Flash Game Makes Players Beat Up "Tropes vs. Women" Creator

[xorinite]

Prove that she is directly or indirectly responsible, and you may have a point. But until there is such proof, you don't.

Why would I have to prove that, when I haven't claimed that?

Please don't construct straw men, try to address what I actually said. You can even say I didn't make that claim in your own post which quotes mine.

I claimed that certain well known forums were spammed relentlessly about this video, and this resulted in them trolling her videos, which was then attributed unfairly by her, and you to being a problem with the gaming community.

Well actually I asked you to engage in a thought exercise and then asked you what the conclusions of that thought exercise would be. However for some reason you ignored all that and went to some talking point that didn't address anything I said.

Can you please treat me more like a human being?

And even if it was true, that doesn't make their behavior any less vile, nor any more justifiable. They are wrong to act that way and it is wrong of you or anyone else to defend them.

Irrelevant. How is one group responsible for the actions of a completely different group?

Oh your implication of behaviour I didn't do by euphemism isn't particularly honest and I don't think anyone should have to put up with that.

How would you feel if I ended my post with the following?

"It is wrong of you to and anyone else to defend racism and violence against children."

that statement is perfectly true no? Yet its dishonest since it euphemistically implies you did that. It is immoral, please don't do that to me.

 

[xorinite]

Bickering for the sake of bickering is not helpful.

Then why don't you actually try to engage with what I have said so we can have a constructive conversation rather than jumping to talking points which don't take anything I have said into account?

And it doesn't change the fact that there is a very vocal part of the gaming community that is misogynistic, and that they are trying to prevent someone from having an opinion because it conflicts with their privileged view of the world.

Too many normative unquantifiable statements to really be of any use. I could say the same thing about any community and any topic if the community is large enough. All you have stated is that there is a non-zero amount of misogyny.

The question is how much of a problem is this, and how representative is the selection of trolls on her videos of the gaming community?

Is it wrong of me to feel that I have been unfairly lumped together with these trolls just because I enjoy playing dwarf fortress?

Denying that isn't honest behavior either.

Who has done that?
Was that supposed to be an implication about me?
Why not ask me what I think?

 

[xorinite]

Also:

[small](bold and color added for emphasis)[/small]

But the way these 'members' of that community are acting is worthy of nothing but our collective disgust, and attacking her like it somehow retroactively justifies their horrible behavior is just as revolting.

Which is because of the gaming community, not due to say spamming of certain forums rich in trollite for viral marketing purposes?

Where have I stated as you claim dishonestly that I did, that this was the tropes video creator?

Tell me, what do you think would happen if I made a tropes vs black/white/latino people video series, and spammed that same forum, then left the comments open to demonstrate that you and the rest of gamers are essentially racist.

Indeed that was the thought exercise you ignored.

Speaking of intellectual dishonesty - if it is intellectually dishonest to imply a that someone did something they didn't do in order to make a point, it is doubly dishonest to do that, then accuse the person you are arguing with of doing that when he didn't as a way to avoid his argument.

Indeed, please stop implying I have done things which I haven't done. Also I thought you were against pointless bickering. I was hoping for an intelligent discussion, but as you yourself just stated you are looking for an argument.

Again, you haven't addressed a single point I made. Instead you appear to be just looking for something to argue about.

So please tell me what do you think or my original points?

 

[xorinite]

Because, to borrow your own terminology, all you seem to be saying is that there is a non-zero portion of gamers who aren't misogynists.

I thank you for suggesting its my terminology, its a very kind compliment. However my point was to try and get you to consider how representative this is of the gaming community and if using this selection as your main sample is not an unfair stereotyping.

Which is a known fact. In fact, it's widely accepted that the majority of gamers are not misogynists.

What is or is not accepted widely is not relevant. what is relevant is what can be demonstrated. It still doesn't address my point which was to discuss how representative these people are of gamers in general or if they are a completely different select group. In fact I would even suggest that it is not outside the bounds of reason to suggest that stirring up trolls in this manner serves very effectively as viral marketing.

Which just makes me believe you are bickering without any real point. Which makes me wonder why, then, you are bickering.

I have made pains not to bicker. I provided what I hoped would be an interesting thought exercise to people, you chose to ignore that and instead make a series of implications about me.

You can at any point choose to engage in a discussion about my thought exercise and the points I made therein.

Which makes me conclude that you are bickering purely because you object to what I'm saying. And seeing that what I'm saying is that there is no defending this sort of misogyny, I begin to wonder why you object. Which makes me conclude that you are trying to defend this sort of misogyny.

