First Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Details Leaked
- Thread starter Tom Goldman
- Start date
Recommended Videos
Really? Another Hack-N'-Slash? Don't get me wrong, I liked Oblivion and I LOVED Morrowind, but the gameplay is just not fun at all.
Now I can understand why the games were originally designed as Hack-N'-Slash: in order to develop the story and world. Of course these two things are the best part of the franchise, The Elder Scrolls series is THE open world RPG.
But hasn't the technology gotten to the point where they could at least have a bit more immersive gameplay? Dual wielding is nice and all, but still... all you're doing is slashing/shooting/spellcasting something over and over again until it's health meter depletes. Your character doesn't feel dynamic or mobile and he/she looks and feels awkward. I understand that they are going for a realism feel, but I still think the combat is completely un-compelling.
The biggest problem with the Elder Scrolls series is that your power is always capped. Even a maxed out character doesn't feel that powerful (especially with the leveled enemies system). The problem is this can't be fixed because the game would become unbalanced. You can't attack multiple enemies at once in a Hack-N'-Slash (except for aoe spells of course).
The combat engine is dragged down by the fact that there is a flow chart of stat and damage calculations happening under the seams. I don't think Peter Molyneux was completely off by trying to eliminate a lot of the stat calculations; it doesn't work as well on consoles. Hack-N'-Slash stat based combat is better with a keyboard and mouse, because it becomes a game of strategy. The controller is better suited to action style gameplay. It seems Bethesda is trying to have the best of both worlds by having the same gameplay mechanics for two completely different systems. The Dragon Age fellows at least made an attempt to offer two different mechanics that are each suited the the two respective platforms.
It's killing a bunch of enemies at once and looking cool while you do it that makes the player feel powerful and like his character is the master of his world. That's the feeling you get in Fable for instance. I'm not saying TES should be completely like Fable, in fact quite the contrary; Fable can only be considered an RPG in the loosest sense. However, Fable's combat is fun, and TES would be better off if they adopted something similar, at least for mele combat.
It would be even better if the different styles felt distinct from one another. Right now I'd say TES's stealth gameplay is the most immersive, simply because slipping out of the shadows to stab someone in the back is very well suited to the first person perspective. It would be even better if their finishing moves system had a special animation for when someone sneaks up behind someone undetected for an instant kill. The higher levels of sneak would be able to kill the struggling enemy quicker with less of a chance of making noise and alerting other nearby enemies. That's something I think could be plausibly implemented given what little I can glean from their engine and combat system. More scripted grapples and fighting moves would go a long way to add more variety to the Hack-N'-Slash formula, without changing the engine too drastically.
But... I imagine the open world system takes up a lot of the engine, and the NPC and enemies are a lot more complex. The engine as a whole would probably need to be completely redone accomplish what I would want it to. All I'm saying is that Bethesda shouldn't be wedded to their gameplay mechanics for fear of upsetting fans. It's the depth of quests and the interactivity and openness of the world that set TES apart, as long as they keep those elements they'll be good. If you're still going to go with stat centered gameplay, then there should be MORE skills and spells in order to offer more depth and choice to the player. If you're going to simplify things then you shouldn't make it a Hack-N'-Slash. The more they break the mold in their combat/magic/stealth engines, the better off they'll be. Maybe on the next gen, eh?
FYI I'm still going to buy it.
Now I can understand why the games were originally designed as Hack-N'-Slash: in order to develop the story and world. Of course these two things are the best part of the franchise, The Elder Scrolls series is THE open world RPG.
But hasn't the technology gotten to the point where they could at least have a bit more immersive gameplay? Dual wielding is nice and all, but still... all you're doing is slashing/shooting/spellcasting something over and over again until it's health meter depletes. Your character doesn't feel dynamic or mobile and he/she looks and feels awkward. I understand that they are going for a realism feel, but I still think the combat is completely un-compelling.
