Feminism in Storytelling

[atalanta]

Ai yi yi.

Alright, to start things off: there's no One True Definition of feminism. I'm a feminist; some of my fellow feminists think I've bought into the patriarchy because I think transwomen are women too, while others think I'm a fun-destroying man-hating hag because I think poledancing is wildly problematic. Also, feminists get to disagree with each other (and frequently do, at great and angry length)! Bearing that in mind --

Personally, I don't believe in the critique of the wo-men trope. For starters, feminists often target the misconception that women are inherently mysterious, but in the criticism of "wo-men" they seem to be suggesting that such characters are lacking an intangible attribute without which they are just men with racks. Where do you fall? And are there any feminists out there that could give their opinion?

Yeah, I don't really get that wo-man thing either. I checked the comment thread to see if the OP explained that more clearly, but I didn't see any clarification.

The biggest thing for me is that not-awful portrayals of women have to show them as people. They need to have motivations, goals, and desires, and they have to do stuff other than stand around looking pretty. I'm fine with characters who really don't accomplish anything -- I've got a soft spot for Fuchsia from the Gormenghast novels roughly the size of Australia -- so long as they're still fleshed out and believable.

The other -- okay, so. There are certain tropes and stereotypes that are applied to female characters so often and so poorly that the book (or movie or whatever) has to be really, really good to avoid getting chucked out the window. In my opinion the big danger signs are rape, lesbians either being evil or dying tragically, or women being killed (maimed, hurt, kidnapped, what have you) solely so the male character can angst about it.

On the subject of Joss Whedon -- he's very fond of women who need rescuing, women and sex in the Whedonverse go together like napalm and nursery school, and not a single fully independent adult woman (with the exception of Willow and Buffy) escaped B:TVS or A:TS alive. Also, that evil/dead lesbian thing, that kind of sucked.

I think a lot of feminists tend to either give Joss a pass on his Issues or judge him twice as harshly as everyone else; he's one of the few vocal media-making feminists and he gets it more than most, which makes it doubly irritating when he fucks up. If Judd Apatow puts some 2D stereotypical shrill, hysterical shrew of a woman into his next movie, whatever, it's not like I expected anything better; it's much more disappointing if Joss kills a lesbian.

 

[Sleekgiant]

Well if you are a writer, you should base characters off what you know, not some image the feminists are trying to shove down your throat.

 

[Sylocat]

On the subject of Joss Whedon -- he's very fond of women who need rescuing, women and sex in the Whedonverse go together like napalm and nursery school, and not a single fully independent adult woman (with the exception of Willow and Buffy) escaped B:TVS or A:TS alive. Also, that evil/dead lesbian thing, that kind of sucked.

I think a lot of feminists tend to either give Joss a pass on his Issues or judge him twice as harshly as everyone else; he's one of the few vocal media-making feminists and he gets it more than most, which makes it doubly irritating when he fucks up. If Judd Apatow puts some 2D stereotypical shrill, hysterical shrew of a woman into his next movie, whatever, it's not like I expected anything better; it's much more disappointing if Joss kills a lesbian.

Most of the men in Joss's shows also need rescuing at one time or another, and I can't describe most of the men who survived B:tVS and A:TS as "fully independent adult," at least not in terms of emotional stability.

(and to be fair, the dreaded Season Six was run by Marti Noxon)

 

[snide_cake]

I'm a writer too and I have to admit it's very hard to write female characters. You are constantly aware of how you're portraying them. Male characters get it a lot easier, there's a lot more cultural and social lee-way for them so it's not going to cast too much negativity on them if they sleep around or are totally monogamous, for example.

You have a female character do the same - sleep around a lot, embracing her sexuality and being confident in the bedroom - and there's a certain amount of stigma attached to that. Even if society is all for allowing women to embrace themselves and explore themselves in the bedroom, it's still not as accepted as males doing the same.

That's just one example, and I'm sure I could write an entire thesis on the idea that men and women are different beasts to write with, and their portrayal in both novels and films have helped shaped our perception. We're trying to throw it off as a society, but it's hard to do it.

And then there are people like Stephanie Meyer who write into those stereotypes, perpetuating something that feminists and modern novelists alike have been striving against for so long. The target audience might be 14-24 yr olds but there are Twi-mums out there who lap it all up and it just sends that message out stronger to everyone - that women should be the bitchy damsel in distress, moping around wanting to kill herself when her knight in sparkling armour isn't around.

