Female movie directors, game devs, sexism in the industry - root causes?

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Sorry, but still, all basically irrelevant.

Someone who studied English may simply want to be an English teacher, a publicist, a literary critic, or a myriad of other jobs (to give a personal example, my mom was an English Major but never really used it) so that stat is basically meaningless. And, again, you were talking about people who write in the video game and movie industry, which is very different than writing books and short stories.

I'm sure you're going to use your second link to attempt to prove that there is also a bias against women in the book world, but again, the statistics cited by this site (which, let's face it, clearly has its mind made up) are meaningless. Just saying "x number of books by men were reviewed, and y number of books by women were reviewed, x>y, therefore sexism", or "there are more male book reviewers than females, therefore sexism" is ridiculous, because you'd have to know exactly how many books were submitted for review by each gender, which is not given, and you'd have to know how many people applied for those book reviewer jobs, by gender, which is also not given.

Likewise, books aren't published at random, they're published based on whether the publishing company believes they're going to sell or not. For example, Timothy Ferris, author of the best-selling "The 4-hour body", was rejected by 24 publishers before he finally got published, and his book was a mega-hit. Is this sexism? If more women submit books that the company deems won't sell well enough to justify publication, that's not sexism from the company, that's a desire for profit. Further, the fact that those three aforementioned female authors have basically dominated the industry for the last 15 or so years pretty much drives the final nail into this proverbial coffin (oh, and I forgot about "The Secret", which also had a female author).

Also, this is the list of the NYT best-sellers for 2013 (admittedly only in the fiction category though). 4 out of the top 5 are from female authors. If that's a "barrier to entry", sign me up!
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/29970.2013_NY_Times_Best_Sellers_Fiction

What you're doing is citing popular female authors. Just because there are popular female authors who've dominated the industry doesn't say anything about how many there are that get published. Want another source (even though it mentions vida it did it's own independent research) that shows the gap between female and male published authors?
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews

They took 13 publishing companies and the closest company to have gender equality was 55% male and 45% female. 35% For the next, 30% for the next three and the rest were below 25%. They don't need to be equal, but doesn't it seem a little odd that the equality is always skewed in the exact same way?

Actually, if 4/5 of the bestselling novels that year (And really? 50 Shades of Grey? That is just all kinds of depressing) were written by women that begs me to wonder even more why the publishing rates of women are so low

Also, this is probably relevant http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324355904578159453918443978.html

How often is it that you see a male author using a female pseudonym? Men are more willing to buy books by male authors while women will buy about equally from both genders. It is simply more profitable for publishers to take advantage of this and publish more books from male authors.

Anyways, as you said, I was talking specifically about movies. If I'm understanding you correctly you are saying that the vast majority of women taking Bachelor of Arts don't aspire to write novels, instead dreaming of jobs as publicists or literary critics (Oops, not that one, that other link showed that there's way more male book reviewers hired so that means they're not very interested in that). On the other side, the vast majority of men who take Bachelor of Arts aspire to be writers. Because there is no discrimination at play whatsoever.

Why is that the most likely option? Women just don't like writing? Looking at fanfiction there's considerably more female authors than male ( http://ffnresearch.blogspot.ca/2011/03/fan-fiction-demographics-in-2010-age.html ), and just browsing a thread asking about the participants of Nanowrimo (National Novel Writing Month http://nanowrimo.org/en/forums/age-group-20s/threads/72216?page=1 ) the results seem to be overwhelmingly female. Now that's just a forum, so it's not as good as actual statistics but with 7 pages of responses and such an overwhelming female majority I'd be surprised if there was a distinctly low population involved in that). So, women appear to enjoy writing more by this, including writing things of similar nature to movies and tv shows judging by the fanfiction presence.

