still out here fucking people up every night, but now that they’re not DHS you don’t care? This is precisely why liberalism is so sterile. So long as the people doing abuse file the proper paperwork, it’s fine. This is what 1984 was actually fucking about, the legitimization of abuse because the authority to perform it is built through obfuscating organizations who announce to you over an LRAD that their beating you is legal and you must stay off the road and on a non-existent sidewalk. The immaterial nature of it all, the fact that you’re fine with POLICE doing this but not DHS, their authority to do this being built on empty legal arguments appealing to vague language on mere paper, this is the sterility of the liberal paradigm. It cannot, will not respond to the reality of this scenario, only the imagined fable that is captured by it. But there are real human being “playing the part” for you and our uncaring politicians, real lives are lost so your Shakespearean tragedy can take place. How hollow it all is that acting all this out so you can feel you cheered on the right side is all that will likely amount of this suffering, the reality of police abuse and human suffering evading us all and in its place some sick ritual of repentance. Some day you’ll all remember Ted Wheeler as a man who suffered for his city when he steps onto some national stage and I’ll just laugh. That’s all any of this will amount to. Theater for a disinterested audience who cares only about the cleansing of their own souls.

Much like Trunkage I'm actually considering taking a break from the news media for a week because I'm fucking exhausted. I've had several panic attacks this week alone.

 

[Revnak]

Personally? I got sick and tired of people justifying police brutality over the last month. I just stopped talking about it because none of THAT makes any sense to me. I literally can’t understand how some people were raised in the west and still think like that. I don’t know why they want their country to turn into Iran or NK but here we are. The absolute hatred spewed at BLM (even on this forum which is minor compared to what out there) for existing... I need a break.

Sorry for not having your back when your literal life is at stake

There are plenty of reasons why people in an internet forum don't post on a certain topic. It's better to ask than to assume.
I can't help but feel that your post is still applicable to the discourse at large and for that you have my condolences. It's a real fucking shame that people are trying to push this to the side.

You might have posted this already but any local charities you can link to?

Much like Trunkage I'm actually considering taking a break from the news media for a week because I'm fucking exhausted. I've had several panic attacks this week alone.

Thanks. Apologies if the rant came off as too lecturing, I’m just a profoundly cynical guy sometimes. I’ll add that I’ve not personally found myself in much danger, while I do, I suppose, “identify” with the city of Portland I live a decent drive away so I can afford rent, and driving home at 3am with tires slashed by the police is unwise, though I’ve been to several protests in my town and others. As for charities, one can always find a bail fund (that’s what I’ve done), though if you’re interested in supporting some of the more proactive groups out of Portland there’s always wall of moms (not sure about the organization for them) or Revolution Ribs (no longer in Portland due to a conflict with a former member) I know Bellingcat supports one of the journalist teams there, as well as many of the groups Riot Ribs chose to divide up their original donations due to feeling that money should stay in Portland (thread on that linked below). Medics are also always needing money to help out, so donations there would likely go far.
Edit: oh, actually I think there’s some group like Portland Lawyers Guild or something, a union of legal observers including a lot of law students that have been around. They’re also an excellent group to my knowledge.

 

[SupahEwok]

So does all this just not matter to y’all anymore? The regular cops are still out here fucking people up every night, but now that they’re not DHS you don’t care? This is precisely why liberalism is so sterile. So long as the people doing abuse file the proper paperwork, it’s fine. This is what 1984 was actually fucking about, the legitimization of abuse because the authority to perform it is built through obfuscating organizations who announce to you over an LRAD that their beating you is legal and you must stay off the road and on a non-existent sidewalk. The immaterial nature of it all, the fact that you’re fine with POLICE doing this but not DHS, their authority to do this being built on empty legal arguments appealing to vague language on mere paper, this is the sterility of the liberal paradigm. It cannot, will not respond to the reality of this scenario, only the imagined fable that is captured by it. But there are real human being “playing the part” for you and our uncaring politicians, real lives are lost so your Shakespearean tragedy can take place. How hollow it all is that acting all this out so you can feel you cheered on the right side is all that will likely amount of this suffering, the reality of police abuse and human suffering evading us all and in its place some sick ritual of repentance. Some day you’ll all remember Ted Wheeler as a man who suffered for his city when he steps onto some national stage and I’ll just laugh. That’s all any of this will amount to. Theater for a disinterested audience who cares only about the cleansing of their own souls.

What else is there to say that hasn't been said?

 

[Revnak]

What else is there to say that hasn't been said?

The new brutality carried out by the police every night, for one thing. I honestly can find so much worth talking about every night of protests.

