FFXV: The first "true" Final Fantasy?

[Jewpacabra]

Ok, so this is going to be peppered with personal opinion, with the only facts cited being subjective recollection, but here it goes:
I think I finally get where Square is going with Final Fantasy XV.
See, when I first saw a trailer for it, probably still during its Versus XIII infancy, I was struck by how different it seemed from previous entries, with its full action game play, free mostly of ATB bars and menus. It struck me as a blend of Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy, which immediately piqued my interest. Sure, the story of Kingdom Hearts can be trite and cringe-worthy, but it has very solid game play that has evolved from just mashing an attack button, to a battle system that, like the Final Fantasy series, changed and evolved with each subsequent iteration. But does still focus on mashing an attack button, not gonna deny that.
I have been fooled before however, and that sting isn't going away. I first assumed that this was going to be the style with which the battles in FFXIII would be undertaken, and in a way, it was. Except there was no free movement and if you were really into the game you could hit the attack button. Or just mess with your character and parties AI and let them fight the battles while you went off and did literally anything else. And that was shite, I think we can all agree. Cool, you disagree with me and you do like FFXIII, that's fine, that's your opinion.
There are also those who believe that it's not a Final Fantasy game without turn-based combat and to that, I ask, really? Do you really think that when the first Final Fantasy was being made they could have had full motion action based combat and just didn't because they liked the concept of turn based combat so very much? Turn based combat is something you use to disguise things like technical limitations. It's a simulation of what you wish could be happening on screen. Do we really think in a high stakes battle for the future of your species/planet/reality/whatever the fuck else would be carried out with each side patiently waiting their turn to strike?Which is why I say, and this is incredibly dependant on the game not being a giant bag of farts that was sold with a pretty, pretty new trailer, this may be the first "true" Final Fantasy.
Put own your torches and pitchforks, I'm not saying that previous titles are somehow less worthy of being considered a Final Fantasy game, but in terms of the least amount of compromises that a creator/director has had to make to realise their vision, I think this one is it. Think about it. Remember that trailer with Noctus running towards the Leviathan? Remember playing other Final Fantasy games, fighting similar enemies that were only slightly larger than your character? And something in the back of your mind thought it was kind of ridiculous, but hey, what else could they have done at the time? And now it looks like not only are things to scale, you can teleport around quickly and maybe jump on its back Shadow of The Colossus style and actually fight it, not just select the "Attack" option over and over again? That's what I mean by the first "True" FF game. I'm not trying to dismiss all other previous ones, hell, I'm a massive fan of most of them, I'm just saying this looks like a fantastic step forward for the series, and since the game play is looking tight, hopefully they actually focus on story and not making it a unwieldy, terrible mess (FFXIII again), because unless it's getting the Alien; Colonial Marines "vertical slice trailer" treatment (And being Square I'm not totally convinced this isn't the case) this should be a very interesting game.

What about everyone else, do you all think that this game has the chance to show what a Final Fantasy game could be if it lived up to it's potential?

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well the only way it can be a "true" Final Fantasy is by ending the series... which I highly doubt anyone intends to do.
So I imagine what you actually mean is "this game looks decent enough to play".

 

[Jewpacabra]

Well the only way it can be a "true" Final Fantasy is by ending the series...

I didn't even think of that. And I meant more in the sense that this could be the game where the dev's vision is diluted the least through game play limitations.
Although it now raises Theseus' paradox in my mind. How much can be taken out and replaced and still be called "Final Fantasy"?