Excuse me if I don't find it likely that there's just so much fewer aspiring female writers for tv, movies and books. Gender bias seems far more likely than a very contrary seeming lack of interest in writing professionally

 

[Norithics]

Doing. Consistently talked down to by my male peers and have to spend at least three times the time rooting out dependable, honest people to work with on projects who won't act and behave poorly based on their sexist values. Unable to speak out against such unfairness for fear of proving the 'point' you're trying to make here.

Funny little catch 22 going there.

Ah-ha! Caught you! All you had to do was alter the entire landscape all by yourself, but now that you've complained about the odds being stacked against you, you're a rabid feminazi to us real gamers, and all of your accomplishments are moot! *foldarms* Why couldn't you be one of the good ones???

[... /sarcasm, if it wasn't obvious]

The phrase I keep hearing bandied about is 'Internalized Misogyny'...

That is... not in any way helpful at all. "Oh, we've got a new name for it! 'Hitlerizing!' Much less controversial."

 

[Charli]

Doing. Consistently talked down to by my male peers and have to spend at least three times the time rooting out dependable, honest people to work with on projects who won't act and behave poorly based on their sexist values. Unable to speak out against such unfairness for fear of proving the 'point' you're trying to make here.

Funny little catch 22 going there.

Ah-ha! Caught you! All you had to do was alter the entire landscape all by yourself, but now that you've complained about the odds being stacked against you, you're a rabid feminazi to us real gamers, and all of your accomplishments are moot! *foldarms* Why couldn't you be one of the good ones???

*Grows into female titan* Rawr feme-tron smash! Patriarchy! Nrghghgh Berlglgh.

 

[Norithics]

*Grows into female titan* Rawr feme-tron smash! Patriarchy! Nrghghgh Berlglgh.

*Gasp* It's like all of my tsundere animes!

Also, it was very unbecoming of you to contradict my blatant confirmation bias with your real, actual experiences. Stoppp iiiiiittt!

Actually, I'm really curious about your project now. Can you share anything, or is it pretty hush-hush? I'd also take a PM.

 

[CloudAtlas]

I see you could resist no longer. The M-bomb is dropped, I'm officially the bad guy. Learn from me lads, if you're going to talk to or about a woman you better watch your fucking tongue and speak to her like the queen that she clearly is, because if not, and you dare speak bluntly or even harshly(without actually insulting her mind, or even swearing or name calling or anything) you'll get two on oned by people that are as full of shit as you are and have nothing to do with anything and you'll get written off with language like Misogynist and Entitled.

If you're using just the same arguments, the same tactics, and the same language as people for who are entitled and misogynist do all the time then you shouldn't complain about being labelled as such. Chances are that label does apply.

 

[Yuuki]

Guys please try to keep it civil in here, there's a lot of infractions/warnings getting handed out. Say whatever you want but do so without directly insulting anyone or going totally nuts. You know the rules, work with them.

Also Once I changed my CV to read Charlie, rather than Charli. I surprisingly got much more frequent calls for my talents. I was almost considering a voice changer for my phone interviews for fear of being told sheepishly that they weren't aware I was a female and try to shuffle out of giving me a chance to prove myself.

Talent cannot be proven without a chance. And those chances are not offered nearly at the 50/50 standard that it should, precisely because of ideals like that.

But then again maybe my opus project when it's finally made some headway years from now might prove my abilities, I'm still debating hiding my gender though, lord knows something in it doesn't work right or it flops I'll get enough threats of rape or beating for making a mistake and daring to possess a uterus. (Is it any wonder females are afraid to DO?)

But why do you think this is still happening? What do men have to GAIN by keeping you down? Is it purely fear of competition? Or an underlying hatred for all women and a desire to see them excluded/pushed-down (i.e. blatant misogyny, which I doubt is the case).

Why are they not giving you the chance to prove your talent, and why would they threaten you with rape/violence if you failed - what do they have to GAIN from treating women like that? Typically people wouldn't to stuff like that without a cause, without a reason.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Guys please try to keep it civil in here, there's a lot of infractions/warnings getting handed out. Say whatever you want but do so without directly insulting anyone or going totally nuts. You know the rules, work with them.

