Flash Game Makes Players Beat Up "Tropes vs. Women" Creator

[rbstewart7263]

How is that a bad thing?

Because she does it in the wrong way.
She often uses very shallow and faulty logic, sometimes even finding/making up issues where there are none.
A good example would be in the case of Zia, where Sarkeesian says she's only referred to as 'the female' and that she's only there to be a lady in distress. Never mind that she has a name where the 'the Kid', the protagonist, doesn't even get one. Further, she was never in distress, like the Kid thought. She had wandered off on her own to find out the truth.
She is right in many cases, that's true, but the way she paints even positive female characters as sexist can't and shouldn't be glossed over.

I don't always agree with Sarkeesian but I think what she is doing is something that needs to be done.

I think we all recognise there is a problem and while we can't expect someone to get it 100% right we should at least show support for someone who is trying to change things for the better. If anything with the funding she has gotten she can at least do thorough research and perhaps interview some devs

As for the train thing I agree with her there. The problem with groping is of epidemic proportions and as a woman I would rather been in a relatively safer environment than just trust that these twisted guys are going to behave themselves.

By better feminists which can be found on youtube talking about games.

Theres a cultural pattern following a feminist of anitas camp called media burnout. Basically they yell there cause so loud and proud and full of piss and vinigar and overreaching that the media tunes them out the same way you tune out loud music in a restaurant to hear someeone talking.

This will likely happen here as well as it has happened in hollywood due to the patterns always be similar. So legitimate complaints will go unheard because anita crys wolf at every opportunity and sees misogynys ghosts where they dont exist.

So yeah but there are much better feminists bringing a more positive message check out kite tales or sickmouth they are much more versed in anitaism long before she tred into gaming territory.


Long Response To Jay Smooth: Feminists Who Disagree With Anita Sarkeesian Sick mouth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDtyrK1butI&feature=g-hist

this one I like I love her more positive ideas here.


Sexism and Stereotypes in Video Games? Kitetales
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZueOCLGt1tw&feature=related


So to summarise. Needs to be talked about? yes. By someone who falls into basic slander and doesnt do her research? NOPE!


Superior feminists are talking about this with a much lower pay grade. lol

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

That Kite Tales has no idea what she is talking about all of her point are completely bogus. I have seen her video before and completely taken apart her empty arguments in a couple of threads on here.

If that's the sort of person you think is going to improve video games for women then I don't know what to say to you.

We aren't going to get anything done by denying a real problem exists.

 

[rbstewart7263]

and the other video?

 

[Kahunaburger]

I think the relevant Japanese authorities are capitulating to a poorly thought out idea. If they have not considered Samaritan Laws, that might be the problem. You know, laws mandating that if you see a crime you MUST report it ASAP and if CCTV or the victim later proves you saw the crime but did not report it in a timely manner then you will be prosecuted. I am certainly not going to this measure in Japan just because it's a different culture. I won't support Iran's persecution of homosexuals just because Iran is a different country from Britain with "oh, I'm sure they have good reasons". Wrong is wrong.

If you have some relevant information about Japan and law enforcement against sexual abusers, then cough it up. Don't just assume there is evidence out there to support your that I have to find. I am not aware on any inability of Japanese authorities to detect, arrest, charge and prosecute sexual abusers on public transport, or why such penalties would be ineffective deterrent.

People in this thread have already explained this to you multiple times. If you choose to remain poorly informed after a page or two of people explaining exactly why you're missing the point about this policy, there's nothing I can do to help you.

I'm quite sure when the US Military rounded up every single person of Japanese descent, even Third generation American Citizens, and herded them into concentration camps (even US govt described them as such) that was done for safety reasons so they "don't need to worry"

Well, I guess if you're dead set on appropriating you might as well keep going.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I don't find any of those male characters you listed attractive. Solid Snake is actually kind of creepy and Tidus is annoying as all hell for example.

Saying that male characters are objectified as much as women is simply untrue. I mean just look at the poses they are put into. Their clothes don't even come into it most of the time although no one in their right minds would wear that stuff to fight in.

Moviebob talks about how you can tell a what a male character is like just from looking at him whereas all you can tell from say Mai Shiranui is that she likes to check herself out in an unseen mirror.

This image shows that he is really determined and 'badass'

This image tells us nothing about the character except maybe that she will have a bad back when she straightens up...

You can convince yourself all you like that men are sexualised but they just aren't.

and the other video?

I didn't even bother to watch the other one if it's as bad as that womans. All she does is make excuses for blatant sexism.

