Florida minimum wage vote and social conservatism

[dreng3]

In the recent election Florida voted to raise the minimum wage to $15/hour making it one of the non-blue states to have a $15 minimum wage. This suggest that the american democratic party is misunderstanding opinion of the general populace, instead of being economically-centrist and socially-liberal the party should rather strive for left-leaning fiscal policy and a more centrist position on identity and culture issues.

Does this seem like an overstatement?

 

[Silvanus]

In the recent election Florida voted to raise the minimum wage to $15/hour making it one of the non-blue states to have a $15 minimum wage. This suggest that the american democratic party is misunderstanding opinion of the general populace, instead of being economically-centrist and socially-liberal the party should rather strive for left-leaning fiscal policy and a more centrist position on identity and culture issues.

What's a "centrist" position on an identity or culture issue?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

What's a "centrist" position on an identity or culture issue?

This. I'm not sure what exactly is being imagined here. Or tbh why it'd work, social conservatives are pretty rabid about sticking religion etc into everything

 

[dreng3]

What's a "centrist" position on an identity or culture issue?

Fair question. I consider it as "Don't rock the boat". The results in Florida suggests that the red parts of the U.S. doesn't care for protests in the streets for racial justice, people speaking out against racially motivated violence or institutional racism. While most on this site can probably agree that such things are for the best it would seem that the democrats could gain more popular support by promoting a higher minimum wage, universal healthcare, and worker protection.

As an outsider it seems to me that a lot of red states are more concerned with their wallets than equality. Preserving the status quo on in terms of social issues.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Fair question. I consider it as "Don't rock the boat". The results in Florida suggests that the red parts of the U.S. doesn't care for protests in the streets for racial justice, people speaking out against racially motivated violence or institutional racism. While most on this site can probably agree that such things are for the best it would seem that the democrats could gain more popular support by promoting a higher minimum wage, universal healthcare, and worker protection.

As an outsider it seems to me that a lot of red states are more concerned with their wallets than equality. Preserving the status quo on in terms of social issues.

That sounds a hell of a lot like ignore social issues and tell people who suffer to suck it up

 

[Agema]

What's a "centrist" position on an identity or culture issue?

I think they mean talk less about privilege; women's, LGBTQ and minority ethnic rights. Although I'm not sure that's necessarily "centreist" as such.

 

[dreng3]

That sounds a hell of a lot like ignore social issues and tell people who suffer to suck it up

Doesn't it just? I don't agree with the notion, but it seems to me, as an outside observer and supporter of left-leaning policy in general, that it is what America wants.

It seems to me, that the broad support for things like decriminalization, voter reeinfranchisement, universal healthcare, and a social safety-net, suggests that democrats should be way more popular amongst voters. As such a possible explanation is that while there is support for the fiscal policy the stance on social issues might actually be harming the democratic party.

Which is bad but also encourages the question of why that is. Is it because of insufficient education (I'm a big fan of education so I think that is part of it)? That some areas/states are too homogenous? That the culture war is an unwinnable one? Or something else entirely?

 

[Silvanus]

Fair question. I consider it as "Don't rock the boat". The results in Florida suggests that the red parts of the U.S. doesn't care for protests in the streets for racial justice, people speaking out against racially motivated violence or institutional racism. While most on this site can probably agree that such things are for the best it would seem that the democrats could gain more popular support by promoting a higher minimum wage, universal healthcare, and worker protection.

As an outsider it seems to me that a lot of red states are more concerned with their wallets than equality. Preserving the status quo on in terms of social issues.

I don't think the Democratic Party taking stances on these issues would turn many people off who wouldn't already be Republican voters. But if the Democratic Party was quiet on this stuff, it would imperil the coalition they've built.

Economically, yes, there's a lot to be gained electorally by abandoning vapid centrism and embracing workers' rights, higher wages, workplace protections, etc. American voters want that stuff, including independents and even a chunk of Republicans. But there's no reason to abandon the social causes that are important to the core Democratic base.

 

[Buyetyen]

As such a possible explanation is that while there is support for the fiscal policy the stance on social issues might actually be harming the democratic party.