Also Once I changed my CV to read Charlie, rather than Charli. I surprisingly got much more frequent calls for my talents. I was almost considering a voice changer for my phone interviews for fear of being told sheepishly that they weren't aware I was a female and try to shuffle out of giving me a chance to prove myself.

Talent cannot be proven without a chance. And those chances are not offered nearly at the 50/50 standard that it should, precisely because of ideals like that.

But then again maybe my opus project when it's finally made some headway years from now might prove my abilities, I'm still debating hiding my gender though, lord knows something in it doesn't work right or it flops I'll get enough threats of rape or beating for making a mistake and daring to possess a uterus. (Is it any wonder females are afraid to DO?)

But why do you think this is still happening? What do men have to GAIN by keeping you down? Is it purely fear of competition? Or an underlying hatred for all women and a desire to see them excluded/pushed-down (i.e. blatant misogyny, which I doubt is the case).

Why are they not giving you the chance to prove your talent, and why would they threaten you with rape/violence if you failed - what do they have to GAIN from treating women like that? Typically people wouldn't to stuff like that without a cause, without a reason.

I don't believe you need to assume ill intent. Often it's just a subconscious bias, subconscious assumptions about women and their abilities relative to men's. Like, you know, imagine you're reviewing applications for a position in engineering, and then, subconsciously, all those stories, about men being better at maths, better at logical thinking, better with money, not so emotional, willing to work harder for their careers, and so on, all those stories start working in some corner of your brain and influence your decision for one of the applicants.
There might be truth in all those stories, but it would still be unfair to judge an individual by the average of the group he/she belongs to - especially if that group is 50% of the human population.

 

[CloudAtlas]

The bit about how if something is crap in her project she'll be criticised especially badly for being a woman/needing to root out people that 'behave poorly because sexist values'(whatever the hells that means):
"It's hard, therefore it's sexist"

Thing is, she wouldn't be the first women who faced gendered abuse for things just like that.

The bit about how chances aren't just offered to her:
"It's competitive, therefore it's sexist"

If you aren't offered the same chances just because you're a woman, that's the very definition of sexism. Chances, not outcomes, mind you. If you think this is not sexist, then you are sexist.

I read into it, I admit, but it's not like I'm 100% just making shit up here and she pretty much is blaming her job woes on sexism.

Exactly - you're reading into it. A lot. Her statement sounds to me that she's just saying she has it harder because she's a woman, not that her gender is the only reason why she struggles.

You haven't said she was right, that's true, but you've came out of the woodwork pretty damn hard at someone for no real reason(DEFINITELY NOT WHITE KNIGHTING), and that sends a message.

These accusations of white knighting are just cheap. If someone's behaving in a way that you think is not okay, aren't you supposed to stand up against this behavior? Well, in your world, where everyone is just supposed to "deal with it", probably not.

Edit:

@Yuuki- Just saw your post, genuinely apologise for what has amounted to a complete derailing of your thread. I had expected to be challenged by Charli directly, didn't see a full on duo coming my way.

You reap what you sow.

 

[Smeatza]

So it was only a matter of time before men created cinema - is that something that you can criticize or label as a "road that shouldn't be walked"? Something that wouldn't exist today if it hadn't happened back then? If anything film has only taken it's natural unstoppable course, like a slow-moving glacier.

Oh of course, I was referring more specifically to the way that the industry deals with criticism and controversy, today.
You hit the nail on the head when you call it an "unstoppable slow-moving glacier." While I would agree the industry is running its natural course, I wouldn't say that it's the best course it could take. Not for the industry and not for any surrounding issues.

There is a slight contradiction in this paragraph - if films with female directors gross the same amount with the same budget, then how can it possibly NOT get the same amount of acknowledgement and media attention? Success = money = attention = marketing, they are all directly linked especially in the film industry.