The biggest problem with the Elder Scrolls series is that your power is always capped. Even a maxed out character doesn't feel that powerful (especially with the leveled enemies system). The problem is this can't be fixed because the game would become unbalanced. You can't attack multiple enemies at once in a Hack-N'-Slash (except for aoe spells of course).
The combat engine is dragged down by the fact that there is a flow chart of stat and damage calculations happening under the seams. I don't think Peter Molyneux was completely off by trying to eliminate a lot of the stat calculations; it doesn't work as well on consoles. Hack-N'-Slash stat based combat is better with a keyboard and mouse, because it becomes a game of strategy. The controller is better suited to action style gameplay. It seems Bethesda is trying to have the best of both worlds by having the same gameplay mechanics for two completely different systems. The Dragon Age fellows at least made an attempt to offer two different mechanics that are each suited the the two respective platforms.
It's killing a bunch of enemies at once and looking cool while you do it that makes the player feel powerful and like his character is the master of his world. That's the feeling you get in Fable for instance. I'm not saying TES should be completely like Fable, in fact quite the contrary; Fable can only be considered an RPG in the loosest sense. However, Fable's combat is fun, and TES would be better off if they adopted something similar, at least for mele combat.
It would be even better if the different styles felt distinct from one another. Right now I'd say TES's stealth gameplay is the most immersive, simply because slipping out of the shadows to stab someone in the back is very well suited to the first person perspective. It would be even better if their finishing moves system had a special animation for when someone sneaks up behind someone undetected for an instant kill. The higher levels of sneak would be able to kill the struggling enemy quicker with less of a chance of making noise and alerting other nearby enemies. That's something I think could be plausibly implemented given what little I can glean from their engine and combat system. More scripted grapples and fighting moves would go a long way to add more variety to the Hack-N'-Slash formula, without changing the engine too drastically.
But... I imagine the open world system takes up a lot of the engine, and the NPC and enemies are a lot more complex. The engine as a whole would probably need to be completely redone accomplish what I would want it to. All I'm saying is that Bethesda shouldn't be wedded to their gameplay mechanics for fear of upsetting fans. It's the depth of quests and the interactivity and openness of the world that set TES apart, as long as they keep those elements they'll be good. If you're still going to go with stat centered gameplay, then there should be MORE skills and spells in order to offer more depth and choice to the player. If you're going to simplify things then you shouldn't make it a Hack-N'-Slash. The more they break the mold in their combat/magic/stealth engines, the better off they'll be. Maybe on the next gen, eh?
FYI I'm still going to buy it.
I was scrolling through the comments, appalled at how much support this... blasphemy of a game was receiving.Xzi said:
Then I read your comment detailing my exact feelings, and a ray of hope shined through.
If I could, I'd buy you a beer and reminisce about when Elder Scrolls was still an RPG.
Oblivion's story wasn't as good because it required voice actors, which made it much harder to produce than Morrowind. Video games in general have been getting less and less content because most of production is spent on the game's engine. Let's not forget all of the powers one had in Morrowind too, Levitation being the biggest thing to be cut. Since Oblivion had a bunch of invisible walls anyway I don't see how the levitation would have messed things up. The hero was just much weaker in Oblivion, my character never felt very powerful even when maxed out. The whole point of an RPG is to build a character up until they do amazing things, the whole 'realistic' turn Bethesda took with TES' combat system kind of made that impossible.EvolutionKills said:
Will there be more than 4 voice actors this time?
Probably not, but a little variety would be nice...
Probably not, but a little variety would be nice...
Well, just because there aren't classes doesn't mean you still can't play as a full Mage or Warrior etc. The pre-planned part of character building has just been taken out. However, cutting down the number of skills again just seems strange. If they wanted to make it more like an action game, then they should change the combat system entirely. I'm disappointed too. Dual wielding is hardly an innovation. It's like they're stuck between a point-and-click Hack-N'-Slash style and action style gameplay. The result is unfortunately going to inevitably be mediocre. You're still going to be mashing the right trigger/mouse button, slashing away at enemies and depleting their health bars, but you'll just have less options in how to do so.8-Bit Grin said:
Well Elder Scrolls, for me you'd have to compete with Demon's Souls which at least knew how make something feel fantastical. I'm pretty sure medieval Europe was more exciting than the idyllic pastures of Cyrodil. Seriously Bethesda a demonic invasion on the whole land doesn't seem any more urgent than pilfering scales off a fish. You all never saw Churchill weaving baskets during the bombing of Britain, did you?
