Female attractiveness in gaming, how far is acceptable?

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Auron

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Although what really pisses me off about this whole sexism thing is that televisions shows seem to be exempt. Nobody seems to care about all of the pointless sex and nudity in a Game of Thrones and True Blood. Or the open and even glorified sexism in Sex and the City.

Other mediums have a shitload of get out of jail free cards regarding violence, sexism, sex and a shitload of other stuff unfortunately. I mean those things can still be in games no one's censuring them(except for a few autocratic regimes and some western nations which should be ashamed but let's not go there.) but hell is it going to get bombed moost of the time even if it approaches concepts with maturity.
 

Yggdraz0r

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Auron said:
Although what really pisses me off about this whole sexism thing is that televisions shows seem to be exempt. Nobody seems to care about all of the pointless sex and nudity in a Game of Thrones and True Blood. Or the open and even glorified sexism in Sex and the City.

Other mediums have a shitload of get out of jail free cards regarding violence, sexism, sex and a shitload of other stuff unfortunately. I mean those things can still be in games no one's censuring them(except for a few autocratic regimes and some western nations which should be ashamed but let's not go there.) but hell is it going to get bombed moost of the time even if it approaches concepts with maturity.
Nobody is hating on The Witcher 2 are they?
 

gazumped

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The idea of there being an attractiveness 'cap' is a bit over the top. Beside it being a subjective thing anyway.

People have already said this but it's not attractiveness that's the issue, it's one-dimensional personalities where females are ONLY there to be attractive/pander to males/etc. And even one or two of them can be let off if it's in some kind of context (like, they're just a particularly shallow person) and they're put alongside non-shallow females so that it's not trying to come across as an idealistic or typical portrayal of females.

Having said that, there is a general problem with idealistic portrayals across all media, including but not limited to: skinny women, big boobed women, muscley men, white people, heterosexual couples, gender normative people, etc. If we're really going to get PC about this we should be trying to get games not to just throw some plainer looking females in there but a load of other demographics as well, to make sure that no one feels marginalised or abnormal. You know, ideally. But I neither expect nor can be bothered to insist on most games to sacrifice maximum eye candy in order to reflect that un-buffed gals and guys exist.

But it depends on the game, I suppose. If it's a realistic setting, something like Heavy Rain, I'd expect to see real people in it. If it's more fantastical, like Soul Calibur, I don't mind some stonking great tits on a minimal-leather-clad Ivy. Although I will roll my eyes a little, 'cause, yehknow, it's just kind of ridiculous. :p
 

Brainwreck

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Attractiveness is extremely subjective. You can call things 'sexualization' and 'exploitation', because that can very well be defined. Attractiveness depends on who's viewing it.
So buy a fucking donut and then eat it, you silly goof.

Also, captcha says you're fired!
 

need4snacks

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There is no unacceptable level of female attractiveness in video games. If you think such levels exist; you're wrong.
 

Auron

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Yggdraz0r said:
Nobody is hating on The Witcher 2 are they?
Well Witcher isn't that well known or marketed outside of it's circles and it's native country far as I remember. But it was still pretty easy, on a very superficial google search, to find people hating on it for stupid reasons. I myself could never ever no matter how much I tried get into the first due to the ridiculous combat system so I didn't play the second either but story-wise both look pretty interesting, those articles say otherwise.

http://www.alteredgamer.com/the-witcher/120371-sex-content-in-the-witcher-games-controversial-or-is-nudity-just-a-part-of-video-games/

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/14863-witcher-2s-nude-woman-torture-scene-being-reconsidered/

http://splitscreencoop.com/2010/09/16/the-witcher-2-boob-controversy/

Bonus stage - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzF173GqTU

This is what a more marketed game gets, I'm not even discussing the maturity here but a movie wouldn't be deliberately hated as much.
 

babinro

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Acceptable?

I've yet to see anything that has crossed the line. Men and Woman are so overly sexualized in games but it's really not much worse than what you see in other media.

I don't care for the 'male fantasy' media vision of a woman though. It's been overly done all my life.
'Normal' is far more attractive to me. I'll take an Alyx Vance or Dragon Age's Leliana over 98% of the woman in gaming.
 

Kakistos153

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The real problem with sexism isn't the aesthetic standards put on women, it is, as has been pointed out a few times in here, mostly to do with the perception that the woman has nothing to offer BUT her looks. It also has a lot to do with context. With games like lolipop chainsaw the characters are perhaps a complete sexist stereotype but its intentional and part of the ridiculousness that is the rest of the game. in a similar way to duke nukem forever being an unbelievable masculine standard to live up to and thats kinda the point.

I think men would have a similar problem with these things if every guy in movies for like (oh lets just say) 50-80 years was nothing more than a pretty face with nothing to add to the conversation other than "silly little ideas". Its still taught in progressive modern liberal tolerant universities, in screen play classes, that its bad to have 2 women talking to each other on screen about anything other than men. because men are the only people in movies that are interesting. Think about that, if it was just assumed for a really really long time that not only did you not have anything to say of value but that it was true that no one really gave a shit what you had to say about anything based entirely on your gender.

