Female movie directors, game devs, sexism in the industry - root causes?

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Yuuki

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People are very swift to criticize games for lack of variety, a lack of good narrative, a lack of strong females, and of course a lack of appropriate representation of females.
But rarely do people ever discuss the REASONS for why it is so, the ROOT CAUSES. It's like we're too scared to ask the big questions, too scared to see the forest for the trees - why is this so? Why do we have to talk things on a case-by-case basis, why do we have to divulge into specifics, why can't we step back, take a breath and look at things in the grand scheme?

Some possible/potential causes I can think of behind what we're seeing and why we're seeing it:

1) Gaming is a relatively young entertainment medium compared to the other big 3 (books, music, movies), it just hasn't had enough time to grow and mature.
2) Gameplay/interactive elements and narrative/story elements are difficult to merge seamlessly, only an incredibly tiny fraction of games have succeeded at doing it well. Most narrative falls back on heavily overused cliches/tropes just to contrive a reason for the gameplay to happen.
3) There is an extremely obvious gender-gap when looking at the people who are MAKING/SELLING the games (development teams, studios, publishers, etc).
4) There is a large gender-gap when looking at the people who are PURCHASING the big-name titles. Yeah I said "big-name titles" because obviously if you looked at Farville, Bejwelled, Online Poker, Pop-Cap Games, Sims etc then you will find a ton of females, but the discovery of female casual gamers hasn't particularly helped their case and is a bit of a laughing point as far as gamers from other genres are concerned. Look at genres/communities of FPS, RTS, MMO, Arcade Fighter, etc gaes and you will find entire legions of males with females being utterly outnumbered.

Now, I can't think of any realistic "magical" solutions to reason 1) and reason 2) other than simply waiting, waiting, and further waiting. 4) is a bit of a byproduct/result of all other factors, I can't come up with a solution for that either.
We will have to wait for gaming to develop and mature and survive the current crisis/challenges. In order for more developers to crack the formula between tying together gameplay & narrative, we can only wait for gaming to develop further and become more widespread. There are still entire 3rd-world populations that don't even know what gaming is, for them books/movies/music are all they can get their hands on. Videogaming is still a fairly niche interest for the rich & privileged, a fair chunk of the world doesn't rely on it.

Which brings us to reason 3) - the gender gap in development, and now I get to explain why my thread title has "female movie directors" in it.

Someone decided to compile a list of the top 250 directors according to their IMDB rating:
http://www.imdb.com/list/IeU9kNuWNbM/

Now putting aside any minor squabbles people might have with who should be in the list, who shouldn't and where they should rank (that is frankly not the point), here is what I could tell: Out of the 250 names there, I could only identify 2 female directors.

Let that sink in - 2 female directors out of a list of 250. You don't have to go by that list, dig up practically any "top" list of directors, or nominees in film festivals, whatever - you will see a similar pattern.

This confuses me when I look at the other two big mediums, i.e. books and music. Both of those have had extensive involvement from females from a fairly early time. Hell even in the middle ages a "polished" society girl was expected to know how to play at least 1 instrument and being able to sing was considered a huge plus. For every big male musician/singer you could name, I could probably name a female one. Alright so arguably in certain genres you will still find male musicians vastly outnumbering females (looking at you metal/rock), but it's not too bad, we still see a ton of variety.
I could even argue that female writers (especially in the area of fiction novels) outnumber males! Seriously, there is no shortage of female novel-writers out there, there are entire clubs and groups of female book-lovers/writers.
(Apologies for not having solid data, it's just a hunch I've got from being alive all these years, reading a ton of books and listening to a vast variety of music :p)

So what's happening with movies & gaming specifically? Why is it such a boys club compared to music & writing?

Movies are a far older medium than videogames, spanning back to over 100 years ago when some crazy guy discovered that running through images really fast could be perceived as smooth motion. They have had time to develop, they have had time to mature, and today we see an absolutely staggering variety in movies across the entire world (I'm not just talking Hollywood).
So what is going on here with the gender gap? Why are such few women pursuing big-budget cinematography despite cinema having had such an incredibly long time to develop?