 

[Treblaine]

I think the relevant Japanese authorities are capitulating to a poorly thought out idea. If they have not considered Samaritan Laws, that might be the problem. You know, laws mandating that if you see a crime you MUST report it ASAP and if CCTV or the victim later proves you saw the crime but did not report it in a timely manner then you will be prosecuted. I am certainly not going to this measure in Japan just because it's a different culture. I won't support Iran's persecution of homosexuals just because Iran is a different country from Britain with "oh, I'm sure they have good reasons". Wrong is wrong.

If you have some relevant information about Japan and law enforcement against sexual abusers, then cough it up. Don't just assume there is evidence out there to support your that I have to find. I am not aware on any inability of Japanese authorities to detect, arrest, charge and prosecute sexual abusers on public transport, or why such penalties would be ineffective deterrent.

People in this thread have already explained this to you multiple times. If you choose to remain poorly informed after a page or two of people explaining exactly why you're missing the point about this policy, there's nothing I can do to help you.

I'm quite sure when the US Military rounded up every single person of Japanese descent, even Third generation American Citizens, and herded them into concentration camps (even US govt described them as such) that was done for safety reasons so they "don't need to worry"

Well, I guess if you're dead set on appropriating you might as well keep going.

What information? Name a specific piece of information directed at me for why law enforcement can't work for combating perverts on trains?

You are being disingenuous, acting like I have been proven wrong, It's like claiming you've won a game of chess when you have no peieces left on the board. People have made many bad arguments that I have swiftly and concisely shown to be without substance.

-I am not choosing to remain poorly informed, you have refused my challenge to provide the information you claim you have.
-I have not been given any adequate explanation for why this segregation is necessary

If you are dead set on refusing to see why segregation is wrong you can see why I use examples of where it is unambiguously bad. That is not "appropriation" it is ENTIRELY RELEVANT. Your arguments have become desperately disingenuous.

 

[rbstewart7263]

This argument about the subways is very fundamentalist. For example we know nothing of the effectivness of such a thing we only have the idealistic faith that either:

A:It would be ideal if the men and women in japan could not separate and still not get all gropey and rapey.

B:It would be fair and wise to separate them to fix the problem.


In either case one does not know but can only summarize whether one or the other could be effective.

For example: We dont know how many of these ladies can fit into the ladies only car. which means that if they could not than the stragglers would run a higher risk of gang rape due to there being no other female support structure.

Or the assumption that better enforcment would work. Could be true but that takes time. installment of cameras passing of laws. I imagine the samaritan law would find opposition and might take time to pass. In either case the separation is new so the effectivness of both cant be fully compared yet.

I believe a more scientific view of this would be more productive.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

This argument about the subways is very fundamentalist. For example we know nothing of the effectivness of such a thing we only have the idealistic faith that either:

A:It would be ideal if the men and women in japan could not separate and still not get all gropey and rapey.

B:It would be fair and wise to separate them to fix the problem.


In either case one does not know but can only summarize whether one or the other could be effective.

For example: We dont know how many of these ladies can fit into the ladies only car. which means that if they could not than the stragglers would run a higher risk of gang rape due to there being no other female support structure.

Or the assumption that better enforcment would work. Could be true but that takes time. installment of cameras passing of laws. I imagine the samaritan law would find opposition and might take time to pass. In either case the separation is new so the effectivness of both cant be fully compared yet.

I believe a more scientific view of this would be more productive.

Perhaps the very fact that they over sexualise and objectify females in most of their media including video games just adds to the problem of men seeing women as something that is there to be grabbed as they feel like it.

 

[cobra_ky]

OK, that is a plausible explanation... but so it is also plausible that she approves of segregation IN GENERAL as a solution of a minority of criminal assault. Never the less, she still supported this as a solution. It is very hard to excuse.

Japan actually has one of the lowest rape per capita in the world, lower than Canada:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

Lower than strictly conservative countries like Morocco that ban all pornography and forbid women showing their body.

Those statistics measure the number of sexual assaults recorded by police. Don't confuse those for the actual incidence of rape, which is drastically underreported to varying degrees in most countries.

Note how Egypt is on the very bottom of that list, even though it's been well-documented how serious the issue of sexual violence still is in that country.

Yes, they are reported rates FOR EACH COUNTRY! They work for purpose of comparison.

The United States would need to have over 2500% higher reporting incidence relative to Japan to have the same incidence. That is an outlandish claim that you need evidence to back up. Why would Japan have such a higher incidence of rapes going unreported?

What you are basically saying is because every rape cannot be detected, then no comparisons can be made. No. Comparisons can be made.

Also, proof that Egypt must have a higher incidence of rape that is relevant to Japan. Are you just making assumptions about Egypt?