Y'know what? Boo-fucking-hoo! So some things are being changed in a game, surprise sur-fucking-prise!
There's so many people whining about all of these changes, but as far as I'm concerned I don't really give a shit! When it comes down to it, you're still going to have a fucking awesome time when you play it, so can't we all just be happy that it's not going to have a dick monster or something?
There's so many people whining about all of these changes, but as far as I'm concerned I don't really give a shit! When it comes down to it, you're still going to have a fucking awesome time when you play it, so can't we all just be happy that it's not going to have a dick monster or something?
18 skills. Oi! What's with nixing the skills you can use? Eh, Bethesda?!
...*starts calculating how much a PC upgrade would cost*
...*starts calculating how much a PC upgrade would cost*
Ooh, I'm liking what I'm seeing here, and, as I was not impressed with Oblivion, I really hope Bethesda do a good job with this. It looks promising.
[sub][sub]Although, I suppose that it was the PS3 version of the game... I really should pick up a PC copy, and give it another chance...[/sub][/sub]
[sub][sub]Although, I suppose that it was the PS3 version of the game... I really should pick up a PC copy, and give it another chance...[/sub][/sub]
Dual wield- aww sweet, dual axe wielding brute character here I come ^^
less skills- hopefully this means a shift from quantity to quality, aka fewer but deeper skills
no classes- no bother, I think the class system needs to go and die anyway
F3 like enemy scale- oh thank god, would be nice to feel the power for once
crafting system- oh sweet, now I can make the sword I enchant ^^
perks- as long as they follow new vegas way of not boosting your skills, thus risk overpowering you to fast, sure I don´t mind ^^
all in all, still sounds like I´ll play it for the same reason I love TES to begin with, to play my character, not push the buttons on some pre made doll made by a game dev.
less skills- hopefully this means a shift from quantity to quality, aka fewer but deeper skills
no classes- no bother, I think the class system needs to go and die anyway
F3 like enemy scale- oh thank god, would be nice to feel the power for once
crafting system- oh sweet, now I can make the sword I enchant ^^
perks- as long as they follow new vegas way of not boosting your skills, thus risk overpowering you to fast, sure I don´t mind ^^
all in all, still sounds like I´ll play it for the same reason I love TES to begin with, to play my character, not push the buttons on some pre made doll made by a game dev.
But the most important question remains unanswered!
Will all the characters look like potatoes in wigs? Or have Bethesda finally evolved here?
OT: Sounds interesting - I might give it a go - *if* the characters aren't all in the little known 'creepy potato' area of the uncanny valley.
Will all the characters look like potatoes in wigs? Or have Bethesda finally evolved here?
OT: Sounds interesting - I might give it a go - *if* the characters aren't all in the little known 'creepy potato' area of the uncanny valley.
ReiverCorrupter said:
To be fair, there are a number of things that they did right with Oblivion. Attempting to voice act everything was ambitious, and given the standards of the time, they did very well. Post Mass Effect and Dragon Age however, it's not as easy to forgive the fact that every person of a particular race/gender uses the same voice actors. But, if I remember correctly, something like 80% of the space on the game's disk was dedicated to audio files, so they still recorded a TON of dialogue.
I also approve of the cut down Skill list. It was nice and clean, with 3 skills assigned to each attribute, and 7 skills each falling under Combat/Stealth/Magic. Although now I'm curious as to which ones they cut, or have added back in and condensed into others. Yeah, we lost throwing weapons and spears, not a huge loss. The same thing happened between Fallout 2 and 3. Do we need both Doctor and First Aid skills? Nope, roll them both into Medicine and call it a day. Do we need Short Blades and Long Blades separate? Nope, roll them into Blades, and put Clubs and Axes together into Blunt Weapons and call it a day. The less redundant skills we have to manage, the better.