Will we EVER see game development/publishing gain a better female perspective, or will it become something like movies where female creators are nothing short of extraordinarily rare?

Is the lack of female developers/minds even a root cause for the under-representation/misrepresentation of females in videogames? This guy could be onto something (don't worry, only a 2 minute video):


We see plenty of variety in movies despite almost every director being male (then again there are a TON of tropes/cliches), so perhaps the same could be accomplished with gaming?

I know this is kinda a big topic and I've only scratched the surface...what do people think?
 

SonicWaffle

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Yuuki said:
I know this is kinda a big topic and I've only scratched the surface...what do people think?
The industry is still perceived as being by and for males, which probably prevents a lot of women from trying to break in. That'd be my guess. You hear horror stories from women who got shit from gamers for trying to be part of the boys' club, and if I were packing a vag it'd certainly put me off.
 

Yuuki

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SonicWaffle said:
The industry is still perceived as being by and for males, which probably prevents a lot of women from trying to break in. That'd be my guess. You hear horror stories from women who got shit from gamers for trying to be part of the boys' club, and if I were packing a vag it'd certainly put me off.
You're right, that is one of the factors, but unfortunately I don't see that issue solving itself. At all. Ever.

It's an eternally vicious cycle and one side is supposedly expected to "be nice and just let them in", but that comes across as utterly naive because not how any industry has ever worked.
Competition drives standards, competition drives desperation (you see it in the corporate sector all the time), competition is inevitable no matter where you go.

Apologies if I sound an absolute prick while saying this, but one of the many implications of competition involves pushing down the weak until only the strong remain. "Strong" can imply anything from being the most corrupt asshole, or to be the biggest hero, it doesn't matter - at the end of they day they still prevail and end up making the big decisions, and they're not going to give their position up without a fight.

Since this is a topic trying to analyze the ROOT CAUSES, I'm avoiding just skimming along the surface of "oh but they face sexism!" and dig into WHY they face sexism, why is it keeping them down, what can realistically be done about it? The law of causality states that everything has a cause (and effect). Only then can we explore a viable solution, if one even exists in this case.

Because frankly when I hear people saying something like "how about people STOP being sexist and just be nice?" and leaving it there, it strikes me as a bit sad, it's like they don't even have a vague idea how industries & competition (and people in general) work.

Oh and I'm still a confused as to why books & music have so many females while games & movies don't :p
 

SonicWaffle

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Yuuki said:
It's an eternally vicious cycle and one side is supposedly expected to "be nice and just let them in", but that comes across as utterly naive because not how any industry has ever worked.
There's a bit of a difference between "be nice and let them in" and "don't be openly hostile to them when they do try to get in".

Yuuki said:
Competition drives standards, competition drives desperation (you see it in the corporate sector all the time), competition is invevitable.

Apologies if I sound an absolutely prick while saying this, but competition pushes down the weak until only the strong remain. "Strong" can imply anything from being the most corrupt asshole, or to be the biggest hero, it doesn't matter - at the end of they day they still prevail and end up making the big decisions, and they're not going to give their position up without a fight.
I'm really not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand. Are you suggesting that currently male-dominated industries are deliberately edging women out because they perceive them as competition in a different way from how they see other males?

Yuuki said:
Since this is a topic trying to analyze the ROOT CAUSES, I'm avoiding just skimming along the surface of "oh but they face sexism!" and dig into WHY that happens to them. The law of causality states that everything has a cause (and effect). Only then can we explore a viable solution.

Because frankly when I hear people leaving things at "how about people STOP being sexist and just be nice?" it strikes me as a bit sad, it's like they don't even have a vague idea how industries (and people in general) work.
You're trying to find out why sexism exists? That's a much bigger question than why there aren't many women in the game dev business.
 

Yuuki

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SonicWaffle said:
There's a bit of a difference between "be nice and let them in" and "don't be openly hostile to them when they do try to get in".
But why is there hostility to begin with? This isn't just some freak random case, it's happening to quite a few women. What is the cause? You tell me. When something happens across a noticeable scale, a general list of causes/reasons can be drawn, we don't have to get into specifics. What is the general cause here?