The film itself might, but the people involved in the production......
There are no "big name" female directors. I realise only a tiny fraction of male directors are "big name" directors and I realise there are legitimate reasons (like the lower number of female directors overall) that would partially account for the lack of "big name" female directors. But nothing that would account for their complete absence (with the possible exception of Kathryn Bigelow).

If a female director wins an Oscar, it means she has been recognized/acknowledged, she wouldn't need to bring up her gender at all. It would be as normal as a male director winning as Oscar, there would be nothing special about it.

Except for the fact that it would be the second time it's happened ever.
I was talking in a more general sense. For example, let's say it's the year 2000 and I'm receiving an Oscar for costume design or something. If as part of my acceptance speech I said something like "I think it's a shame that American Psycho has been overlooked for the award for best director, I can see no reason why besides the fact we don't like to nominate female directors."
Do you think I'd be invited back?
I can't honestly say, but I'm always hearing about how the Oscars are a measure of how much the judges personally like you, rather than an indication of skill or success. And if that is the case I can see how even slight criticism could hurt one's future chances.

I don't believe the industry/surrounding media is not acknowledging female directors, I believe there are virtually no female directors TO acknowledge. I mean look around movie sites like IMDB and RottenTomatoes, you could be forgiven to think that female directors barely exist.

That's what I thought till I started fact checking my posts.
But Boys Don't Cry, American Psycho, Monster and Zero Dark Thirty are all movies I've come across that have female directors and were overlooked for Oscar nominations. And those are just the films I've seen and recognise, I'm not even a movie buff.

The industry/media don't have that much control over what films gross, advertising is their one and only "persuasion" tool. They have nothing beyond that. It's the PEOPLE (i.e. consumers) who ultimately acknowledge movies, we acknowledge directors, we acknowledge success all by the sheer power of our wallets - we are the ones paying for all this and keeping it going.

Commercially yes but critically no. After all, Grown Ups 2 was a success and The Shawshank Redemption was not.

You're most likely onto something here. Industries that are old and established, just like traditions, are extremely rigid and conservative. A good example of this is the Japanese industry and the general Japanese method of thinking - don't fix what isn't broken, don't even THINK about changing something that is currently working fine. This is both a good thing (the industry is stable and doesn't' rollercoaster all over the place) but at the same time pretty terrible because old values/ideologies refuse to budge.
The fact that this isn't something like all-out open racism (e.g. black slavery) that literally stands out in a "holy shit this is just wrong!" kind of way, it's something far more subtle and difficult to change.

Very well put.

Amen to that. Gaming's only curse (it's youth) is also possibly it's greatest blessing, because we are seeing it flourish in a time of change and controversy, a time where people are pushing their freedom of speech to it's limits (and beyond) and the endless groups/demographics are rearing their heads and saying "what about us?".

The very fact that developers are AWARE of these kinds of discussions is already a sign of change. Whether they care about it or not is up to them. At the moment most developers are not really inclined to give a shit about any of this controversy because it is still coming from an absolute tiny minority who has little or no impact on sales. The great tidal-wave of consumers and the big publishers aren't inclined to care, because ultimately most of their questions are answered by our WALLETS, not words. That's how any market/products works on the grand scale, gaming is no different.

I agree and will add to that.
The video game industry is also in the unique position of being able to tailor its games to minority audiences without excluding others. The product can respond to the needs of the consumer on an individual, case-by-case basis.
Mr. Sterling touched on it in a recent episode of his, features such as character creation systems are unique to video games and can expand a potential audience into many minority areas without detracting from the game, or alienating the mainstream audience.

 

[Quadocky]

And when you got gamers nodding their heads to awful people like the Amazing Atheist or Thunderfoot in large numbers (or even that insufferable weirdo in that video in the OP) you pretty much got a recipe for a self-defeating disaster. One should not seek knowledge about feminism from a misogynist in the same way one should not seek knowledge about civil rights from a racist.