 

[go-10]

the first true Final Fantasy was the first one, everything after that has just been a retelling of the same story with different characters in a different setting. Think about it, every game features a group of misfits that should not work together putting asides their differences overcoming their own demons to make a force that will ultimately defeat the "giant space god" and save the world.
Every FF has the same structure, meet the characters, defeat X corporation/religion/evil people in a set order until the giant space god arrives and you now must kill it to save the world. They all work the same way

so unless XV doesn't feature a giant space god, I can't see how it'll be any different than the other FF

 

[FootloosePhoenix]

Every Final Fantasy game has been exactly what it intended to be, for better or worse. I don't think chalking the early games up to technical limitations does the series, or turn-based combat in general, justice. Now you're not explicitly saying this OP, but your post reminds me I've always disagreed with the notion that turn-based combat in JRPGs is a relic of the past and the combat system needs to be changed to something more action-oriented because of that. Turn-based combat is a design choice and it can be a damn great one. Final Fantasy X has one of the most well thought-out battle systems I've ever seen and it's even more "truly" turn-based compared to many of its predecessors with the ATB system. I've never heard the same logic applied to strategy or other games that worked well with old technology. It's fine if you (the general you) aren't a fan of turn-based combat; I understand it's a very love it or hate it kind of deal. But it just gets my goat when people say it should be done away with altogether. It's like if I said modern military shooters should be phased out because they're not "realistic" enough or something like that, or there shouldn't be any heavily narrative games such as Heavy Rain because they're not "real" games.

However, I do believe Final Fantasy XV will be the first really great main entry to the series in over a decade, so on that level I agree with you. And if you'll pardon me being somewhat anal, it's spelled Noctis, not Noctus.

 

[elvor0]

No. Because this implies that the ATB system or turn based systems are something to be gotten rid of for the creators vision to be "True", it implies that games before XV were less pure than what the creator...created. Final Fantasy 13 is no less a Final Fantasy game than 9 is(13 is still terrible though), 9 is no less pure than 15. They are as true as their creators wanted them to be. They arn't retroactively diminished because the developers didn't cater to people wanting action games, regardless of them not being the target audience for the games.

True, for the first 6 games, ATB/turn based was the way to go, but they could've abandoned that come the PS1 era and they didn't, they haven't completely abandoned it till now, even 12 and 13 had some form of ATB system. I like the ATB system, people like the ATB system, people like turn based.

(As an aside)Fuck me, 13 was a step backwards from 12. No positioning, no AI settings, only one controllable character and thus didn't work how it was intended to work at all. It's a lesson in how NOT to design combat mechanics.

Look, you like the look of the game, that's fine. But don't act as if this is a good "leap forward" for the series. It's a numbered Final Fantasy game, people expect Chocobos, Summons, Moogles, Thundaga and stonking big ATB systems. Ripping out a core component of the series is not progress. It's selling out because despite the legions of fans you have, you feel ashamed of yourself for some reason and keep trying to westernize yourself while alienating the people who made you popular in the first place. The sales you'll lose from fans turned off far outweigh the sales you /MIGHT/ gain from non fans who likely don't follow Final Fantasy in the first place. They've already turned me and many others off with FF13, I have no assurance at all that 15 will be any good what so ever.

A nice example would be the XCOM reboot:

"We're going to make a shooter out of an established franchise, that's what everyone wants!" says company,
"NOOO, we like turn based games!" says the fans. Non fans go "XCOM, what's that? Oh well, I don't care!"
XCOM Enemy Unknown is released, game sells like millions, is beloved by all. XCOM The Beuro comes out, luke warm sales and reception.
"Well don't we look red faced!" says company.

This is even worse with Square Enix, who just fucking released Bravely Default, which sold very well for a new IP, and they were "shocked" that people still liked JRPGs, well fucking DUH, Square, it's what your comapny was built on! It's why people still clamour for an HD remake of Final Fantasy 7 almost two decades later!

 

[Urgh76]

No. Because this implies that the ATB system or turn based systems are something to be gotten rid of for the creators vision to be "True", it implies that games before XV were less pure than what the creator...created. Final Fantasy 13 is no less a Final Fantasy game than 9 is, 9 is no less pure than 15. They are as true as their creators wanted them to be. They arn't retroactively diminished because the developers didn't cater to people wanting action games, regardless of them not being the target audience for the games.