It is very, very difficult to make comparisons because different countries have different definitions of rape, and enforcement also depends on cultural attitudes towards sexual assault and how seriously the authorities take it. If the victims don't think the police are going to do anything about it anyway, then they aren't going to bother reporting it, especially when doing so can open them up to shaming and more harassment.

<a href=http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20101015a2.html#.T_n6t_UZ-nA>Train groping is drastically underreported in Japan.

And I'm not just making assumptions about Egypt, either. It's only relevant insofar as it's an example of how unreliable reported rape statistics are.

 

[Kahunaburger]

snip

I bet people in Japan are so happy they have all these oh-so enlightened Westerners to tell them how best to run their own country because a video about advertising (made by *gasp* a woman!) rustled their jimmies.

snip

People in this thread have already explained this to you multiple times. If you choose to remain poorly informed after a page or two of people explaining exactly why you're missing the point about this policy, there's nothing I can do to help you. If you skimmed the last few pages of the thread, read them again and actually learn from the people trying to teach you why Japan chose these policies.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I bet people in Japan are so happy they have all these oh-so enlightened Westerners to tell them how best to run their own country because a video about advertising (made by *gasp* a woman!) rustled their jimmies.

snip

People in this thread have already explained this to you multiple times. If you choose to remain poorly informed after a page or two of people explaining exactly why you're missing the point about this policy, there's nothing I can do to help you. If you skimmed the last few pages of the thread, read them again and actually learn from the people trying to teach you why Japan chose these policies.

I get the idea that they've decided to just ignore anything that doesn't agree with their world view.

They have already said that they don't think Soul Calibur characters are hyper-sexualised...I don't even.

 

[Grunt_Man11]

snip

That Kite Tales has no idea what she is talking about all of her point are completely bogus. I have seen her video before and completely taken apart her empty arguments in a couple of threads on here.

If that's the sort of person you think is going to improve video games for women then I don't know what to say to you.

We aren't going to get anything done by denying a real problem exists.

No, sorry but Kite Tales does know what she's talking about.

She understands one simple, but major, fact. That not everyone is the same.

See that's what Anita Sarkeesian is doing wrong. It's a common mistake a number of feminist, and activists in general, make.

They see these characters as "sexist" because they are not like them.

Princess Peach doesn't talk, dress, think, and behave like Anita does, thus she's a sexist character.
Zelda doesn't talk, dress, think, and behave like Anita does, thus she's a sexist character.
Samus doesn't talk, dress, think, and behave like Anita does, thus she's a sexist character.
Bayonetta doesn't talk, dress, think, and behave like Anita does, thus she's a sexist character.

See the pattern here?

Does this make Anita Sarkeesian a bad person? No.
Does this make her a "feminazi"? NO! (And that is a stupid term!)

This just makes her ignorant and narrow-minded. Being ignorant and narrow-minded is not evil, and it definitely doesn't warrant horrible responses and treatment like that idiotic flash game, or those "get back to the kitchen durr hurr" youtube comments.

If you want to see Anita's argument deconstructed in an intelligent and informed manner then check out the Destructoid response article.

http://www.destructoid.com/a-response-to-some-arguments-in-anita-sarkeesian-s-interview-230570.phtml

 

[Kahunaburger]

I get the idea that they've decided to just ignore anything that doesn't agree with their world view.

They have already said that they don't think Soul Calibur characters are hyper-sexualised...I don't even.

Haha wow. Soul Calibur, of all games to claim to not feature hyper-sexualized characters? I don't even, indeed.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

The problem is that the characters aren't people. They are specifically made that way by male devs.

So that point she made is completely null. She hasn't got a clue.

And Samus? In Other M are you freaking serious. That is the most sexist thing I have seen in years. 'I need a man to tell me what to do and validate my existence HURRR DURRR.'

 

[rbstewart7263]

In regards to soul caliber characters its only ivy that is that way. look at hildegarde and the other ladies. Id argue that theres a character there for everyone. For the extreme feminist to the sex positive feminist or leather fetishist everyone can play.

www.videogamesblogger.com/2011/07/27/soul-calibur-5-characters-list-ps3-xbox-360.htm/soul-calibur-5-hilde-artwork

edit: also look at zwei or mitsurugis chiseled abs and id argue that the game is alot more fair than most would give credit.

Ivy is a an easy whipping girl sure but when you look at the whole roster the game as a whole is surprisingly all inclusive.

Also I know its not listed maybe shes not in this one but the umbrella sword chick from 4 she was bad ass and fully covered.(clothing being the standard we use nowadays it seems)

http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2011/07/27/soul-calibur-5-characters-list-ps3-xbox-360.htm

 

[Treblaine]

snip

I don't find any of those male characters you listed attractive. Solid Snake is actually kind of creepy and Tidus is annoying as all hell for example.