The whole 'wo-man' thing is really strange, and it only makes it harder to write female characters. You sit there going 'Okay, I'm going to write her just like I write male characters, because they are just that - characters - but then is someone going to judge her as being a 'wo-man' because she's written just like the male characters?'. It's a comment that just makes me as a writer shake my head in confusion and ask "well how else am I supposed to write a female character?"

In the end you just need to write for yourself. Basing characters off people or other characters is always a good start, it gives you a realistic ' what would ________ do?' and it might not be what your character ends up doing, but it gives you a starting point.

 

[Riven Armor]

[snip]

Thanks for your thoughts, in particular fleshing out the "flesh-out" point. I'm not familiar with Joss's work in Buffy, just Firefly - which I'm a pretty big fan of despite my aforementioned problems with River and the annoying racial exclusion of Asians (I'm half-Asian). I'm curious, how do you feel about Objects in Space? Do you think there's a case to be made for the episode promoting a dangerous idea of black masculinity in comparison to white female frailty wrt Kailee and Jubal Early?

 

[Riven Armor]

[snip]

The whole 'wo-man' thing is really strange, and it only makes it harder to write female characters. You sit there going 'Okay, I'm going to write her just like I write male characters, because they are just that - characters - but then is someone going to judge her as being a 'wo-man' because she's written just like the male characters?'. It's a comment that just makes me as a writer shake my head in confusion and ask "well how else am I supposed to write a female character?"

Yeah, really! I have yet to here an exhaustive defense of the exact problems certain feminists have with "wo-men." Just supports what you said in your first paragraph - there's a mile more leeway with men than women. A few people have criticized Schwarzenegger characters as emblematic of a dangerously overmasculinized ideal, but not many.

Haven't read Twilight, and based on what I've been hearing about it, I probably never will. Besides that, your last bit of advice makes me think about Piro and his comment that he usually never tries to incorporate women he knows in real life in Megatokyo. I really don't know why he considers that disrespectful.

 

[Hallow'sEve]

Well, you could always sign up for a class in feminism, that's what I'll be doing next semester. I figure I can get behind enemy lines and learn their secrets, then create games tailored to them and make a fortune.

 

[Layz92]

I honestly don't care. Chauvinists of both sides (look up the definition) can rack off and leave me alone. I don't care what gender they are, if a character is enjoyable I'll read them. People should really stop caring whether a character is going to offend someone. Also stereotypes are just for people too lazy to write a deep character or possibly just making a character to be gunned down in the next room or sadly departing to a far off country/planet to never see one of the main characters again.

 

[Riven Armor]

Well, you could always sign up for a class in feminism, that's what I'll be doing next semester. I figure I can get behind enemy lines and learn their secrets, then create games tailored to them and make a fortune.

I did, and I left less muddled than I started, but still muddled.

 

[atalanta]

Most of the men in Joss's shows also need rescuing at one time or another, and I can't describe most of the men who survived B:tVS and A:TS as "fully independent adult," at least not in terms of emotional stability.

(and to be fair, the dreaded Season Six was run by Marti Noxon)

I don't mean need rescuing as in they run into trouble and need Buffy or Zoe to roll in and save the day -- sure, the men need rescuing in that sense all the time. I mean rescuing as in, they're broken in some fundamental way and need to be saved from themselves -- River, Fred, Willow, and Buffy all go completely to pieces at one point or another and need to be pieced back together, and usually by a man.

(Oh jeez, don't even get me started on Marti Noxon. Watching someone work out their issues on cable TV is never pretty. She was also the person responsible for the one episode of Buffy I actively disliked -- ugh, everything about "Into the Woods" was a goddamn trainwreck. (And yeah, I know it's a little unfair to be blaming Season Six Buffy on Joss, but it's not like he was totally out of the loop on what was going on.))

As for surviving -- man, I dunno, nobody escaped without scars, but the women just flat-out didn't escape. Cordelia, after she grew up; Lilah; Tara, who for a while had the dubious honour of being the only rational adult in Sunnydale; Joyce; Darla, but not before she was turned good by the power of being pregnant; Anya, after she came to terms with her relationship with Xander and finding purpose as a human; and Fred, after de-crazying, getting her own lab, and while starting to work out her issues. Obviously I'm not saying Joss should never kill a lady ever, but having one or two of them not die horribly would have been nice.

