Flash Game Makes Players Beat Up "Tropes vs. Women" Creator

[toobie]

snip

Okay I think there is a bit of a problem here given if this is taken as a logical stance. I know that this isn't your position but I must say that it is quite illogical to determine her success based upon financial raising and raising awareness as I'm sure we can both agree that her starting point is to hold herself the standard of being an educator to which I would argue that she has failed. If she was a business then okay she succeeds cause the goal of any business is to generate profit but she deems herself an educator so money is essentially a non-factor nor does it validate her theory or opinions.

Actually, after watching her vids I actually can't conclude that she thinks that these are works of education. To the best of my understanding - never having spoken with her personally or seen an interview wherein she provides an outline of the intent of her video series - is that she is more of a "shoutcaster." She is trying to draw attention to an issue she is passionate about by the creation of an online persona and the use of hyperbole.

She claims her videos are used for educational purposes. Therefore, I can presume she thinks of herself as an educator.

 

[clangunn]

snip

Okay I think there is a bit of a problem here given if this is taken as a logical stance. I know that this isn't your position but I must say that it is quite illogical to determine her success based upon financial raising and raising awareness as I'm sure we can both agree that her starting point is to hold herself the standard of being an educator to which I would argue that she has failed. If she was a business then okay she succeeds cause the goal of any business is to generate profit but she deems herself an educator so money is essentially a non-factor nor does it validate her theory or opinions.

Actually, after watching her vids I actually can't conclude that she thinks that these are works of education. To the best of my understanding - never having spoken with her personally or seen an interview wherein she provides an outline of the intent of her video series - is that she is more of a "shoutcaster." She is trying to draw attention to an issue she is passionate about by the creation of an online persona and the use of hyperbole.

She claims her videos are used for educational purposes. Therefore, I can presume she thinks of herself as an educator.

The same way that Glenn Beck thinks he is an educator? Glenn Beck knows he's a showman and a celebrity persona, not a scholar. The presentation of a topic in a didactic fashion =/= education. Even in the mind of the presenter.

 

[Treblaine]

When you are talking about a character in a video game being sexist or not the motivations of the designers is everything.....Motivations for characters are in the narrative. The choices that Snake makes are because he was written that way...You don't question Snake. You question the writer.

First of all, where are you getting sexist from wearing a bikini? We HAVE GONE OVER THIS.

Sexy =/= sexism. That's not feminism to object to women in Bikinis. That's Sex-Negative conservatism.

This is what you don't get, characters may literally only do things because the writer had them do that, but that doesn't mean that WITHIN THE NARRATIVE they did not that for their own volition. You DO question snake, you get inside HIS head, balance HIS (fictional) experiences, what HE knows, what HIS stated ideals are. It's not just completely arbitrary what Snake does as written by Hideo Kojima.

First look to the character motivations if they are reasonable before you go complaining to the auteur about contrivances.

Samus in Other M was a sexist depiction because her character motivations made no sense, it defies all logic of her role as an independent bounty hunter for her to do that but does fit a sexist depiction of women as totally slavish to a disinterested man to the point of needlessly jeopardising her life and unreliable due to her overpowering emotions where some random guy is needed to save her.

It is reasonable for a female character to dress either actively sexy or just refusing to cover up which some might perceive as sexy, millions if not billions of women do so without giving up their independence or agency. That's what feminism is, empowering and enabling women. Saying women or even the depiction of women have to cover up and be celibate to be respected is not achieving that.

Yes, this MUST apply to even virtual depictions of women, as this colours the wider impression of society. If we can't accept a woman being sexual and in control then that is a problem with society that needs to be remedied by demonstration that such a combination is not inconceivable.

What you don't seem to get is that you cannot remove the designer/author from the equation... It does not matter if the motivations make sense to you or not. It does not matter if the character is well written or not. What matters is how or why the character was written that way in the first place.

The question is not, Does the "character" want to wear this? or even, Is there proper motivation for the character to wear this? It is Why did the designer put a character in this outfit?