I believe that they where also right in trying to steam-line combat, and even the addition of the Power Attacks and the other abilities that you earned from raising your skills was a step in the right direction. Remember that in Morrowind, you didn't always hit what you attacked. The fact that they took Hit% out of the game, and made it based purely on weather or not you could actually physically connect, was also a step in the right direction. You did feel more powerful in end-game Morrowind, but part of that was because you where so frail in the beginning. Just running around, as slow as it was, would drain your stamina. So right off the bat in Oblivion, your character felt more capable in combat and mobility. You could actually move at a decent speed, and fast travel and way-points helped too. You couldn't reach the same heights of power, but you didn't start off nearly as weak either.
Those where two more steps in the right direction to make the game more accessible. Being a Morrowind veteran myself, I'd have preferred an option right of the box to disable one of both of those options, but it is what it is. Maybe they'll take another note from Fallout: New Vegas and have a 'Hardcore' mode that disables a lot of those helpers (fast travel and the way points), forcing you to find out where to go, and the means to get there. Actually forcing you to explore, instead of leading you by the nose.
That being said, enemies that level up with you where a terrible idea. Taking the Fallout 3 approach makes a lot more sense. I also hope they manage to work out some more of the kinks and loopholes in the character system. Just about everybody could (eventually) be masters of Combat and Stealth, but unless you built your character from the ground up with Magic in mind, you could never excel at it. The Magika pool was always the biggest factor, and depending on Race and Birth Sign, you could literally start out with a Magika pool at Lv1 that was greater than you could hope to achieve with a Lv40 Warrior. Part of this is the simple fact that you never gained Magika points when you leveled up, unlike health. If you actually did, and they where based off Intelligence or something, then arcane warriors would have to choose between boosting Endurance for HP gain or Intelligence. But that wasn't the case, you could be a Brenton with the Mage Birth Sign and have a huge Magika pool, then dump everything into Endurance at every level, and have only slightly less HP at Lv40 than a Nordic Warrior. But you'd still have a Magicka pool 3 or more times larger than the Nord, and there was NO WAY the Nord can make up the difference. Even if both had maxed out Intelligence/Wisdom scores and Magic skills. Morrowind had this problem as well, but I digress.
EDIT: They dropped the total skills from 21 to 18. Now I haven't seen what the final ones are, but if I was to take a guess at what they did. They probably removed 1 skill each from Combat, Stealth, and Magic. These abilities either got rolled into other skills, rolled into Perks, or are mechanics dropped from the game entirely. At the very least, I'm sure Security got axed, it's only purpose was to pick locks. It was useless because the lock-picking mini-game was really easy, could by by-passed with a spell, or made pointless by the unbreakable Skeleton Key. Maybe Speechcraft and Mercantile rolled into one? I don't think they'd cut a school of Magic out, they're pretty lean as is. Acrobatics and Athletics kind of overlapped thematically, does it really make sense to be either a good runner or jumper, but not both? They always felt a little redundant. We no longer have Levitation, so do I really need to dedicate 2 out of 7 of my character's Primary Skills so that he can be competent at traversing the physical world? Whatever, I'd just like to see the final skill list, and some of the proposed new Perks...
Okay so my thought process here goes... Dragonborn= 1/2 dragon, 1/2 Nord. The Nord part sucks because they were generally hideous in Oblivion, but if you're half dragon, ZOMG!!! If you're part dragon, you can take on dragon form (ideally). If you can take on dragon form, you can fly+breathe fire... If you can fly, AERIAL COMBAT!!!!! It'd be like Divinity II, except because this is TES the quality would be amazing and Bethesda would yet again be releasing a groundbreaking RPG. Although I'm going to mourn the loss of the race option, and designing your own class...