SonicWaffle said:
I'm really not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand. Are you suggesting that currently male-dominated industries are deliberately edging women out because they perceive them as competition in a different way from how they see other males?
In a different way from how they see other males? No. Someone they can easily step on and push out using simple acts of harassment/sexism? Possibly. I don't know. Ties into the first question, why does it even happen?
I tried to answer it with "competition", but you disagree - that's fine, but then what do YOU think is the cause?

Yuuki said:
You're trying to find out why sexism exists? That's a much bigger question than why there aren't many women in the game dev business.
And the answer to that question is absolutely linked to solving why the very concept of "sexism" has become synonymous with "it's something that simply happens to women a lot", which is in turn at least somewhat linked with the misrepresentation of females and the lack of female protagonists in videogames. That's what I'm trying to answer.

Females absolutely exist in the music business and book business. What's the difference between that and the game dev business or movie directing business? The first thing that comes to mind is the amount of money/budgets involved, but then that indirectly ties in with my initial answer of "competition", with big budgets there's a lot at stake.

That's why I'm bringing up movie directors, because it's a HUGE case of total male domination with seemingly no cause/reason. It intrigues me.
 

SonicWaffle

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Yuuki said:
SonicWaffle said:
There's a bit of a difference between "be nice and let them in" and "don't be openly hostile to them when they do try to get in".
But why is there hostility to begin with? This isn't just some freak random case, it's happening to quite a few women. What is the cause? You tell me.
That's an enormous question you're asking. There's no quick or easy answer, nothing I can post here to explain why sexism has been and continues to be "a thing". There are probably as many "root causes" for it as there are sexist people, because there isn't just one thing you can point to and say "that. That right there is why we still have a problem with equality"

Yuuki said:
SonicWaffle said:
I'm really not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand. Are you suggesting that currently male-dominated industries are deliberately edging women out because they perceive them as competition in a different way from how they see other males?
In a different way from how they see other males? No. Someone they can easily step on and push out using simple acts of harassment/sexism? Possibly. I don't know. Ties into the first question, why does it even happen?
I tried to answer it with "competition", but you disagree - that's fine, but then what do YOU think is the cause?
Competition doesn't answer the question. If the basis was fear of competition from those in power, we wouldn't have concepts like the glass ceiling, we'd have a lead ceiling to keep everyone out. Given that it's slanted against women more than men, that men are more readily accepted by the industry and the consumer both, it can't be that powerful people are keeping women out of the business because they're worried about competition. Do some justify it that way? Possibly, as I said before everyone has different reasons. Is that the dominant one? I seriously doubt it.

Yuuki said:
Yuuki said:
You're trying to find out why sexism exists? That's a much bigger question than why there aren't many women in the game dev business.
And the answer to that question is absolutely linked to solving why the very concept of "sexism" has become synomous with "it's something that simply happens to women a lot". That's what I'm trying to answer.

Females absolutely exist in the music business and book business. What's the difference between that and the game dev business or movie directing business?

That's also why I'm bringing up movies a lot, because it's a HUGE case of total male domination with seemingly no cause/reason. It intrigues me.
Tradition, probably. A surprisingly large number of people will resist change simply on the basis that "this way has always worked fine". We don't have many female directors but we still get a lot of good films? No need to change anything then! Everything is fine the way it is.

I dunno, dude, you're asking me to explain a viewpoint that makes absolutely no sense to me. Might as well ask me why some people bungee jump or vote Conservative; I can't really wrap my head around it, so I can't give any convincing reason for why they would.
 

Thaluikhain

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Yuuki said:
1) Gaming is a relatively young entertainment medium compared to the other big 3 (books, music, movies), it just hasn't had enough time to grow and mature
2) Gameplay/interactive elements and narrative/story elements are difficult to merge seamlessly, only an incredibly tiny fraction of games have succeeded at doing it well
Hey? I don't see how those are relevant.

Anyway, there is a great deal of sexism within wider culture, therefore it is to be expected that there is sexism in the gaming industry. I don't think it's more complicated than that.
 