True, for the first 6 games, ATB/turn based was the way to go, but they could've abandoned that come the PS1 era and they didn't, they haven't completely abandoned it till now, even 12 and 13 had some form of ATB system. I like the ATB system, people like the ATB system, people like turn based.

Fuck me, 13 was a step backwards from 12. No positioning, no AI settings, only one controllable character and thus didn't work how it was intended to work at all. It's a lesson in how NOT to design combat mechanics.

Look, you like the look of the game, that's fine. But don't act as if this is a good "leap forward" for the series. It's a numbered Final Fantasy game, people expect Chocobos, Summons, Moogles, Thundaga and stonking big ATB systems. Ripping out a core component of the series is not progress. It's selling out because despite the legions of fans you have, you feel ashamed of yourself for some reason and keep trying to westernize yourself while alienating the people who made you popular in the first place.

This man knows what he's talking about.

Even if Squaresoft did feel as OP has stated about their games; that is essentially what they've become.

If they do feel some sort of remorse about it and want to implement a new system completely doing away with the ATB, all they have to do is set it aside and simply not call it Final Fantasy.

 

[ScrabbitRabbit]

Do you really think that when the first Final Fantasy was being made they could have had full motion action based combat and just didn't because they liked the concept of turn based combat so very much?

It isn't like action games didn't already exist back then.

The majority of my favourite games tend towards being turn-based. I enjoy turn-based games, I find turn-based combat fun.

Your point falls apart when you consider that they continued to use turn-based combat during the PS1 and PS2 entries. There are plenty of fast-paced, even large scale action games from that time period. They wanted to make turn-based games. That was their vision.

I'm not altogether that fussed that Final Fantasy XV is going to be an action game - they've been moving in that direction for a while, anyway and it does look fun - but let's not pretend that real-time combat is somehow an objectively superior choice. I doubt it's going to replace Final Fantasy X or Tactics for my favourite combat systems in the series.

 

[Rariow]

I see the answer to what you're saying in two ways: First, you argue that the game is more like what the developers imagined in their heads because of the new combat system, but that's been true of every new Final Fantasy. As technology advanced, the devs got more power to make their games more like what they want.

And second, you argue that just because the ATB/turn based combat system was brought about by limitations of the time, and likely wouldn't have been implemented if they'd had the capabilities, it's not an integral part of the series. I beg to differ. Just because something was grudgingly added because of limitations doesn't mean its better than the less limited alternative. The Final Fantasy series grew to embrace the ATB system, at least until X rolled around, and there was a time when it was implemented as ATB technical limitations be damned. Do you really think that during the PS1 era you couldn't create something similar to what XV is looking to be? There were some good, fast-moving action games on the PS1, and if the people running Final Fantasy at that time thought that's what the series needed, it would've had it. When most people think Final Fantasy, they think ATB. ATB is integral to making Final Fantasy be Final Fantasy for a very large proportion of its playerbase. Even if the devs disagree, a large proportion of the audience will disagree, and they're no less correct than the devs are (death of the author and all that). Sure, it isn't realistic for people to stand around waiting for the other side to make a move in a war scenario, but these are videogames, and I'd much rather they sacrifice realism for fun than the other way around.

What annoys me the most about the way FFXV is looking is the fact that we've got plenty of action games, but no good, old-school style RPGs. Don't come saying no one wants them, either, Bravely Default sold brilliantly, and, a few weird quirks notwithstanding, is pretty much exactly what a large amount of the Final Fantasy playerbase wants XV to be like.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Don't you mean true "final" fantasy since the franchise has turned to BS and chips?
And I I still will take turn base or pause and command with AI toggles ala gambit system without the collecting the toggles system than iffy group real time action with no strategy involved..

 

[Jewpacabra]

Now you're not explicitly saying this OP, but your post reminds me I've always disagreed with the notion that turn-based combat in JRPGs is a relic of the past and the combat system needs to be changed to something more action-oriented because of that.