In DOA Extreme Volleyball there does exist in the narrative an explanation for why the female fighters are all in bikinis. They are on vacation on a tropical island and there even seems to be a lack of men...perhaps making even the most shy member of the group feel free enough to "dress down". Would you really call this a game that can be seen as a game empowering or enabling for women? Of course not... it is a game made for men/boys.

The designer is the one that must answer to anyone that has an issue.

Well DOA Beach Volleyball is a rare isolated example that virtually no body cares about. Right from the very beginning the developers made clear it was for titillation and will make any contrivance for that.

DOA Beach Volleyball is NOT REPRESENTATIVE of most video games! the developers said it was trash, everyone agreed it was trash. And it didn't work, people didn't want just titillation to compensate for a fundamentally crap game. 73% on metacritic. Again, with Duke Nukem Forever, filling it with random nude women begging to do it with Duke did not compensate for the crap gameplay.

There is a specific example where it is utterly transparent that the girls dress that way ONLY to look sexy.

But that is not the case EVERYWHERE that women show skin in some video games.

Any question of games that take themselves seriously and don't consider themselves exploitative trash, like "why did snake leave Foxhound" only makes sense if you consider the fictional character, not try to break immersion as if EVERYTHING that happens is completely arbitrary and pandering to the audience. Not contrivance, not exploitation.

You can't tar all games with the same Brush.

Just because Team Ninja admitted to only putting women in bikinis for DOA Beach Volleyball, that doesn't mean IN EVERY CASE where women show some skin it is ONLY for superficial titillation or wank material

 

[Treblaine]

Again, why are you even talking about the U.S.? The statistic you cited regarding police reports of rape in Japan is not an adequate measure of the prevalence of sexual assaults there. 90% of Japanese women who are groped on trains do not report it to the police. America has absolutely nothing to do with it.

America has everything to do with the idea she puts out that Japan has much worse sex crimes because of the advertising they have there and the media's tolerance in general.

This is everything Sarkeesian has to say about America in the entire video:

"Frankly I'm surprised we don't have [women's-only passenger cars] in the U.S., because of the levels of harassment that women face here as well."

It's beyond me how you possibly could have interpreted that as "Japan has worse sex crimes than the U.S. because of advertising and media."

"police reports of rape in Japan is not an adequate measure of the prevalence of sexual assaults there."

Wow, that's an amazing piece of evidence you have there *cough*sarcasm*cough*, but I have a counter-argument:

"police reports of rape in Japan IS an adequate measure of the prevalence of sexual assaults there."

See? Baseless assertions can be made by anyone.

That was in fact my conclusion, not a piece of evidence. It's based on just about everything else i've said in this thread so far. If you're not going to bother reading my posts then there's no point in trying to argue with me.

This thread's moving fast so i'll save you the trouble of backreading:

1. Sex crimes differ from country to country, both in the letter of the law and how the law is enforced.
2. Rape and train-groping are not necessarily the same thing.
3. Most train-gropings are not reported to the police.

Therefore the number of rapes reported to Japanese police tells you very little about the scope of the train-groping problem there.

If 90% of women don't report groping on trains (as you claim) then THAT is the problem. Unwanted sexual molestation is a serious crime that must be detected and stopped. If the abusers go unpunished and emboldened they are more likely to take it further, the abusers are still out there unstopped, more segregation will be needed in all aspects of life.

Then segregation can't make the problem any worse, because gropers already largely go unpunished. Segregation is a last-ditch measure to stop the abusers by taking away their opportunity to abuse.

No, the problem is and always has been men who grope. Japanese trains tend to be very crowded, which can make it very difficult for even the victim, let alone security cameras or a police officer nearby, to identify the perpetrator. That of course makes enforcing the law difficult, and if there's nothing the police can do anyway, then very few victims will bother to report. This is why your "good Samaritan" law doesn't work, by the way. You can't prove someone failed to report a crime if you can't prove there was a crime to report. (I would go so far to say that the reason America doesn't have a problem with harassment on trains is because so few Americans utilize mass transit to begin with.)

There's two long-term solutions: Redesign Japan's transportation systems to reduce the crowds (virtually impossible), and raise a generation of men who respect women's boundaries and wouldn't assault them even if they knew they could get away with it. (Part of the project of most mainstream feminisms.)