Yuuki

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thaluikhain said:
Yuuki said:
1) Gaming is a relatively young entertainment medium compared to the other big 3 (books, music, movies), it just hasn't had enough time to grow and mature
2) Gameplay/interactive elements and narrative/story elements are difficult to merge seamlessly, only an incredibly tiny fraction of games have succeeded at doing it well
Hey? I don't see how those are relevant.
Relevant to what? The glass ceiling for women in the real world, of the depiction of women (or lack of) in videogames? It is relevant to the latter. Writers often fall onto very basic plots to contrive a reason for the person to play through the game (besides "kill everything"), that's one reason why Damsel in Distress is/was a popular one - because it existed throughout tradition and we can all relate to it. But other entertainment mediums have far more variety due to being far older than games and not needing an interactive element is absolutely relevant, it means it's easier to piece together a book/movie/song than it is to piece together a videogame that seamlessly merges gameplay & narrative. I mean that's basically what Yahtzee has been complaining about for all these years :p
 

Thaluikhain

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Yuuki said:
Relevant to what? The glass ceiling for women in the real world, of the depiction of women (or lack of) in videogames? It is relevant to the latter. Writers often fall onto very basic plots to contrive a reason for the person to play through the game (besides "kill everything"), that's one reason why Damsel in Distress is/was a popular one - because it existed throughout tradition and we can all relate to it. But other entertainment mediums have far more variety due to being far older than games and not needing an interactive element is absolutely relevant, it means it's easier to piece together a book/movie/song than it is to piece together a videogame that seamlessly merges gameplay & narrative. I mean that's basically what Yahtzee has been complaining about for all these years :p
I don't see how a man rescuing a female love interest is simpler than a woman rescuing a male love interest. Or some cousins that she/he doesn't really like but is obliged to go help. Or their teacher, cause if they rescue them they'll get an automatic pass.

One of these is much, much commoner than the others.
 

Yuuki

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thaluikhain said:
I don't see how a man rescuing a female love interest is simpler than a woman rescuing a male love interest.
Err...yeah that could take a while to explain. I'm just going to leave two videos here, he digs into why old stories and structures (one of them being the Damsel trope) are still relevant today, some very good info from an unbiased viewpoint:


 

Smeatza

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First of all, good thread, good thread.

Second of all I think it's especially interesting and pertinent that you bring up film directors.
After all the shockingly low number of female directors is a very well documented and wholly persistent beast.

I've read that the film industry has always had a very close relationship with sex and sexual attractiveness. This combined with the male dominance means the more traditional sexist attitudes and sexual objectification are going to be all the more frequent. How did they put it again? "If you want to make lots of money go to Wall Street, if you want to make lots of money and have lots of sex go to Hollywood."
On top of all the standard reasons of course.

Overall I think the film industry is serving as a great guide for which road shouldn't be walked.
The problem has persisted on the same scale in spite of the gender gap in education evening up, in spite of the stats showing that films with female directors gross the same amount with the same budget and in spite of cultural sexism being on the decrease.
Why?
Because the industry and (more importantly) surrounding media refuses to acknowledge it. Are you going to get invited back to the Oscars if you bring it up during your acceptance speech? Why when researching this, could I only find general news sites that would address the issue, and very few specialist film news sites? Why is this issue brought up less than video games and sexism within the general media (although my bias for noticing video game related articles may come into play here) when it has been around for longer and is more extreme?
Because the industry is more established and therefore more defensive and conservative.

On the flip side, the fact the video game industry is younger and less established means all news media, specialist or not are more than happy to report on potential issues in the industry, legitimate or not. And the industry itself has to be more aware and prepared to address such issues.

I'm probably just stating the obvious but I wanted to contribute to this thread seen as we rarely get threads on the subject with such a civil tone. Providing the tone hasn't changed significantly in the looooooong time it took me to write this post.
 

Greg White

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Here's my view on it:

In essence, a very vocal part of the gaming audience is still immature and sexist. Frat boys and other manchildren are one obvious demographic, made worse by the magnanimity the internet provides, but this leads to gaming toxicity in general.