I agree. As much as I am a fan of more action oriented games, there is definitely a place today for turn based games. I'm glad people picked up on how I was not actively trying to trash turn based concepts.

Do you really think that when the first Final Fantasy was being made they could have had full motion action based combat and just didn't because they liked the concept of turn based combat so very much?

It isn't like action games didn't already exist back then.

With large arenas, free roaming and the depth to combat that Final Fantasy had when it came out? I'm not being a dick here, if such a game existed back then, point me it's way, it sounds friggin sweet.

There are plenty of fast-paced, even large scale action games from that time period.

Again, point me in their direction, I would love to experience that.


I also feel I may chosen my title poorly, with "true" I'm not referring to a titles "worthiness" or whether it should still be retroactively considered a Final Fantasy game because of it's battle system, I just mean in terms of steps and compromises for a story/game/experience/whatever to reach realisation after being conceived, this one seems to be the most direct. I'm not saying that previous editions were hampered or anything by the limitations, hell, studios tend to flourish with limitations, we've all seen that it just seems now there are no more limitations.

 

[Danny Dowling]

1-6 were the true games of the series for me. the DS/PSP/iOS versions of FF III is a representation of exactly what an FF game should be imo

 

[Caostotale]

Whatever FFXV represents in terms of the series' 'evolution' (assuming that such a long-term concern matters to the game makers at all is a huge overstatement), to me, game's style and its gameplay both look like garbage and only serve to underscore my opinion that the console-JRPG is now completely severed from its roots. In terms of the game's look, they're once again doubling down on the soulless Tetsuya Nomura school of design, where every character's a Roman statue decked out with some random colored hair and an insane and ridiculous fashion sense. The gameplay is basically the gameplay analogue to those stupid outfits, doubling and tripling down on the ball-numbing type of action that the fanboys crave (i.e. I'm knowingly cribbing that line from the Plinkett review of Phantom Menace, which levels the same criticism at the lightsaber battles from that shitty movie).

Having just watched the gameplay trailer, all I take away from it is that Square-Enix is continuing to act embarrassed that their greatest success came from making turn-based JRPGs that just happen to be a little more slow-paced than most triple-A action games from the same periods. While I can well understand that they're just another capitalist company trying to maximize their profits (and with this level of pandering, they most certainly will), but I can't quite understand why some fans of the series refuse to admit that the series has almost completely lost touch with the things that made it special in the first place.

For me, the funniest thing is where the trailer goes out of its way to state that 'This is a fantasy based on reality.' Really, now, you could have fooled me. That 5-foot-long sword that dude is wielding just screams realistic as hell, as does that part where the character is teleporting and fighting his way up the side of a building like Night Crawler.

My personal disinterest lay mostly in the fact that the game just looks like another big headache like all of those over-stylized FFXIII games and the modern Tales games where you're hacking and slashing away while your AI teammates are going crazy, all to the sounds of upbeat heavy metal music. Having grown up in the SNES/Genesis/Turbo-Grafx era, part of why I enjoyed games like FFIV, FFVI, and Chrono Trigger (and later, my favorite of the series FFV, when that showed up on PSX) was because they weren't balls-to-the-wall action-packed games that kept you at the edge of your seat and got your blood pumping. To be sure, there were tons of other genres that did that shit better and they still do it better now (i.e. if I want to see a shitload of blasting lights and numbers flying everywhere, I'll gladly play a half-hour of the newest Dodonpachi game). Past or present, if I want a good action experience, I'll play something like a shmup or a racing game. For me, JRPGs were always at their best when they were either consequence-heavy turn-based affairs (i.e. Dragon Quest, SMT, tactical RPGs) or when they made exploration and storytelling a strong focus (16-bit FF titles, Wild ARMS, Skies of Arcadia).