There's only one short-term solution: providing safe spaces where women can travel without fear of harassment: women's only cars. It's nowhere near a perfect solution, but it's the only immediately effective one the train companies have at their disposal.

Last ditch effort? Ridiculous. This wouldn't be applied to crimes that were along racial lines yet it is when along lines with sex.

"raise a generation of men who respect women's boundaries"

Most men are ALREADY like that. It is the extreme minority who do this over and over again without being stopped, you know, the ones who are seriously fucked up in the head, those need to be caught and stopped.

There are many reasons other than molestation to stop such extreme overcrowding on Japanese trains that CCTV cameras cannot detect anything. It is a safety disaster if there is the slightest accident can be so severe and all other sorts or crime like pickpocketing. The overcrowding problem CAN be solved without segregation. Overcrowding will only get WORSE with sexist segregation of carriages and you can't guarantee that there will always be room for female carriages, you then leave the dilemma of missing a train and rising with men with implicitly foregoing the main protection from sexual assault.

If Japanese authorities are able to deal with things like countering pickpocketing, vandalism and littering without segregation of those who might do things from those it affects, then they can deal with groping.

 

[Treblaine]

snip

I am being honest about why it bothers me. In that female characters in the majority are only there for men to ogle. They are hardly ever 'just' people.

I could easily turn around and say to you why don't you be honest you just want to keep overtly sexualised characters in video games so you can ogle them. Feels kind of insulting doesn't it?

Your description of 'sex object' was about exactly the same as how the majority women are portrayed in video games.

So good job there.

Stop having such a defensive knee jerk reaction when women want to make things better for themselves.

And if you don't believe that guys think that girls couldn't possibly love video games look at most gender related threads on this site.

I'll be honest with you as well.

I don't play AS a sexy female too oogle her. If I wanted to oogle at a woman there are FHM and Maxim Magazine photoshoots for that. Or google for oogling. NO ONE plays a game for oogling unless they are extremely sad and desperate, DOA Beach Volleyball is a one-off that did not sell well because at its core it's just a mediocre volleyball sim, completely at odds with oogling.

No, I like to play as a female because I like to role play as a powerful and distinctly female character, I like the idea of BEING Lara Croft! I like the idea of BEING a beautiful and powerful woman. Now I am not a pre-op transsexual, I do not feel I am a woman trapped in a man's body, I just REALLY admire such women and think they are awesome. I think most men like the idea - the fantasy - of being a sexy woman who is so powerful, capable and literally awesome - awe inspiring.

I don't care if she is "hatchet faced" or scarred, but that she be distinctly female, not a guy with boobs and a wig. But they must be visually female, not hiding their whole bodies under loose fabric or a bulky power suit. Sexuality is distinctly female. This is not about disenfranchising, subjugating or denigrating women. Men wanting to play as women empowers and reinforces their relevance. And sexual without compromise, sexual and in control, sexual without being submissive and just capitulating to be a man's wife to cook and clean for him.

Marcus Fenix has shoulder pads that accentuate his masculinity, Snake with a perpetual stubble, implausibly gruff voice and dat chippendale ass. All the male protagonists are hyper masculine or exaggerated sexual features.

Characters you want to play exaggerate their gender, they do not hide it or make ambiguous with androgynous looks. Raiden is androgynous but that is the style in Japan for desirable guys, that's what all the guys in pop-groups look and act like. That is pandering to THEIR tastes.

"Your description of 'sex object' was about exactly the same as how the majority women are portrayed in video games. "

Maybe some of Duke Nukem's "babes" but NONE of the female protagonists. I have made clear how "protagonist" and "object" are totally contradictory with each other, if they are the character riving the story then they are not an object. They are not passive.

I don't know who you've been talking to on this site, but anyone you heard say it's weird for a woman to enjoy video games is a loud mouthed idiot, a noisy minority who wants to give the impression their opinion is more widely held than it is. The majority don't state the obvious that of course both males and female can enjoy games. The only large groups of people who make an issue out women playing games are people who do NOT play games and just make ignorant assumptions about the pastime.