Its not really the aesthetic appreciation that's the problem. Its the fact that for a long time it was the only thing that anyone cared about that a woman had to offer and really the only acknowledgement of their existence in media. To an extent, thats an attitude that still exists to one degree or another and is displayed in various forms across various media sources.

Where there has been a lot of over reach is where there are men who have put themselves in the position formerly occupied by women. Supplicating and never willing to say anything other than "yes dear", its just the same thing in the opposite direction. Equality and balance is a difficult ideal to achieve so this isn't really surprising. But I, and me being something of an optimist i think most people, believe that its an ideal worth striving for and that we're moving in the right direction.

I don't however think that media is actually responsible for any of this. The media is really just of a reflection of culture as it exists in its time. If it wasn't then it wouldn't be in the shape that it is. We as gamers have a responsibility to stand up against things in the media that we believe don't represent us in order to change that shape to better reflect us. Things like racism and xenophobia, sexism and hate in all its insidious forms, when those forms are true (as opposed to satire), are important issues for shaping cultures when they crop up. Its through these issues that we decide if we're going to be a culture of inclusion and compassion or division and repression. Because whichever side of that fence you live on, it will probably shock you to find that there are people who truly believe you should be on the other.

Lolipop chainsaw makes fun of sexism, not women, whereas resident evil 6 was casually racist (completely unintentional as it was) and its up to us to stand up TO that attitude as much as we stand FOR lolipop chainsaws true underlying meaning. They both have an equal right to exist, absolutely, such is the nature of speech, but opinions that hold no traction with culture are quickly marginalised and ignored, and in many cases, rightly so. Its up to us as a community to be the deciders about what that is though.

(Sorry for using lolipop chainsaw like a fucking battle standard for womens lib. I know its really nothing even close to as profound as i'm making it out to be. its just an OTT example.)

Captcha: "vote pancakes"
 

Traun

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erttheking said:
So here is the question I want to ask. What is "acceptable" for a female character in gaming?
Everything is acceptable, from Kate Walker to Dead or Alive, there is no misogyny in appearances.
 

conmag9

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You can be as attractive as you like, as long as that's not the character's ONLY feature. Will people still call you out on it, no matter how good a character would be beyond their appearance? Yup. They're just being reactionary though. There's a really, really stupid idea that if something is well designed in the looks department, it's pointless fluff for the lowest common denominator, to be rightly snubbed by people with so called taste. There's nothing wrong with looking good, it's just that you shouldn't pour all your budget into it while you script is suffering.

The idea that a character should have a "maximum permissible attractiveness" boggles my mind.
 

AngloDoom

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Being attractive doesn't detract from a good character - it's just a shame when that's all a character has going for them.

It's like being the one black character in a film: it's no guarantee that the character will be poor but it's just sad when the only thing that distinguishes the character from others is the fact that they're a different ethnicity.
 

Hjalmar Fryklund

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May 22, 2008
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Attractiveness or sexual fanservice? Which one of them are we meant to discuss?

Anyway, since people have covered the point about internal logic, let me give you the business POV (or rather, my ideal of it): There is too much sexual fanservice if it causes distress to a significant part of the perceived target demographic.

In this context, "distress" includes anything ranging from "creeped out" to "utter revulsion."

With that said, let me get on my soapbox for a bit.

Discussions about female attractiveness and female sexual fanservice are not the same thing. Do not attempt to equate them. They have their share of parallels, but they also base themselves on different arguments and observations. The former concerns itself primarily with how society pressures women into feeling that they must be beautiful, the latter is more about, well, sex & sexuality, and how they are expressed in media.

EDIT: Wait a minute, I meant to say "equate", not "conflate!" Graaargh!

*smacks himself*
 

dyre

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What's wrong with females being attractive? Do you have something against good looking people?

In terms of wearing revealing clothing, my standard is pretty much "just keep it tasteful." Revealing clothing sort of works by diminishing returns. I mean, at some point the outfits become less sexy and more "who the fuck would wear that?"
 

Quadocky

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I think the problem is sexual objectification of women, not attractiveness.

Simply put, women and men CAN be sexual and what amounts to being attractive (or sexually attractive). HOWEVER there is a problem when large groups of people automatically think such depictions entitle them too debase them wholly on a sexual level. This is not okay, this is sexual harassment.
 

1080bitgamer

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I draw the line at inequality, not at how much skin is shown. If a girl is scantily clad, but the guys are dressed less so, that's where my problem comes in. If we're going to have women in chainmail bikinis, fine, but the guy needs to be ridiculously clothed as well.
 

PrinceOfShapeir

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Attractiveness is not a concern. I've never seen a character and thought "That character is so pretty it is offensive." I have, on occasion, thought "That character is way too good looking for this situation, she should be filthy/unhealthy/whatever" but I've never been angered by it, just mildly annoyed by people not paying attention to such details, or occasionally just ignoring it as a limitation of the engine.

What is annoying and occasionally angering is characters being sexualized for no reason. I don't mind Xtreme Beach Volleyball, it's blatant about what it wants to be and I can respect that. But take a game like Mass Effect 2, that tries to take itself seriously but whenever I talk to my First Officer I get a shot of her latex-clad ass? That starts to get under my skin. I have a hard time taking a character's plight and person seriously when the game seems fixated on showing me her T&A.