Nowadays, all the best turn-based JRPGs have gone handheld and the console games just seem like a bunch of over-caffeinated pandering towards ADD-addled teenagers who need big ice-cream-scoops of Uncharted, DMC, etc.. in order to get through a RPG without getting bored.

 

[DirgeNovak]

Paragraphs are your friends. Use them please.

Turn based combat is something you use to disguise things like technical limitations. It's a simulation of what you wish could be happening on screen.

No, turn based combat allows a level of control and strategy that real time action could never reach.

Since they abandoned turn based combat after X, all FF titles have sacrificed player input to look more impressive: XII had the gambit system that let you program your teammates's AI when you're not controlling them, XIII had paradigm shifts that let you switch character's AI between six routines, and from what I've read so far, XV will just have AI-controlled teammates while you control one character.

Say what you will about turn based combat being "each side patiently waiting their turn to strike", but at least with it you have a clean and simple way to control what happens in the battle. There's no way in hell XV's combat will give me as much control as X's. Sure, it'll look really impressive, but three quarters of the fight will have been done by AI since I'm only controlling one of four characters. That's not what I'm looking for in a Final Fantasy game.

 

[Sidewalker]

I agree with your pessimism, DirgeNovak, that XV will give the combat control of X. And your next point, that 75% of the battle being completed by the AI is really fluff (my words not yours). I'm not a fan of letting the computer do my work for me. If I want that, I'll go back to simulating Tecmo Bowl seasons.

Where I think Final Fantasy lost touch was with XIII. To me, that's where the series hit the point of no return. I played VII through XIII, and I think I, II and III way way back, but XIII mimicked World of Warcraft 5 man dungeons so much that I could barely play it. Now, XII's gambit system was the gray area. I loved *and* hated it. Once I mastered my play style and what I wanted, I never minded it. I still had enough control. But the way the party dynamics (tank/dps/heals) were implemented in XIII, I thought they hit the fork in the road and instead of choosing more control, they chose less control.

I love the FF series. FFX was the first game I logged 200 hours on. And I was damn close with FFVII. FFX marked my junior and senior year of college and I was on bed rest from surgery from most of it, and all those hours I wanted to be out and about, I poured into Blitzball and rebuilding the entire sphere grid. I haven't wanted to do anything of that sort since then. I had some fun times with XII, but XIII was painful.

I have an English degree from a tough university. I have a Masters degree now too. I still don't know what the hell XIII's story was even about. It was like they tried to Tarantino the plot line but never actually brought the beginning to the end.

I'm hoping XV is really good. But I'll settle for passable after what they did to XIII. That would be an upgrade.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I agree because Final Fantasy (main series) has never had combat strategic enough to merit being turn-based. For example, FFXII (which is hated) is literally just FFX's battle system (which is beloved) when you look at it under-the-hood. All FFXII did was allow you to program in a few if-then-else statements (AKA Gambits) for the AI. Yeah, you can program FFXII to play itself. However, if FFX had gambits, you could also program FFX to play itself. If you can program a game to play itself with a few if-then-else statements, then how can you call it strategic? You can't program AI to play Chess with only a few if-then-else statements. The main reason the FF games aren't strategic is because positioning isn't important, thus a lot of strategic potential is completely gone. Positioning is very important in a good turn-based combat system like DnD or XCOM.

The FF games have always seemed to be in a weird middle ground where they are trying to be strategic yet fast-paced at the same time while never committing to either side. Pick a freaking side because you can't have your cake and eat it to. I want the series to either go very action-based or slow it down and be very tactical, I really don't have a preference for either way.

No, turn based combat allows a level of control and strategy that real time action could never reach.

Since they abandoned turn based combat after X, all FF titles have sacrificed player input to look more impressive: XII had the gambit system that let you program your teammates's AI when you're not controlling them, XIII had paradigm shifts that let you switch character's AI between six routines, and from what I've read so far, XV will just have AI-controlled teammates while you control one character.