Men only play video games is an unfounded stereotype.

 

[Atmos Duality]

So in summary:
Feminism happens. Internet troll her in poor taste.
Controversy continues and absolutely nothing of value is accomplished.

What does this prove?
THAT THE INTERNET HAS ASSHOLES ON IT. WHAT A FUCKING SHOCK.

EDIT:
My opinion in this whole matter: This topic has become way overblown. Ultimately, it's a problem of demographics, so it has no real solution as long as the mainstream gaming companies continue to pander to the teen-young adult male demographic.

Given how conservative and paranoids they have become, don't expect any sweeping changes in the near future.

And furthermore, if you're another White Knight, ready to jump down my throat (as one has already done) don't fucking bother.

 

[Treblaine]

Two questions:

1) So, having a vagina is an economic benefit?

When begging for money? You better believe it.

So, again, two responses:

1) Can you somehow prove that the majority of successfully crowd-funded projects are posted by females? Where is the evidence? I am not trying to be rhetorical. I personal don't know the gender split in successfully funded crowd sourced projects.

2) If your right, and having a vagina increases the probability of success in "begging for money" why is it that most panhandlers I have encountered in metropolitan markets across the world are primarily males?

This line of comments has gone completely off topic.

Why are you speaking so generally of women when the SPECIFICS of Sarkeesian's Kickstarter Project are the problem, not broadly on women and money.

It could very easilly be an "Andy Sarkeesian" being similarly deceptive and irresponsible it would be just as bad.

 

[Treblaine]

I think the problem is that people HAVE watched her videos, and know she's bad at what she does.

Bad at what she does? What I think she does is make videos about topics meant to raise awareness of tropes in video games and then go out and raise money to continue doing so. If that is actually "what she does" then she is a hell of a success. In fact we can quantify it; she is exactly $152,922 more successful than she had originally anticipated needing to be.

Where is your cool extra $150k?

That's circular logic. She got loads of money because she got loads of money.

No, she claimed that she needed it when I an so many others have proven she doesn't need it.

She exaggerated an outrage over her getting some hate mail on the internet, even though every famous person in history has received hate-mail and been classy enough to ignore it and report threats discretely to the police. But she painted herself that the antithesis of a great injustice and kept saying she needs money.

People gave her money for political reasons for painter herself as a troll-fighter, not because everyone assessed she was especially qualified to study analyse or explain this subject.

It's all hype.

 

[Valis88]

Of course, the great irony here is that the vicious response is not only giving Sarkeesian's cause way more publicity than it would have otherwise gotten, but does more to illustrate the problem of misogyny in nerd/gamer culture way more than a video series ever could.

Because seriously, making a videogame about beating a woman in the face for daring to express the point of view that a male-dominated industry doesn't always treat women and female characters like it should, is kind of just making her point for her.

Good job there....goood job.

*slow clap*

...and female gamers feel a little bit safer, oh wait, they don't.

 

[clangunn]

snip

I don't play AS a sexy female too oogle her. If I wanted to oogle at a woman there are FHM and Maxim Magazine photoshoots for that. Or google for oogling. NO ONE plays a game for oogling unless they are extremely sad and desperate, DOA Beach Volleyball is a one-off that did not sell well because at its core it's just a mediocre volleyball sim, completely at odds with oogling.

I think that I my perceptions are skewed by coming from PC multi-player gaming, but if you go to forums dedicated to MMOs (including WoW, FFXI, Aion, etc.) or pay attention to chat in games such as Blacklight Retribution you will repeatedly encounter players who say something along the lines of "I am a male who chooses to play female toons when given the choices. If I am going to staring at my avatar's ass the entire time I play it might as well be a female character model's ass."

Not to say that these individuals are the norm. Nor are they malicious, evil, or intentionally misogynist men. But they do exist, and from the outside looking in they seem very comfortable expressing their personal preference for female characters based their ability to objectify their back-sides.