 

[snide_cake]

A few people have criticized Schwarzenegger characters as emblematic of a dangerously overmasculinized ideal, but not many.

Schwarzenegger characters and He-man are just a couple of examples of overmasculinized and unrealistic ideals in our culture, but they seem more accepted than female characters who are trying to break the mold.

Haven't read Twilight, and based on what I've been hearing about it, I probably never will.

I asked my best friend if I should read it, and she said a firm no. That I would hate it due to there being nearly no plot for the first half of the first book. But from what I've seen and heard I know I would not like it.

Apparently there is a huge chunk of one of the books where there are just blank pages, because Bella (as it's written from her POV) deemed there nothing worthy of writing about, when Edward was away for a long period of time. If that's true then ...ugh. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Watching the first movie was bad enough for me... Bad acting coupled with a poor script based off terrible self-insert writing. The actors didn't really stand a chance.

Your last bit of advice makes me think about Piro and his comment that he usually never tries to incorporate women he knows in real life in Megatokyo

I tried to find Piro's comment but couldn't in this thread, unless I'm just not looking hard enough

I suppose it's a valid point though, if there is the possibility that they may recognise themselves being portrayed by a character and feel you may think low of them? Or have unrealistic perceptions of them? I'm not sure.

One of my friends is a writer and she told me she bases a couple of characters off my quirks etc. It doesn't mean that when I read those characters I immediately think she envisions me behaving in such a way. It's flattering and it's a solid starting point for her, like it could be for a lot of writers.

But I can see that if a non-writer was reading those passages (or someone who doesn't fully comprehend how inspirations can work?) that they might take it the wrong way, and in that way it could be perceived as being disrespectful to them.

Do you think there's a case to be made for the episode promoting a dangerous idea of black masculinity in comparison to white female frailty wrt Kailee and Jubal Early?

And I know this question wasn't directed at me, but it's an interesting question anyways, and one that you could find may be applicable to the entire Serenity movie.

(And I do apologise to any who feel the use of black and white is a racial thing, when I use it as a distinguishing tool.)

Where the dominating force (The Alliance) is largely represented by a black man, and he, acting on behalf of a they, is after a white female, broken in mind. Can she only evade his black masculinity with the aid of her crew (predominately white males)? Does this subliminaly say to us that a white female is only as strong as her fellow white men in the face of adversity?

We see that River's final battle is not against the black man, symbolic in his domineering masculinity. It is in fact Captain Mal, symbolic of white masculinity, and of course we know that white versus black has been reinforced into our collective subconscious for eons. In the end white triumphs over black and the little white girl is free.

------

Ah, that was kind of refreshing - I've not done this sort of study on narratives for a while So thanks for the great thought-provoking post there.

 

[Sylocat]

I don't mean need rescuing as in they run into trouble and need Buffy or Zoe to roll in and save the day -- sure, the men need rescuing in that sense all the time. I mean rescuing as in, they're broken in some fundamental way and need to be saved from themselves -- River, Fred, Willow, and Buffy all go completely to pieces at one point or another and need to be pieced back together, and usually by a man.

Again, several of the male characters have the exact same problem... most notably Angel himself, as well as Spike, Xander and Riley.

(Oh jeez, don't even get me started on Marti Noxon. Watching someone work out their issues on cable TV is never pretty. She was also the person responsible for the one episode of Buffy I actively disliked -- ugh, everything about "Into the Woods" was a goddamn trainwreck. (And yeah, I know it's a little unfair to be blaming Season Six Buffy on Joss, but it's not like he was totally out of the loop on what was going on.))

Yeah... Marti Noxon does have quite a few issues, doesn't she? It's sad, you know, most of the problems in that season were actually based on her own life.

As for surviving -- man, I dunno, nobody escaped without scars, but the women just flat-out didn't escape. Cordelia, after she grew up; Lilah; Tara, who for a while had the dubious honour of being the only rational adult in Sunnydale; Joyce; Darla, but not before she was turned good by the power of being pregnant; Anya, after she came to terms with her relationship with Xander and finding purpose as a human; and Fred, after de-crazying, getting her own lab, and while starting to work out her issues. Obviously I'm not saying Joss should never kill a lady ever, but having one or two of them not die horribly would have been nice.