 

[SupahEwok]

The new brutality carried out by the police every night, for one thing. I honestly can find so much worth talking about every night of protests.

I'm not there with you, I can't say anything. I can read headline after headline of the various ways police are beating people and abusing their rights. How many new ways can I phrase that I disapprove vehemently? The conversation is dead here because everybody has had their say. I'm not telling you to move on. I'm not saying we've moved on. But how many times do the same people need to say the same things in the same environment to the same people?

 

[Revnak]

I'm not there with you, I can't say anything. I can read headline after headline of the various ways police are beating people and abusing their rights. How many new ways can I phrase that I disapprove vehemently? The conversation is dead here because everybody has had their say. I'm not telling you to move on. I'm not saying we've moved on. But how many times do the same people need to say the same things in the same environment to the same people?

Until something actually changes
Edit: I’d also point out that suddenly deciding to stop caring as soon as the most surface level part of the problem goes away to turn it into the perfect ideological fable is the thing I was most mad about and is what makes it impossible to change anything.

 

[Zeke davis]

Until something actually changes

Posting isn't by itself praxis and the exhaustion factor isn't an thing you can just motivate out of.
I'll thumbs up and try to make my own contributions but there's only so much this place can you for ya.

Also i donated to the guild.

 

[Revnak]

Posting isn't by itself praxis and the exhaustion factor isn't an thing you can just motivate out of.
I'll thumbs up and try to make my own contributions but there's only so much this place can you for ya.

Also i donated to the guild.

The lawyers guild is probably an excellent choice for proactive stuff, yeah. Not so much saying posting is praxis as saying that just moving on makes change impossible. Much as the Syrian Civil War, the Iraq War, the War in Afghanistan, the genocide of the Uighurs, Hong Kong protests, etc, all continue despite our ignoring them, so too does the violence by police. Finding your moral answer that soothes your soul doesn’t change it.

 

[SupahEwok]

Finding your moral answer that soothes your soul doesn’t change it.

I'm not telling you to move on. I'm not saying we've moved on. But how many times do the same people need to say the same things in the same environment to the same people?

 

[Revnak]

The Police tonight decided that the crowd was there to burn the precinct down, so they declared an unlawful assembly and slit some tires. The only fire was a trash fire in a concrete trash can by a brick part of the building. An old lady put it out once or twice with a small fire hydrant.

My guess, based on the Portland Police sharing a screenshot of the PNWYLF’s Twitter, is that the police decided some rumor on Twitter was true and that someone was coming with a firebomb or something. That would be a normal level of incompetence for most Police Departments. This gives them the excuse to do more property damage than the crowd (some graffiti and paint tonight) and then beat a bunch of people.

Edit: Video of cops randomly trashing the van.

Edit2: as I now have legacy poster powers (against my will) I’ll keep tonight’s stuff confined to one post. The Police are complaining about rebar caltrops popping tires on their Twitter feed. This was likely done in response to the video linked above (Portland Police are exceptionally social media minded but heavily limit all other media access, it’s a weird specific for them). I’d link it but there’s nothing more to it than that and I’d hate for anyone to waste their time reading replies by a mix of trolls, paid posters, and very strange bots.

Edit3: The LRAD’s tires were popped. I don’t know if it was the caltrops which caused it, that would provide a stronger motive than Garrison’s video for the complaint though.

Edit4: Ok, the cops also decided to make fools of themselves by citing the actual code that justifies them harassing press, which actually explicitly makes an exception for press. That being said, the language is broad enough that they’ll get away with violating it.

Edit5: and below is another journalist from the team I follow going into detail on some hypothetical explanations for the weird police behavior the past couple nights and how it may relate to this statute. It seems that since their injunction is still in effect they’re trying to come up with more varied legal justifications for their behavior than “we don’t want you around right now.”

Edit6: I had no intention of adding anything else for tonight, but as I don’t know if there will be another protest at this precinct, I feel it’d be disrespectful to the dead not to include this thread of information on the precinct’s history, particularly the linked tweet. Not interested in digging up the specifics right now, I’m sure it’s more complicated than “person dead by cop,” but I feel it is necessary to add.

 

[Neuromancer]

@Revnak For what it's worth, as someone that is on the other side of the planet and to whom getting any actual news updates would take research outside of the major headlines, I am thankful for the updates you offer. Stay safe.

 

[Trunkage]

Hey, dont know whether this should be here but anyway...


Looks at the body cam footage before Floyd's death. Vaush quickly goes over it. I dont know what specifically deserved a knee but anyway...

He also shows some conservative responses. Shapiro's is a classic. I hope it clears up why I've pretty much dont want to talk to conservatives right now. I try to be understanding but this is just not understandable