As for the gender gap, this seems more the fact that women being interested in gaming is still an alien thing. Gaming has long been a predominantly male thing(big sellers anyway) and that is the main group that would be most heavily entrenched at the top.

There are a large number of women working in the games industry now, doing everything from art and graphic design to programming, to everything else, but there just aren't very many working as project directors. Could be that the job itself is of little interest to most of them, could be that most of the men that have been in the industry longer just don't want to step aside and let someone else have a go at it(which is the case in every industry), but I don't see things changing that drastically in the near future, not in the AAA industry at least.
 

Sniper Team 4

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I think it dates all the way back to how women were viewed centuries ago. Even decades ago. Even today. There is a subconscious level of thinking and looking at women that has been implanted in the human mind for so long and it goes so deep and it's reinforced so often by, well, nearly everything in the world (ads, speech, actions, products) that it is very hard to get rid of. Women were viewed as second class citizens for a long time (and still are to a lot of people) and thus that mindset affects a lot of decisions made about them, even if the person doesn't realize it.
 

Quadocky

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I think it has to do mostly with ignorant men and toxic nerd culture. When the two intersect all sorts of bad stuff happens. Like that Scarlet Blade MMO for example, or Skull Girls, or the endless depths of games that feature busty women in some capacity. This isn't to say that sex and sexuality is a bad thing, so much as that kind of representation of sex being a mostly negative one that removes agency on the part of the woman.

I think Skull Girls is a thing that kinda points out this weird cross section of nerdy awfulness in which as a game it has a wonderful technical capacity yet the cheesecake is so obvious and bizarrely nerdy 'removing agency' kind of way. Dragon's Crown also stemming from the same sort of awfulness.

Games the keep sending the message that women are meant to be sexy or purely meant for sexual pleasure (of men, or others) is just ... awful. That is not healthy thing to think in terms of sex as sexual relations are meant to be fun and consensual for both (or more) participants involved. When its not its just abusive.

And when you got gamers nodding their heads to awful people like the Amazing Atheist or Thunderfoot in large numbers (or even that insufferable weirdo in that video in the OP) you pretty much got a recipe for a self-defeating disaster. One should not seek knowledge about feminism from a misogynist in the same way one should not seek knowledge about civil rights from a racist.
 

Rebel_Raven

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Considering the number of "chick flicks," and the existance of most of our beloved female characters in gaming, I gotta say the whole notion that it's male dominated as being a root problem is pretty bogus, IMO.

The potential to write -great- female characters exists in all genders. The asian game industry seems to be proof of this to say the least.
My issue, specefically with gaming, is how much liberty people have in the ventuire of creating female figures. I don't think movies have the same limitations placed on it as videogames, hence a larger diversity of characters, and inclusive genres.

I'm not willing to discount the idea that a woman might be against the birth of a game with a female hero, either. Men, and women, both are able to make decisions I dislike, so that also kinda kicks the notion of a male dominated industry as an excuse, IMO.

The issue with the gender gap in game purchasing? I gotta say it's either the gaming industry stopped trying to welcome women, or the other way around. I'm pretty sure if we had a solid gaming series, or a few of them, that welcomed women as gamers, we'd see the gender gap close regardless of who bailed on who first.

I'm not saying women shouldn't get into the industry to try and make a difference. I feel they certainly should, not to test out anyone's theory, but just because they might want to. How much impact women will have, however, will be a mystery, IMO until there's more women. Frankly, I'm not terribly optimistic there will be a huge change in things. I could be wrong, though.
 

Yuuki

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Smeatza said:
Overall I think the film industry is serving as a great guide for which road shouldn't be walked.
That's a pretty heavy statement considering all the incredible entertainment and entire cultural/psychological shifts the film industry has brought to the world (and will continue to do so). It's really not something where you can jab a finger at it and ask "is this good or bad?" due to the sheer scale of change and revolution that it has caused. You and I would be different people in a world without the film industry.