Characters you want to play exaggerate their gender, they do not hide it or make ambiguous with androgynous looks. Raiden is androgynous but that is the style in Japan for desirable guys, that's what all the guys in pop-groups look and act like. That is pandering to THEIR tastes.

I am jumping into the conversation late, but wasn't the underlying discussion that male-characters serve as an empowerment fantasy for the gaming audience (regardless of the gender of the player) vs. being depicted specifically for the visual stimulation of the players (regardless of the gender of the player)? In that case, if the protagonists in Japanese games are considered "beautiful" rather than "manly" couldn't it be because this is an empowerment fantasy for the Japanese audience (regardless of the gender of the player)? There is a more significant tradition about the sexualized social-power of men as well as females in Japanese society versus in American culture. We tend to attribute the male-power of sexual-beauty to "charisma" whereas women in American society who exert influence through their beauty tend to be judged negatively.

Maybe some of Duke Nukem's "babes" but NONE of the female protagonists. I have made clear how "protagonist" and "object" are totally contradictory with each other, if they are the character riving the story then they are not an object. They are not passive.

Just because a protagonist takes action over the course of the story doesn't mean that they aren't passive subjects to their own narratives. You have to also account for motivations, background, environment, and circumstance.

Here are examples of protagonists I could claim are relatively passive:
1) Forest Gump - cinema & novel
2) Cloud Strife - video game
3) all MMO avatars - video games
4) Black Mamba from Kill Bill - cinema
5) Elizabeth from Pride & Prejudice - literature

I should note that these are all highly arguable. I raise them for the point of the discussion as they are characters that are driven by their stories, rather than driving their stories.

Men only play video games is an unfounded stereotype.

I agree that the impression that video games are solely enjoyed by male audiences is fallacious. However, I think there is enough examples of female gamers on this very board (who have posted in this thread) stating point blank that there are times where their personal enjoyment of the medium is negatively affected by the representation of females in *many*, but not all, video games.

Regarding your later post:

That's circular logic. She got loads of money because she got loads of money.

No, the point is she raised a metric crapton of money because she managed to generate enormous amounts of attention to the issue she wanted people to start talking about, i.e. tropes in video games concerning female characters.

 

[Treblaine]

You still have a problem with not seeing the forest for the trees, but at least you are arguing in the right direction. I meant to use Lara Croft as a hypothetical as the character is well known. Personally I have never done any of the activities that the character has, so I have no idea if her attire is practical. And that is the main point I am making. Does the outfit suit the character and activity/location. But even then that doesn't matter as much if she is a real personality and her decisions and actions make sense. (and yes I agree the movie was terrible. I didn't bother watching the second movie).

I think Ms Sarkeesian is over the top in her views, but there is a reason. Usually when someone is over the top in reaction it's because they have been mistreated. While she pushes to far in on direction it is because she realizes how most women are treated. Maybe instead of attacking her you can point out the flaws in her arguments. Human reaction is to push back when someone pushes us. Attacking her directly isn't going to help her see how to change her arguments, which is why all the idiots attacking her accomplish nothing (although most of them don't want this discussion, they want her to shut up and get into the kitchen).

Unfortunetly most young girls are brought up wrong just as young boys are. They don't feel they are worth enough, and unfortunetly so many things tell them this. One of the issues with dress is that the media makes it seem that girls need to dress slutty to impress boys and that is the only reason, which means their self worth is joined to how well they can impress boys. I'll totally conceed that boys grow up thinking how to impress girls. Hormones control a lot of what we do when we are young. The only problem is that most boys can still keep their own self worth, it is harder for girls to do. But this continues to improve which is why we have to continue to have these discussions. This is all discussed in Miss Representation.

""Maybe we should go through a large number of games and keep tally of women with depth and women who are window dressing. Or you know, get someone else to do it for us."

And what good would that achieve? Art by a quota? That's open to misuse and calamity.
"

Art by quota was not my point. THe question is are female characters in video games given depth and real personalites or are they complete window dressing there onyl to serve young males fantasies. I don't think you will find too many that will be hard to classify as one or the other. The point of this is to show how women are depicted in the genre overall, which is a greater reflection of how women are looked at in society.