So someone disagrees with "feminism" that makes them automatically a "misogynist"?

Ok.

Not necessarily. But in a general sense a lot of people who 'disagree' with feminism are misogynists.

 

[Charli]

Doing. Consistently talked down to by my male peers and have to spend at least three times the time rooting out dependable, honest people to work with on projects who won't act and behave poorly based on their sexist values. Unable to speak out against such unfairness for fear of proving the 'point' you're trying to make here.

Funny little catch 22 going there.

Also Once I changed my CV to read Charlie, rather than Charli. I surprisingly got much more frequent calls for my talents. I was almost considering a voice changer for my phone interviews for fear of being told sheepishly that they weren't aware I was a female and try to shuffle out of giving me a chance to prove myself.

Talent cannot be proven without a chance. And those chances are not offered nearly at the 50/50 standard that it should, precisely because of ideals like that.

But then again maybe my opus project when it's finally made some headway years from now might prove my abilities, I'm still debating hiding my gender though, lord knows something in it doesn't work right or it flops I'll get enough threats of rape or beating for making a mistake and daring to possess a uterus. (Is it any wonder females are afraid to DO?)

No, you're unable to speak out against such unfairness because it isn't unfair, people on the bottom take shit from those above. Deal with it and give what you get, or see it in the spirit it's intended, cause it sounds to me like you may just have a massive chip on your shoulder cause you presumed every man that witnessed you would be floored by your glory and never give you and shit ever. When it happens to a man it's called paying your dues, starting from the bottom, working your way up...

Exact same thing happened to me in Canary Wharf for a few years. I walked in the end cause it just wasn't for me, but just before I had that breakdown I really would've liked to have had an option to cry sexism and get the people around me to fuck off and change for my specific benefit.

Life isn't fair sister. That's something men have been teaching their sons since time began. Life sucks and then you die. But you've been given an opportunity to prove yourself in a potentiall fulfilling, high-pressure, extremely competitive & prestigious role and why in the world did you think it would be easy?

That's a real question btw. I know we're supposed to be sympathetic to girls complaining that it's haaaaaard and people are meaaaaaan, fix it daddy!, but I'm just being honest.

I don't speak out though, the only places I do are on internet forums. And it isn't fair, and I've seen men move quite a lot faster though that 'paying your dues' period than women, but this is lost argument on you, I can tell. Carry on sir.

Guys please try to keep it civil in here, there's a lot of infractions/warnings getting handed out. Say whatever you want but do so without directly insulting anyone or going totally nuts. You know the rules, work with them.

Also Once I changed my CV to read Charlie, rather than Charli. I surprisingly got much more frequent calls for my talents. I was almost considering a voice changer for my phone interviews for fear of being told sheepishly that they weren't aware I was a female and try to shuffle out of giving me a chance to prove myself.

Talent cannot be proven without a chance. And those chances are not offered nearly at the 50/50 standard that it should, precisely because of ideals like that.

But then again maybe my opus project when it's finally made some headway years from now might prove my abilities, I'm still debating hiding my gender though, lord knows something in it doesn't work right or it flops I'll get enough threats of rape or beating for making a mistake and daring to possess a uterus. (Is it any wonder females are afraid to DO?)

But why do you think this is still happening? What do men have to GAIN by keeping you down? Is it purely fear of competition? Or an underlying hatred for all women and a desire to see them excluded/pushed-down (i.e. blatant misogyny, which I doubt is the case).

Why are they not giving you the chance to prove your talent, and why would they threaten you with rape/violence if you failed - what do they have to GAIN from treating women like that? Typically people wouldn't to stuff like that without a cause, without a reason.