Of course I object to what you are saying, you are unfairly misrepresenting what I have said and ignored all my points not addressing a single one. Now this could be for a manner of reasons however I always choose to believe it is down to a miscommunication. However we have spoken to each other in several posts thus far, so I believe you have enough to understand the points I was conveying.

So what do you think of them?

Where have I stated as you claim dishonestly that I did, that this was the tropes video creator?

Tell me, what do you think would happen if I made a tropes vs black/white/latino people video series, and spammed that same forum, then left the comments open to demonstrate that you and the rest of gamers are essentially racist.

Asked and answered. The implication is clear.

No it isn't I suggested if I did that, I did not state that the videos original creator did this. I don't mind implying it, I intended to imply it as a possibility. You made out that I stated it as a verifiable fact. That is not true.

Edit: I should add that in case you feel, like I do a little, that we might be selfishly taking up a lot of space in this forum we could discuss this in a private message. I don't mind either forums are meant for discussion after all, but I never quite know the rules of a back and forth like this.

 

[runic knight]

for the love of... people are STILL not getting this point? How many times has it been beaten over.
The response in her videos was not indicative of gamers in general. It was a perfect storm of assholery, fueled by spam postings in the asshole of the internet. The comments on her video have not been supported in any way shape or form by any poster I have seen discussing this topic among the 4 different threads here I have seen talking about it directly or by proxie.

Now, claiming the comments she got represents gamers as a community is dishonest. It ignores the self-feeding nature of trolls, it ignores the 4chan crowd, and it ignores that her videos have no way to separate people who actually play games compared to those who don't, meaning those who trolled away may well have been doing so for a variety of reasons beyond the one attributed as a knee-jerk reaction. That is bullshit logic there and continuing to make the claim is showing not only a willingness to be dishonest, but a contempt to the discussion itself.

Also, there are over 120 million male gamers in america alone. Any response on her video (that had only a couple hundred comments by people not defined as male/female/gamer/troll/whatever is a farce of a measure stick of gamers. If you are going to test for this sort of thing, use unbiased sample sizes from the actual demographic. Using a sample size of trolls from the asshole of the net and saying it is indicative of gamers at large is dishonest. It was dishonest when she used it as claims about how it validated her need for the videos and it is dishonest to claim it represents the gamer's maturity of the discussion at all.

Honestly, look no further then the response she got in donations. Unlike trolling, that actually cost people something in order to give, and give they did. Though I think he project not deserving of money because of the pointlessness of it and her own bias removing nay integrity to the project, others did give money. Others, including gamers, not only said no to the trolls with their wallets, they did it en masse.

No one is denying that gaming isn't perfect. No one is supporting the trolls or the asshat that made the punch-them game. But calling someone out for trying to make bullshit claims is not "bickering for the sake of bickering" it is upholding a fucking intellectual integrity, regardless the claims made. Not dealing with reality the way it actually is is "not helpful". Not forcing the discussion on the topic, on any topic to uphold integrity and honest of statements is "not helpful". Fuck, how the hell can anyone actually address the damn issue when we got jackasses like Anita stirring up bullshit* and dragging the debate back a decade and a half to the age of the social pariah antagonist gamer dude v. women. Damn man, the hell?!

*this refers to he video series in general, as well as the kickstartered one. It honestly seems she is looking for anything to rail against with the term feminism, be it legitimate or not, an this can have a lot of problems when trying to address actual concerns. This is not related to claims she spammed the video across 4chan herself, though I have seen a fair case made that it was indeed done by someone in her circle.

 

[xorinite]

I never said you stated anything. I said you don't have a point unless you can prove that she is responsible for spamming 4chan.

That is a statement. Corollary to it is that I had made a claim of verifiable fact, in other words one which would require evidential support, as opposed to your later more accurate assessment that there was an implication of possibility. Which I stick to.

irrelevant, because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

If you fail to see how a discussion about the representation of the people in the comments of the video in question is related to the topic at hand then you fail to see it.

snip

Thank you, I enjoyed reading what you posted and it at least lets me know someone understands my perspective.

 

[runic knight]

Thank you, I enjoyed reading what you posted and it at least lets me know someone understands my perspective.

I swear, I have been arguing the same points for the last couple weeks. Her vids are biased to the point of being crap, her claims are dishonest, the trolls aren't indicative of anything but 4chan being a cesspool. Gets a little tiring beating the same points into the ground ad naseum. Even more so when I would love to have an actual discussion on the topic of sexist in games, since I am more in the idea that most of the issues are underlying story problems tied into media culture apparent in all mediums to date (from books to tv to movies to comics to games). The medium of games is no more inherently sexist then others, just shows it more because of simper stories and a more concentrated examination of it because of the acceptance of it in other mediums. Movies always having beautiful people, "love interest" trope in many, many movies, advertisement of "ideals" to see product, and so on. Instead it is being told gamers aren't mature enough to have a discussion or gamers are misogynist jackasses because people think the loudest voice represents the whole. Westburo Baptist church is pretty damn loud and they sure as hell don't represent most Christians...