One of the uncomfortable truths that we must face is that men were pretty much at the forefront of almost every known revolution, invention, change, etc (generally speaking, exceptions did exist). One of the uncomfortable truths behind THAT would've been tied to how women were more or less forbidden to study beyond a certain age or pursue their desired careers, becoming a genius inventor or a revolutionary wasn't really something society encouraged women to do. All that kind of crazy/extreme stuff was for men to devote their lives to, women were expected to get married and raise kids or pursue low-profile careers like teaching, etc.

So it was only a matter of time before men created cinema - is that something that you can criticize or label as a "road that shouldn't be walked"? Something that wouldn't exist today if it hadn't happened back then? If anything film has only taken it's natural unstoppable course, like a slow-moving glacier.

Smeatza said:
The problem has persisted on the same scale in spite of the gender gap in education evening up, in spite of the stats showing that films with female directors gross the same amount with the same budget and in spite of cultural sexism being on the decrease.
Why?
Because the industry and (more importantly) surrounding media refuses to acknowledge it. Are you going to get invited back to the Oscars if you bring it up during your acceptance speech?
There is a slight contradiction in this paragraph - if films with female directors gross the same amount with the same budget, then how can it possibly NOT get the same amount of acknowledgement and media attention? Success = money = attention = marketing, they are all directly linked especially in the film industry. If a female director wins an Oscar, it means she has been recognized/acknowledged, she wouldn't need to bring up her gender at all. It would be as normal as a male director winning as Oscar, there would be nothing special about it.

I don't believe the industry/surrounding media is not acknowledging female directors, I believe there are virtually no female directors TO acknowledge. I mean look around movie sites like IMDB and RottenTomatoes, you could be forgiven to think that female directors barely exist.
The industry/media don't have that much control over what films gross, advertising is their one and only "persuasion" tool. They have nothing beyond that. It's the PEOPLE (i.e. consumers) who ultimately acknowledge movies, we acknowledge directors, we acknowledge success all by the sheer power of our wallets - we are the ones paying for all this and keeping it going.

Smeatza said:
Because the industry is more established and therefore more defensive and conservative.
You're most likely onto something here. Industries that are old and established, just like traditions, are extremely rigid and conservative. A good example of this is the Japanese industry and the general Japanese method of thinking - don't fix what isn't broken, don't even THINK about changing something that is currently working fine. This is both a good thing (the industry is stable and doesn't' rollercoaster all over the place) but at the same time pretty terrible because old values/ideologies refuse to budge.
The fact that this isn't something like all-out open racism (e.g. black slavery) that literally stands out in a "holy shit this is just wrong!" kind of way, it's something far more subtle and difficult to change.

Smeatza said:
On the flip side, the fact the video game industry is younger and less established means all news media, specialist or not are more than happy to report on potential issues in the industry, legitimate or not. And the industry itself has to be more aware and prepared to address such issues.
Amen to that. Gaming's only curse (it's youth) is also possibly it's greatest blessing, because we are seeing it flourish in a time of change and controversy, a time where people are pushing their freedom of speech to it's limits (and beyond) and the endless groups/demographics are rearing their heads and saying "what about us?".

The very fact that developers are AWARE of these kinds of discussions is already a sign of change. Whether they care about it or not is up to them. At the moment most developers are not really inclined to give a shit about any of this controversy because it is still coming from an absolute tiny minority who has little or no impact on sales. The great tidal-wave of consumers and the big publishers aren't inclined to care, because ultimately most of their questions are answered by our WALLETS, not words. That's how any market/products works on the grand scale, gaming is no different.

E.g. I'd be inclined to think that right now at Team Ninja headquarters someone is asking "oh boy, you think some people will complain about the girls in our upcoming game being uber-sexualized?" to which one of the senior project directors will probably respond "Who? Feminists? Ahaha they probably will, but we will continue not giving a fuck. We have a a market to cater to, we have a fanbase who loves this kind of stuff, who can stop us?"
And they totally can continue doing what works for them because normal people like you and me buy their games, I'm not going to criticize them for it.