Saying that male characters are objectified as much as women is simply untrue. I mean just look at the poses they are put into. Their clothes don't even come into it most of the time although no one in their right minds would wear that stuff to fight in.

Moviebob talks about how you can tell a what a male character is like just from looking at him whereas all you can tell from say Mai Shiranui is that she likes to check herself out in an unseen mirror.

This image shows that he is really determined and 'badass'

This image tells us nothing about the character except maybe that she will have a bad back when she straightens up...

You can convince yourself all you like that men are sexualised but they just aren't.

You don't like those ripped masculine bodies? What more can you want - physically - from a man? And Tidus... can you get a man who is more physically perfect?

This image shows that she is really determined and 'badass'

This image tells us nothing about the character except maybe that he will have a bad back when he straightens up...

Who the hell is Mai Shiranui? Is that her? Are you objecting to fighting games, those insane deliberately over the top fighting games?

You don't get it, both males and female characters are "shown off" and in that sense objectified. It doesn't matter what stance they take, they are still paraded. Marcus Fenix has shoulder pads like an American Football player and ascribes to classic gruff cowboy archetypes.

Let's not cherry pick from google images, lets look at how female protagonists are depicted on their box art

http://www.gamershell.com/static/boxart/large/uk/586.jpg

Determined, mysterious, threatening, armed emerging metaphorically from a tempest of the past.

http://images.wikia.com/metroid/images/5/54/Metroid_Fusion_box_art.jpg

Sense of serenity with a symbolised duality

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/bigboxshots/6/561646_front.jpg

Resolute, determined, clandestine, concerned, armed with a camera her weapon is exposing the truth to justice

http://defaultprime.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Dinocrisis-box-art.jpg

Determined, cautious, brooding and on the back cover, armed and running, active in and fighting to survive in a survival horror

See it's just bollocks the claim - whoever makes it - that women are only shown as pinups in games, when female protagonists on the COVERS of their games, their single most visible representation is most definitely not a pin up but says something about their state in the game.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

The problem is that the characters aren't people. They are specifically made that way by male devs.

So that point she made is completely null. She hasn't got a clue.

And Samus? In Other M are you freaking serious. That is the most sexist thing I have seen in years. 'I need a man to tell me what to do and validate my existence HURRR DURRR.'

But judging a character first by her apparel is a damn good argument? So many have cited Movie Bob yet no one seems to remember his primary pick was that the characters presented themselves as sex objects. Apparel was secondary to behavior. But that's not Sarkeesians view. With her, apparel is top billing, then nit picking every feature & trait, and if there is time for it, complaining about how the character presents themselves. So i would say shes got more of a clue than anita does, simply because she realizes that a character is more than the sum of its naughty bits.

And samus? Far as i know if you ever mentioned other M as cannon, the fans would kill you on the spot. Unless specifically mentioned, most people ignore other M.

I suggest you read the link he posted, it gives you a written view of sarkeesians half-baked positions. Its not that hard to take 5 minutes to do it, also the 2nd video Treb posted. Unless you think you cant formulate an argument against it...

Maybe I will tommozz but I have to go sleep now

Like I have said I don't agree with everything Sarkeesian says but at least she doesn't straight up deny there is a problem when there is clearly a problem.

 

[rbstewart7263]

heres some characters from the latest king of fighters that are not so easy to nit pick about. you know the fully clothed serious sort.lol

Elisabeth.
http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2011/07/31/the-king-of-fighters-xiii-characters-list.htm/king-of-fighters-xiii-elisabeth-blanc-character-artwork

Leona
http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2011/07/31/the-king-of-fighters-xiii-characters-list.htm/king-of-fighters-xiii-leona-character-artwork

mature
http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2011/07/31/the-king-of-fighters-xiii-characters-list.htm/king-of-fighters-xiii-mature-character-artwork

yuri.
http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2011/07/31/the-king-of-fighters-xiii-characters-list.htm/king-of-fighters-xiii-yuri-sakazaki-character-artwork

So in this comparison the number of not so scantily clads far outnumber the scantily clads.

Also some of those poses indeed tell me about character and are not them looking in a mirror.

indeed indeed.lol

 

[Kahunaburger]

Also I know its not listed maybe shes not in this one but the umbrella sword chick from 4 she was bad ass and fully covered.(clothing being the standard we use nowadays it seems)

What, Setsuka?


Well, [faint praise]certainly better than Ivy.[/faint praise] But not, you know, reasonable.