Thanks for the professional response. It is nice to discuss issues with someone who doesn't resort to namecalling, making stuff up, or pulling in points that have no relevance to the argument.

Edit. I still have issues making the quotes work so sorry for the poor post.

You say I am not seeing forest for the trees? You can't see Lara's character for her breasts!

"Maybe instead of attacking her you can point out the flaws in her arguments."

Comments like this annoy me as I have been especially careful to ONLY address her arguments and reasoning and NOT attack her personally. I have refered to her by her last name, not patronise her calling her by her first name "Anita". I criticise her concerns, not who she is. I never shot the messenger.

Addressing her specific argument is not "attacking her directly".

Lara Croft and almost every female protagonist ever is absolutely NOT AT ALL about trying to seduce boys or get a husband. Have you played ANY game with a female protagonist? They almost never hook up with a guy.

I DO NOT GET where any girl or woman gets the idea her self worth is dependent on their ability to seduce guys. More the precise opposite, how men are pressured and shamed if they have NOT seduced a woman. It is pretty fine for a girl to remain a virgin into her 20's or to say she waits until marriage, but a great shame for a man to be any significant age over the age of consent and still be a virgin, or be unsuccessful with seducing women.

Male and female characters are peripheral and for superficial purpose, it's just sexist to call all the female versions of this "window dressing".

There are games where women are JUST for looks, but so rare like the strippers in Duke Nukem Forever. But that's about it.

Yes, female protagonist serve a male fantasy but not the fantasy you are thinking of, not masturbation material, but a ROLE PLAY.

 

[BNguyen]

From watching her videos I can say she takes things entirely out of context and many of her subjects she doesn't do research on, only taking them at face value, such as her Christmas songs are sexist review. In that video, it seems she immediately assumes the worst right off the bat, I mean, "I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus" she stated at worst it was the kid's mother getting molested and at best it was the kid's dad dressed up like Santa, but either way, she still took it as being entirely sexist. And another one was "All I want for Christmas is You" and said that it promotes that "all women need is a man". She doesn't even give the song a second thought about how it could be about love or that it doesn't even mention a man at all and could be a lesbian.
See, I don't like to and even want to take things out of context but she has proved several times that she has and even promotes herself as 'a leader to the uneducated masses'.
What I don't like about the $150K donation is that the people that did donate did not even seem to look at her work or how little effort she puts into her work or research.
When she actually takes the time to research, then maybe I could take her seriously.

But what bothers me on this game is that someone is posting their opinion and people want to shut them down for it while they allow her to make claims with little to no repercussions against her for doing the same thing, even promoting her for her opinions with how little input she has. You cannot take away one sides free speech without taking away the other.

 

[Something Amyss]

2) If your right, and having a vagina increases the probability of success in "begging for money" why is it that most panhandlers I have encountered in metropolitan markets across the world are primarily males?

Because the women get more money and can get off the streets. [/bad joke]

So in summary:
Woman trolls Internet.

Pretty loose version of "trolling" here, it seems.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

People!? This is newgrouds. 90% of "people" on Newgrounds barely know how to wipe their own arses, nevermind think logically. I do browse Newgrounds, granted, but I still know it's a galactic sized shithole most of the time.

I would agree, but they did blam the Flash. This alone is indicative that there's a few sound minds somewhere in there.

I mean, besides David Firth. This guy is not sane. Ohmigod, Salad Fingers scares the crap out of me. [/disgusted shiver]

He's talented as all Hell, though.

 

[Khazoth]

From watching her videos I can say she takes things entirely out of context and many of her subjects she doesn't do research on, only taking them at face value, such as her Christmas songs are sexist review. In that video, it seems she immediately assumes the worst right off the bat, I mean, "I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus" she stated at worst it was the kid's mother getting molested and at best it was the kid's dad dressed up like Santa, but either way, she still took it as being entirely sexist. And another one was "All I want for Christmas is You" and said that it promotes that "all women need is a man". She doesn't even give the song a second thought about how it could be about love or that it doesn't even mention a man at all and could be a lesbian.
See, I don't like to and even want to take things out of context but she has proved several times that she has and even promotes herself as 'a leader to the uneducated masses'.
What I don't like about the $150K donation is that the people that did donate did not even seem to look at her work or how little effort she puts into her work or research.
When she actually takes the time to research, then maybe I could take her seriously.