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edit. No one said 4chan didn't. Merely that it can't be claimed they all do. Nor can it be claimed a community who are trolls first can be fairly used as a sample size of gamers to get a feel of the population's footing on any given subject. To do so is intellectually dishonest. The problem here, to put it simple, is not really even the claim about gamers so much as the set up. We can't even get to the claim of gamers being sexist in any degree because we are bogged down explaining why this is not an argument but instead a fallacy.

 

[xorinite]

snip

Since you have already stated you cannot see any benefit in discussing my original points and our ability to communicate accurately between each other seems almost non-existent;
What then would be the point in further discussion?

I will bet any amount of money you like that the majority - if not the entirety - of 4chan users are gamers.

Which is still not relevant to my point.
Again since either I cannot communicate what I am saying to you effectively, or you cannot understand my communications (same thing from different perspectives) what would be gained from further discussion?

I swear, I have been arguing the same points for the last couple weeks. Her vids are biased to the point of being crap, her claims are dishonest, the trolls aren't indicative of anything but 4chan being a cesspool. Gets a little tiring beating the same points into the ground ad naseum.

I don't know why its so hard to communicate that perspective. I tried today but haven't succeeded. I'll think about it some more perhaps I will come up with a better way to get someone to see things from my position. I could speculate but that wouldn't serve much purpose, better to experiment.

Even more so when I would love to have an actual discussion on the topic of sexist in games, since I am more in the idea that most of the issues are underlying story problems tied into media culture apparent in all mediums to date (from books to tv to movies to comics to games). The medium of games is no more inherently sexist then others, just shows it more because of simper stories and a more concentrated examination of it because of the acceptance of it in other mediums. Movies always having beautiful people, "love interest" trope in many, many movies, advertisement of "ideals" to see product, and so on. Instead it is being told gamers aren't mature enough to have a discussion or gamers are misogynist jackasses because people think the loudest voice represents the whole. Westburo Baptist church is pretty damn loud and they sure as hell don't represent most Christians...

Hmm, that is an interesting idea. I had thought it was largely due to marketing games at male teenage consumers, of course these days the market is different but I figured perhaps a time lag in adjustment to the new market was being experienced.

Your suggestion is that it is a much broader social effect. Now I wonder is this due to a historical president that pretty much men were dominant in society and most written works come from them, or similarly that the majority of such writings are reflections of those societies which has resulted in our current range of generally accepted story concepts.

Or maybe, just thinking out loud here, some kind of natural polarisation based upon male and female perspectives. I mean think of twilight, very appealing to girls, much less so to boys.

 

[runic knight]

I would love to have an actual discussion on the topic of sexist in games

Would it not be more conducive to the discussion of sexism in games to:

A) Not dismiss everything a potential opponent might say before she even had a chance to say it or

B) Conduct research and present a series of counter-points that discuss the aspects of this topic that show your side?

Honestly at this point if you - or anyone else - started a kickstarter trying to present the opposing case I'm sure you'll get just as much funding, if not more.

A) I have given her a chance. Couple weeks back when I ran across her vids on gaming in general (way before this mess or her kickstarter), when I read her post misrepresenting gamers as the troll in her vids and again when I tried to give her vids another chance recently. Also I have left a few comments trying to open a dialog pertaining to tropes and story elements in gaming and how they may be seen as sexist. Unlike many of the trolls, she didn't see fit to respond back and the habit of locking down her videos shows she is not interested in a discussion on the topic. So, I am not dismissing so much as responding to what she has shown thus far. If she pulls something out that is a turn around, I will be interested, but as it is, she has not.

B)It would be better to get raw unbiased data and draw conclusion first. We've not gone far enough to make sides well beyond anything but idle thoughts. I'd love to actually get a feel for where gamers really stand in a scientific manner but as it is, I hjave not the money to do so. I... kinda doubt a kickstarter for the purpose will get as much attention as a 4chan fueled hate-fest against a woman though. So for now, I will stick with my notions about story elements and the like and hope for discussion not mired in this current drama.