I don't buy this. The right has lost every culture war battle so far. If Americans were really as backward as you suppose, those victories never would have happened. The only reason we have culture war fights is because the right are better propagandists. And with the way demographics are shifting, I question the wisdom of betting everything on Dumb Whitey.

 

[dreng3]

I don't think the Democratic Party taking stances on these issues would turn many people off who wouldn't already be Republican voters. But if the Democratic Party was quiet on this stuff, it would imperil the coalition they've built.

Economically, yes, there's a lot to be gained electorally by abandoning vapid centrism and embracing workers' rights, higher wages, workplace protections, etc. American voters want that stuff, including independents and even a chunk of Republicans. But there's no reason to abandon the social causes that are important to the core Democratic base.

To me it seems as if U.S. politics is divided into two sections, party fiscal policy and party social policy.
It seems as if the main draw of republicans is that they aren't as far left (or at all left) on social issues. The fiscally-conservative approach seems to lack general support. The main republican attack strategy seems aimed at immigration and changes to the social status quo. And democrats seem all too willing to bring up their views on social reform, while it might actually be harmful.

I'm not suggesting that democrats should lie, but might it not be better for democrats to focus more on fiscally-leftist policies instead of engaging the republican party in the so-called culture war?

 

[Buyetyen]

I'm not suggesting that democrats should lie, but might it not be better for democrats to focus more on fiscally-leftist policies instead of engaging the republican party in the so-called culture war?

In other words, "Sorry, minorities. Maybe next generation." Do you think they've heard that tune before?

 

[dreng3]

I don't buy this. The right has lost every culture war battle so far. If Americans were really as backward as you suppose, those victories never would have happened. The only reason we have culture war fights is because the right are better propagandists. And with the way demographics are shifting, I question the wisdom of betting everything on Dumb Whitey.

Reality has a leftist bias.

But yeah, republicans will eventually lose every battle over culture, butin the last couple of elections the overarching themes have been "globalism", "immigration", "BLM", and "Antifa".

Republican don't gain ground on fiscal issues, the only stand they have left to take is social and cultural issues. If democrats shifted the focus to fiscal policy they might win more seats, thus making it easier to implement both the popular fiscal policies and the less popular cultural ones.

 

[dreng3]

In other words, "Sorry, minorities. Maybe next generation." Do you think they've heard that tune before?

More like a "We aren't actually gonna talk about social issues during election season, instead we'll just be focusing on fiscal issue, and once we win big (because people love our fiscal profile) we'll pull off our masks to reveal ourselves as both fiscally and socially responsible"

 

[Buyetyen]

But yeah, republicans will eventually lose every battle over culture, butin the last couple of elections the overarching themes have been "globalism", "immigration", "BLM", and "Antifa".

Because a lot of white people are racist. And this is what demagogues have been doing since politics was invented. The Republicans are hardly unique in this regard.

More like a "We aren't actually gonna talk about social issues during election season, instead we'll just be focusing on fiscal issue, and once we win big (because people love our fiscal profile) we'll pull off our masks to reveal ourselves as both fiscally and socially responsible"

Which to them means the same damn thing as, "Fuck off." Again, do you think they haven't heard this before?

 

[dreng3]

Because a lot of white people are racist. And this is what demagogues have been doing since politics was invented. The Republicans are hardly unique in this regard.



Which to them means the same damn thing as, "Fuck off." Again, do you think they haven't heard this before?

I guess. I'm honestly just frustrated to see the democrats using a lot of effort on something that won't win them any votes.
What is the point of pretending to be centrist on fiscal policy when everyone wants the leftist fiscal policy, but at the same time being super leftist on the social policy when large parts of the country wants centrist/right-leaning social policy?

 

[ObsidianJones]

Fair question. I consider it as "Don't rock the boat". The results in Florida suggests that the red parts of the U.S. doesn't care for protests in the streets for racial justice, people speaking out against racially motivated violence or institutional racism. While most on this site can probably agree that such things are for the best it would seem that the democrats could gain more popular support by promoting a higher minimum wage, universal healthcare, and worker protection.

As an outsider it seems to me that a lot of red states are more concerned with their wallets than equality. Preserving the status quo on in terms of social issues.