Say what you will about turn based combat being "each side patiently waiting their turn to strike", but at least with it you have a clean and simple way to control what happens in the battle. There's no way in hell XV's combat will give me as much control as X's. Sure, it'll look really impressive, but three quarters of the fight will have been done by AI since I'm only controlling one of four characters. That's not what I'm looking for in a Final Fantasy game.

Turn-based combat is great when the combat is strategic enough to merit it. FFXII is the same combat system as FFX, you can literally play FFXII just like FFX if you want to. FFXII shows you a FF game in real-time that has all the control and strategy of previous FF games. There's no reason to use turn-based combat IF it can be done in real-time. What's the point of having control over all characters when the strategy is so simplistic that EXTREMELY basic programming can do it by itself? It's annoying to have to constantly go through menus over and over again just to do the same thing over and over again. Previous FF games are more like playing a computer program (going through menus, inputting commands) than a video game.

 

[Shadow flame master]

I don't really play Final Fantasy games for their combat systems, just for their stories or because it looks interesting.

 

[RJ 17]

There are also those who believe that it's not a Final Fantasy game without turn-based combat and to that, I ask, really? Do you really think that when the first Final Fantasy was being made they could have had full motion action based combat and just didn't because they liked the concept of turn based combat so very much? Turn based combat is something you use to disguise things like technical limitations. It's a simulation of what you wish could be happening on screen. Do we really think in a high stakes battle for the future of your species/planet/reality/whatever the fuck else would be carried out with each side patiently waiting their turn to strike?Which is why I say, and this is incredibly dependant on the game not being a giant bag of farts that was sold with a pretty, pretty new trailer, this may be the first "true" Final Fantasy.

Unfortunately, by your logic, Secret of Mana for the SNES would then be the prototype for a "true" final fantasy. Square had the capabilities of doing full live-action combat back then...why did it take them four more generations to bring it on over to the FF series? Or for that matter, what about FFXIV which has MMO/action-oriented combat? The fact of the matter is that there is no "true" final fantasy combat system, though if one would apply that term to anything it would be turn-based seeing as how the vast majority of games in the franchise use turn-based systems.

But yeah, as far as "is this what they've always wanted to do but just couldn't" is concerned, they've been able to do it since the SNES, they just didn't implement it into an FF game. Or as you pointed out: Kingdom Hearts has full live-action combat yet they didn't bring it over to the FF series, so they clearly had the ability to do it even on the PS2 but they specifically chose not to.

I'm just saying this looks like a fantastic step forward for the series

And that's really all it is: a new step for the franchise. Whether or not it's any good or bad or whether it sticks around or not is something only time will tell, but this wasn't the first time they stepped away from traditional turn-based combat as a company, as such this game's combat system can't be a product of "they just now had the capabilities to make it this way."

Just a little side-note about the turn-based combat system: it's meant to add a more strategic aspect to the battle...at least that's my opinion on it. Quite frankly when you boil down any combat system - even this new one for FFXV - all you're going to be doing is mashing the attack button or some variation there-of. The turn-based system allows you to pick the best way that you feel like beating the enemy. Most of the FF games even have an "Active" or "Wait" setting so, if you want to challenge yourself, you can make it so the monsters can attack even on your turn. THAT is effectively the "prototype" for the live-action battle system in FFXV that you could say was limited by technology because they didn't have the animation abilities to have the monsters running around doing stuff while you decided on what spell you wanted to use.

Look at Dragon Age's combat system with the radial pause menu, allowing you to take the time and strategically plan out "Alright this character is going to throw a fireball at which point my main character will charge in to start tanking the big guy while my rogue sneaks up and starts shredding the mage and my healer slaps a buff on us all then starts healing". That's essentially the same strategic value that the turn-based FF games allow you to plan for.

In other words I'd disagree with the notion that the turn-based system was purely a product of technological limitations preventing live-action combat play.