Smeatza said:
Providing the tone hasn't changed significantly in the looooooong time it took me to write this post.
Not yet, not yet :S
 

Nuxxy

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You are confusing roles. There are a lot of female writers and singers because their creative output doesn't depend on others - it's mostly dependent on personal talent. Rather than looking at female directors, look at the number of female screenwriters. And there you will find the reason for the diversity in storytelling in movies.

A director is a controller as well as a visionary, and as in the business world, there will be a lot of grumbles from men following the lead of a woman. Sexism is part of the reason for the lack of female directors. If you take woman's rights starting in the 60s and finally becoming accepted in the 80s, then movies and games are almost of the same age, regarding woman in control. They are both still maturing. Singer's have the advantage of some people preferring a woman's voice, and writer's have pseudonyms to write behind until they are acclaimed enough that sexist detractors look like fools.

The pseudonym principle is probably the best way to 'shock' the games industry. It would be interesting to see a female team release a brilliant game and 'hide' behind a company name, reaping success, only to later reveal they are women. They shouldn't have to hide, but it would go a long way to getting past the barrier of idiocy currently surrounding sexist male gamers.
 

Yuuki

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Rebel_Raven said:
My issue, specefically with gaming, is how much liberty people have in the ventuire of creating female figures. I don't think movies have the same limitations placed on it as videogames
Ah, so you believe that male directors can (and have) created tons of movies with great female leads, but in the gaming industry developers/writers are being restricted from creating female characters. Jim explored that aspect in his Creepy Cull video as we all know and ended up on a pretty indecisive note because of it being a chicken & egg issue of consumers not buying certain games because they're possibly not being marketed/advertised enough, and publishers not spending money marketing/advertising certain games because consumers are not buying them.

But one thing stands to question, how did the movie industry end up being relatively restriction-free while the gaming industry is stuck in this cycle? Is this, once again, just a matter of waiting and waiting?

You're definitely onto something when you say that males can make great movies with females, because (alarmingly) a ton of "chick flicks" and action-girl movies still have male directors. Granted there aren't very many of those movies that make it big on anywhere the same frequency as movies with male protagonists (for every high-ranking movie you name with a strong female protagonist, I could probably name 5 with a male one)...but I guess they still exist and act as proof of your statements, because movies are still in a vastly better level when it comes to female characters than gaming is right now. I guess it could really be just a matter of time, possibly in the next decade or two.

Curse you Rebel and your...err...rebellious ways o_O
 

CloudAtlas

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Yuuki said:
Smeatza said:
Because the industry is more established and therefore more defensive and conservative.
You're most likely onto something here. Industries that are old and established, just like traditions, are extremely rigid and conservative. A good example of this is the Japanese industry and the general Japanese method of thinking - don't fix what isn't broken, don't even THINK about changing something that is currently working fine. This is both a good thing (the industry is stable and doesn't' rollercoaster all over the place) but at the same time pretty terrible because old values/ideologies refuse to budge.
The fact that this isn't something like all-out open racism (e.g. black slavery) that literally stands out in a "holy shit this is just wrong!" kind of way, it's something far more subtle and difficult to change.
1. Many industries that are much older and much more established than the gaming industry are probably a better place for women to work.

2. I am not sure if you have a good understanding of the Japanese economy. The arguably most well-known concept originating from Japan, Kaizen, is not exactly "don't even think about changing something that is currently working fine", and I have some difficulties to imagine how you could become one of the most technologically advanced nations with such an attitude. Also, the Japanese economy was only "stable" after 1991, when its bubble burst, and "stable" is a rather euphemistic label.
That said, the Japanese society is of course very conservative in many regards and, dare I say it, pretty sexist. It should therefore not come as surprise when games from Japan reflect the society they originate of. And while that sucks for people who happen to like Japanese games, it is probably more useful to focus the debate on Western games, as the chances to change anything about the Japanese gaming industry are probably much slimmer.

Edit 3. Now I don't want to equate or these two issues in any way, but "holy shit this is just wrong", we have such moments too with regards to sexism and gaming. But, here as there, there are enough people who readily justify or relativize even the most appalling behavior.