As someone who just moved here, I'm going to stay that I believe the State Motto should be "Fuck you, I'm Good".

This is the essence of denying or acknowledging someone else's point of view, but then noting that either way it doesn't matter because life is good for them.

I went to my flight school yesterday before Eta decided to be a jerk. And Instead of the typical Trump and Pence election signs, I saw a different kind of sign. Trump in a pair of sunglasses with "I'll Be Back".

We're talking about a state that actually has the nickname "God's waiting Room". Even the Governor referred to it as such. It's well known that there are a great deal of elderly people here. But a good deal of people couldn't throw away their masks quick enough after Governor DeSantis eased Mask Restrictions, not caring about the potential repercussions to the populous.

Doesn't matter that Covid is continuing to run amuck. Doesn't matter how dangerous this is. These people treat the virus as a joke. Why else would a Governor hire a sports-blogging, anti-mask, Uber driver with no medical credentials to analyze data of which the Governor's new hire admits he "is not an expert on".

Without offense, Dreng, the issue that we're having here is that once again, people are trying to put logic towards an purely emotional base. A country that over all succeeds actually benefits everyone. A country that unifies in changing a mindset or working towards a goal (say like discovering an alternative fuel source than fossil fuels) will be a country that would be set for life. There are logical, beneficial things to strive for.

But emotionally that doesn't feel good. You know what feels good? Winning. Being Free! BEING AN AMERICAN!!! No matter how assbackwards stupid you define what being an American means, you will cheer, hoot and holler that you defied those leftist idiots... even while you start coughing.

And then we go to winning. Earning more money is winning. The rest of the country can go screw themselves. If my daughter and my son make more money, and the rest of the country doesn't? Winning.

This isn't about any social reform or misreading the numbers. In fact, most Democrats and Republicans agree on some form of wage increase. In fact, most Democrats and Republicans seem to agree on most major things. But alas, our politicians are like Union leaders. If things are going well, they don't have a job. So for job security, it makes more sense to make both sides antagonistic to each other than actually working to do beneficial things for the people they represent.

 

[Buyetyen]

I guess. I'm honestly just frustrated to see the democrats using a lot of effort on something that won't win them any votes.
What is the point of pretending to be centrist on fiscal policy when everyone wants the leftist fiscal policy, but at the same time being super leftist on the social policy when large parts of the country wants centrist/right-leaning social policy?

The Democratic establishment aren't even that socially leftist. They're dedicated centrists, which as I've said are just conservatives with commitment issues. You're sounding a lot like them right now. "Oh, nobody wants us to be leftists! I guess we need to move further to the right to appease all the bigots."

No, the reason Dems keep losing is because the establishment candidates are just Diet Republican. And in such a case as that, why would a voter go for the cheap knock-off instead of the real thing? Establishment Dems lose because they're phonies who stand up for nothing. The progressives are the ones who are making real headway. The number of them and Congress just double this election cycle. Maybe the issue isn't that Dems are too far left. Maybe the issue is that establishment Dems are milquetoast weaklings with no convictions to have courage in.

The Dems really need the votes of non-white and queer populations. Telling them, "Not yet, maybe later," is something the Civil Rights Movement specifically criticized. "A right delayed is a right denied."

 

[dreng3]

As someone who just moved here, I'm going to stay that I believe the State Motto should be "Fuck you, I'm Good".

We're talking about a state that actually has the nickname "God's waiting Room". Even the Governor referred to it as such. It's well known that there are a great deal of elderly people here.

Without offense, Dreng, the issue that we're having here is that once again, people are trying to put logic towards an purely emotional base. A country that over all succeeds actually benefits everyone. A country that unifies in changing a mindset or working towards a goal (say like discovering an alternative fuel source than fossil fuels) will be a country that would be set for life. There are logical, beneficial things to strive for.

"Fuck you, got mine" seems the American motto these days, but disregarding that.

The fact about elderly people is that they still voted to increase minimum wage, something they won't see the benefits off, with a lot of them being pensioners, that shows a support for leftist fiscal policy.