But what bothers me on this game is that someone is posting their opinion and people want to shut them down for it while they allow her to make claims with little to no repercussions against her for doing the same thing, even promoting her for her opinions with how little input she has. You cannot take away one sides free speech without taking away the other.

In this woman's defense, she's not too stupid, she's just a feminist. There is a modern sub-genre of the feminist movement that I like to call "The world revolves around my vagina."


This woman is a product of that.

 

[tacotrainwreck]

Not exactly sure if I agree on this article's title. No game in history has ever made me do anything.

 

[Khazoth]

People!? This is newgrouds. 90% of "people" on Newgrounds barely know how to wipe their own arses, nevermind think logically. I do browse Newgrounds, granted, but I still know it's a galactic sized shithole most of the time.

I would agree, but they did blam the Flash. This alone is indicative that there's a few sound minds somewhere in there.

I mean, besides David Firth. This guy is not sane. Ohmigod, Salad Fingers scares the crap out of me. [/disgusted shiver]

He's talented as all Hell, though.

How many times do I gotta say this.. Yeah.. They blammed /this/ flash but.. For gods sake take a look at the crap they didn't blam. You know.. Like the dozens of games based on real life massacres?

 

[Chives on top of me]

snip

snip

What you don't seem to get is that you cannot remove the designer/author from the equation... It does not matter if the motivations make sense to you or not. It does not matter if the character is well written or not. What matters is how or why the character was written that way in the first place.

The question is not, Does the "character" want to wear this? or even, Is there proper motivation for the character to wear this? It is Why did the designer put a character in this outfit?

In DOA Extreme Volleyball there does exist in the narrative an explanation for why the female fighters are all in bikinis. They are on vacation on a tropical island and there even seems to be a lack of men...perhaps making even the most shy member of the group feel free enough to "dress down". Would you really call this a game that can be seen as a game empowering or enabling for women? Of course not... it is a game made for men/boys.

The designer is the one that must answer to anyone that has an issue.

Well DOA Beach Volleyball is a rare isolated example that virtually no body cares about. Right from the very beginning the developers made clear it was for titillation and will make any contrivance for that.

DOA Beach Volleyball is NOT REPRESENTATIVE of most video games! the developers said it was trash, everyone agreed it was trash. And it didn't work, people didn't want just titillation to compensate for a fundamentally crap game. 73% on metacritic. Again, with Duke Nukem Forever, filling it with random nude women begging to do it with Duke did not compensate for the crap gameplay.

There is a specific example where it is utterly transparent that the girls dress that way ONLY to look sexy.

But that is not the case EVERYWHERE that women show skin in some video games.

Any question of games that take themselves seriously and don't consider themselves exploitative trash, like "why did snake leave Foxhound" only makes sense if you consider the fictional character, not try to break immersion as if EVERYTHING that happens is completely arbitrary and pandering to the audience. Not contrivance, not exploitation.

You can't tar all games with the same Brush.

Just because Team Ninja admitted to only putting women in bikinis for DOA Beach Volleyball, that doesn't mean IN EVERY CASE where women show some skin it is ONLY for superficial titillation or wank material

heh...sexism and or "demeaning" depictions of women in video games are not all or nothing. Each depiction/action is judged on a case by case basis...like in the real world.

"why did snake leave Foxhound".....this is contrived... the writer contrived it...if it is well written then it will not seem "out of character". However well written or not this is still the writer making snake do something....back to the clothing issue the designer still puts the character in whatever outfit and their reasons for this action are subject to scrutiny ...how is this unclear?

 

[Something Amyss]

Just because Team Ninja admitted to only putting women in bikinis for DOA Beach Volleyball, that doesn't mean IN EVERY CASE where women show some skin it is ONLY for superficial titillation or wank material

Which also doesn't mean it's not in most cases. I don't know why people seem to be stuck on this all-or-nothing kick.