A slightly better point here, but the ratio of male deaths to female deaths wasn't THAT much lower. In B:tVS and A:tS, maybe (though many of the surviving males weren't exactly well-off by the end), but in Firefly and Dollhouse, the ratio was about 3 to 1 in favor of male deaths.

 

[Pseudonym2]

I'm used to River Tam being defined by her mental illness rather than her gender. In fact, River and her brother represent a gender reversed relationship between my mother and my uncle. Like River, my uncle is a very sweet homicidal schizophrenic. Most of his relatives alternate between loving him, fearing him, and being creeped out by him. Just like river he can still fight the good fight on occasion when he's lucid.

Come to think of it. None of characters on the cracked list count as feminist characters. That's far more disturbing.

 

[atalanta]

Thanks for your thoughts, in particular fleshing out the "flesh-out" point. I'm not familiar with Joss's work in Buffy, just Firefly - which I'm a pretty big fan of despite my aforementioned problems with River and the annoying racial exclusion of Asians (I'm half-Asian).

I'm half-Asian too and that really bothered me. I'm pretty sure the only Asian with a speaking role was one of the hookers in Heart of Gold, which, uh. Also, the shot of someone grilling meat with the "GOOD DOGS" sign right above it made me cringe.

I'm curious, how do you feel about Objects in Space? Do you think there's a case to be made for the episode promoting a dangerous idea of black masculinity in comparison to white female frailty wrt Kailee and Jubal Early?

Why, what about a big scary black dude threatening a cute little white woman with rape and murder could possibly ruffle anyone's feathers? (By which I mean, yes, very much so.)

 

[VondeVon]

I actually find it really difficult to enjoy female protagonists.

There are exceptions, of course, but for the most part I've found that you're more likely to have 'obligatory love interest' in movies or books with female leads. Males have a lot of them too, but more often they're absent or clearly superfluous.

This is obviously way WAY too broad a statement. An example of a female character I was.. annoyed to read, was Brin from the Shannara series. She had the ability to sing reality into whatever she wanted it to be. To balance this massive power, of course, was a tragic memory where she sang a tree into bloom in the wrong season and killed it. This was obviously emotionally scarring enough that she refused to use her power afterwards and when she was required to fulfill her epic quest quota, she relied on her two protectors and only sang when they fell first.

In comparison, her little brother Jair (who also had the power, but could only create illusions with it) had no problem using his power. When he was dutifully questing ala Lord of the Rings, he used his power often and creatively.

So, because Brin was more powerful, she couldn't use her power too much? It made things too easy? What a cop-out. She wasn't clever or dedicated enough to work out how to use her formidable power without hurting people?

At the end of the day, I got the impression that she was lazy and more than a little self righteous. I just didn't like her.

I dunno, maybe it was easier to write a character 'limited' the way Jair was. Still seems like lazy writing.

Firefly on the other hand (which I'm in the middle of watching) seems to cover a range of female types - there isn't JUST the wo-man, there's the sensual wise and beautiful 'companion', the innocent, bubbly and lovable mechanic and the conflicted, super-talented slightly dreamy Mary Sue.

I honestly don't think there's much wrong with these stereotypes - they're obviously popular and maybe they reflect trends in real life. They reflect how we perceive women, and they're certainly two dimensional, but if Firefly spent the whole time pointing out hidden depths, nothing would ever happen.

Besides, it's not like males aren't stereotyped as well. The strong silent one, the witty fun one, the skinny goofy one, the aggro one, the big muscles/heart of gold one....

 

[Scobie]

DELETED

 

[Mozared]

Hmmm. Slap me silly if this sounds ridiculous, but I always found female characters the most interesting if they are precisely NOT feminist. If they are the wo-man types they bring virtually nothing to the story, aside from showing us how equal and awesome woman are when compared to men - which is something I don't need to be shown as I already know it anyway. When women are actually women in a piece of fiction, that's when they're interesting.

I appreciated Arwens role in LOTR because she was a woman with love as her story, not because she was an awesome swordfighter. Sure, it 'proved' to me that women can also be awesome swordfighters, but this didn't need proving.

 

[Shock and Awe]

I had a conversation with another lesbian feminist sister at the International Feminist Summit

I lost 95% of my respect for the writer about there.