As for why we would not get as much funding, it is simple. First, we lack the publicity. A woman attacked because she talks about women in game got news, and with it public outcry and response. A civil rebuttal on the matter would not get that attention. It wouldn't get the attention of the trolls who don't want to contribute to the discussion anyways (they are their own side in this, more like a wildfire then a dog in this fight), it wouldn't get the gamer attention since they are already so polarized by this crap, any attempt to support opposition of her would be called misogynist right off the bat (and has been when pointing out the bullshit of her claims about gamers). All that is left are fewer and farther between, and without publicity, even if they wanted to, they wouldn't know to donate.
Without a controversy, you don't get much attention. Not very controversial to go "seeking money to fund reasoned and logical assessment of gamers stances on isms"

Is it not an indictment of Christianity that the Westburo Baptist Church can be so loud? Is it not an indictment of Christianity that the Westburo Baptist Church can even exist, having evolved from the same holy writ? Should not other forms of Christianity speak out against them and try to remove their hate from the fringes of Christian doctrine? Would it not be wrong of other Christians to smugly imply that the military was sending the Westburo Baptist Church to protest the funerals of dead soldiers in order to curry public favor?

Not that I want this to be a religious debate - I'm just extending the metaphor.

it is only as indicative as it would be to make the claim about humanity in general. When you start to make inclusions over such broad terms, you will get the nutters. You can't, in good conscious, say that because you roped some, it is indicative of the whole. Because one guy in germany did, doesn't mean all humans have cannibalistic bents to them.
Also, other forms of Christianity DO speak out against them. It is just not as well reported because they are seen as a collective of individuals because so many do protest them. Same is true here. A lot of gamers protested these assholes as well as non-gamers. But because of the topic, and Anita's own spin, it became misogynist gamers versus women. Because it is not reported does not mean it is not occurring. Christians protest westburo, muslims protest the middle east theocracies, gamers protest sexism.

 

[runic knight]

Hmm, that is an interesting idea. I had thought it was largely due to marketing games at male teenage consumers, of course these days the market is different but I figured perhaps a time lag in adjustment to the new market was being experienced.

Your suggestion is that it is a much broader social effect. Now I wonder is this due to a historical president that pretty much men were dominant in society and most written works come from them, or similarly that the majority of such writings are reflections of those societies which has resulted in our current range of generally accepted story concepts.

Or maybe, just thinking out loud here, some kind of natural polarisation based upon male and female perspectives. I mean think of twilight, very appealing to girls, much less so to boys.

The history may be a bigger part then you know. We have a long history of male-centered societies and with it a long history of stories. Games love to draw from stories and themes common within, it is little wonder you see the same things popping up. Rescue the princess anyone? Some of the simplest stories we can tell are like that, and represent the earliest stories made.
This is also still reflected in part in culture and in gender identity, which perpetuates, is rebelled against and melds into the culture. I wouldn't say there is a natural polarization, but that does seem a bit of how the culture has encouraged. Battle of the sexes and all that. It is less drastic now, but does seem to be noticeable in everything from advertisements (that damned annoyingly stupid motor mouth wife commercial) to games.

 

[xorinite]

The history may be a bigger part then you know. We have a long history of male-centered societies and with it a long history of stories. Games love to draw from stories and themes common within, it is little wonder you see the same things popping up. Rescue the princess anyone?

Yeah my mind went strait to nursery stories, like Rapunzel, sleeping beauty, Cinderella you name it. Rescue the princess is a pretty common theme, it makes sense than at a time when most games were directed at children they would include familiar themes from children stories. So we still have peach needing rescue.

Although princesses being royalty probably didn't have much time to figure out how to do things for themselves so its not entirely based upon her gender. There's also some message there about the working class Mario rescuing the princess peach thereby showing that the plucky common man is your real hero. Which seems to be the more modern twist there, its not a prince or knight rescuing her you notice.

Kind of like how Bruce Willis in die hard is just some cop, contrasted against the high and mighty types in authority who inevitably get things wrong.

This is also still reflected in part in culture and in gender identity, which perpetuates, is rebelled against and melds into the culture. I wouldn't say there is a natural polarization, but that does seem a bit of how the culture has encouraged. Battle of the sexes and all that. It is less drastic now, but does seem to be noticeable in everything from advertisements (that damned annoyingly stupid motor mouth wife commercial) to games.

The reason I think of a natural polarisation is from animal studies there does appear to be some kind of psychological dimorphism in humanity, it seems relatively small (more like gibbons than gorillas, and nothing like ants) but I wonder how hard marketers like to pull on those strings which could result in a significant reinforcement.

I find the historical idea most convincing, which would lead to the belief that it should recede as new stories are created and the concepts spread and develop naturally. Which may have already begun. Would that mean the real social change comes from stories than from movements?