I think my issue is that the democrats have tried, for the better part of my lifetime, to appeal to the emotional side of americans, when a lot of americans really don't give a damn about his/her fellow man. Appeal to emotion hasn't worked, time to try the fiscal appeal. "Don't care for BLM or antifa? Fine we won't really bring it up, we'll just be quite about it and present exactly the policies you actually like". Of course this is somewhat populistic in nature, but the democratic party is fighting against someone whose only appeal is populism and culture war. If the democrats insist on fighting on the hometurf of republicans losing shouldn't be a surprise.

The Sun Tzu quote goes "know yourself and your enemy and you shall win a thousand battles" The democrats haven't understood that they are appealing to the voters through the wrong policies, social vs. fiscal, and that the "enemy" only has one thing to offer, a culture war. If you took away the culture war I honestly don't think the republicans would ever win another election.

"Oh, nobody wants us to be leftists! I guess we need to move further to the right to appease all the bigots."

I think that closes in on my problem with the democratic party. What should've been "Oh, nobody wants us to be social leftists! I guess we need to stop presenting ourselves as social leftists and focus on the fiscal leftists policies to appease the general populace" becomes "Oh, nobody wants us to be leftists! I guess we need to move further to the right to appease all the bigots.".
I won't even say that the democrats adopt an all-or-nothing approach, because it rather seems that they've adopted a "leftists social policy"-or-nothing approach. How can the party be willing to see the poor disenfranchised and dying in the streets but not to compromise on social issues(or even pretend to compromise)?

 

[Silvanus]

To me it seems as if U.S. politics is divided into two sections, party fiscal policy and party social policy.
It seems as if the main draw of republicans is that they aren't as far left (or at all left) on social issues. The fiscally-conservative approach seems to lack general support. The main republican attack strategy seems aimed at immigration and changes to the social status quo. And democrats seem all too willing to bring up their views on social reform, while it might actually be harmful.

I'm not suggesting that democrats should lie, but might it not be better for democrats to focus more on fiscally-leftist policies instead of engaging the republican party in the so-called culture war?

No. This would just be ceding ground, to the detriment of various demographics that make up the Democrats' support bases. It would alienate and disenfranchise those people for no discernible benefit.

The right has pushed a "culture war" narrative on social-political issues, but in truth there's nothing to be lost from greater social egalitarianism. If Democrats compromised even further than they already have, it's not as if the Republicans would compromise in return; it was always just a weapon of convenience to them. You don't beat that cynical obstructionism by giving in. You beat it by catering to people in a more authentic, compelling way.

 

[Buyetyen]

Appeal to emotion hasn't worked, time to try the fiscal appeal.

I don't know, it's working pretty great for the Republicans.

"Don't care for BLM or antifa? Fine we won't really bring it up, we'll just be quite about it and present exactly the policies you actually like". Of course this is somewhat populistic in nature, but the democratic party is fighting against someone whose only appeal is populism and culture war. If the democrats insist on fighting on the hometurf of republicans losing shouldn't be a surprise.

It's really not. Populistic, that is. You can't call yourself a populist and then throw some of your most important constituencies to the wolves in the name of political expediency. That's not populist, it's mercenary. You think you're telling the Dems to be more authentic, but you're really telling them to be even phonier than they already are.

The Sun Tzu quote goes "know yourself and your enemy and you shall win a thousand battles" The democrats haven't understood that they are appealing to the voters through the wrong policies, social vs. fiscal, and that the "enemy" only has one thing to offer, a culture war. If you took away the culture war I honestly don't think the republicans would ever win another election.

Which is why the Republicans make culture war issues their raison d'etre. Refusing to take a stand and letting them dictate the narrative on social policy would be a disaster. Stand up for something, damn it!

I think that closes in on my problem with the democratic party. What should've been "Oh, nobody wants us to be social leftists! I guess we need to stop presenting ourselves as social leftists and focus on the fiscal leftists policies to appease the general populace" becomes "Oh, nobody wants us to be leftists! I guess we need to move further to the right to appease all the bigots.".
I won't even say that the democrats adopt an all-or-nothing approach, because it rather seems that they've adopted a "leftists social policy"-or-nothing approach. How can the party be willing to see the poor disenfranchised and dying in the streets but not to compromise on social issues(or even pretend to compromise)?

This should be good. What compromises are there to be made on civil rights?