I don't believe you need to assume ill intent. Often it's just a subconscious bias, subconscious assumptions about women and their abilities relative to men's. Like, you know, imagine you're reviewing applications for a position in engineering, and then, subconsciously, all those stories, about men being better at maths, better at logical thinking, better with money, not so emotional, willing to work harder for their careers, and so on, all those stories start working in some corner of your brain and influence your decision for one of the applicants.
There might be truth in all those stories, but it would still be unfair to judge an individual by the average of the group he/she belongs to - especially if that group is 50% of the human population.

Yes this exactly, it is not a malevolent, conniving intentional thing... it's a societal based expectation that most men and indeed quite a great deal of women just choose to not question or think about. You do things subconsciously and then wonder sometimes why you did it. It felt right? Why did it feel right? Because pretty much everyone has done it and 'that's the way it is'

I do not BLAME those that do these things, I do however call for them to analyze and perhaps try to think about why they think and feel such things and try to come up with a plausible reason for doing so. Often times you'll go 'oh...shit I AM being a bit misogynist or racist or x thing' and try to amend your behavior or attitude in future, ignorance doesn't make you a bad person... Willful and trying to justify your ignorance and turning a cheek to it though...that may make you a bad person.

 

[Robert Marrs]

And when you got gamers nodding their heads to awful people like the Amazing Atheist or Thunderfoot in large numbers (or even that insufferable weirdo in that video in the OP) you pretty much got a recipe for a self-defeating disaster. One should not seek knowledge about feminism from a misogynist in the same way one should not seek knowledge about civil rights from a racist.

So someone disagrees with "feminism" that makes them automatically a "misogynist"?

Ok.

Not necessarily. But in a general sense a lot of people who 'disagree' with feminism are misogynists.

That is a huge over generalization. That is like saying most feminists are just man haters with a chip on their shoulder. I personally disagree with feminism a vast majority of the time not because I hate women or think they are inferior but because I feel like as a whole the movement is completely dishonest. I used to call myself a feminist until I witnessed first hand the lying, statistic twisting, shaming tactics, and constant attempts at censoring anyone who disagreed with them. After taking a step back I realized something about feminism that I never noticed before. I will try to keep this as g-rated as possible and if you think you might be offended just stop reading now. Feminism is a group of middle class white women, living in western countries, demanding there privilige be enshrined in law, while simultaneously pretending to be victims and not(as is the case)the most pandered to, protected & pampered demographic in the western world. Im sorry this is completely off topic but it needed to be said. The majority of people against feminism have nothing against women. They just know more about feminism then most.

 

[Quadocky]

And when you got gamers nodding their heads to awful people like the Amazing Atheist or Thunderfoot in large numbers (or even that insufferable weirdo in that video in the OP) you pretty much got a recipe for a self-defeating disaster. One should not seek knowledge about feminism from a misogynist in the same way one should not seek knowledge about civil rights from a racist.

So someone disagrees with "feminism" that makes them automatically a "misogynist"?

Ok.

Not necessarily. But in a general sense a lot of people who 'disagree' with feminism are misogynists.

That is a huge over generalization. That is like saying most feminists are just man haters with a chip on their shoulder. I personally disagree with feminism a vast majority of the time not because I hate women or think they are inferior but because I feel like as a whole the movement is completely dishonest. I used to call myself a feminist until I witnessed first hand the lying, statistic twisting, shaming tactics, and constant attempts at censoring anyone who disagreed with them. After taking a step back I realized something about feminism that I never noticed before. I will try to keep this as g-rated as possible and if you think you might be offended just stop reading now. Feminism is a group of middle class white women, living in western countries, demanding there privilige be enshrined in law, while simultaneously pretending to be victims and not(as is the case)the most pandered to, protected & pampered demographic in the western world. Im sorry this is completely off topic but it needed to be said. The majority of people against feminism have nothing against women. They just know more about feminism then most.

That is more of a 'problematic issue' than a result of feminism. Feminism stands alone like any other school of thought. As in, there may be bad feminists, but feminism in itself is not bad.