Florida minimum wage vote and social conservatism

[Terminal Blue]

I won't deny that the Dems have ignored the working class in general. Focusing on them to the exclusion of other core constituencies is not a viable solution.

It's important to remember that while they are far more numerous, the working class is far less politically engaged and far less powerful than the other classes (who collectively constitute the "political" class), and because of this they're extremely easy to manipulate.

I don't hold with this whole idea that the Democrats are anti-working class because they won't talk about economic issues. Conservatives don't talk to working class people about economic issues. They talk about social issues. Your average working class conservative doesn't give a single shit about the minimum wage, even if they're on minimum wage and would directly benefit from raising it. They care about whether insignificant numbers of Mexicans enter the country legally, or whether black people refuse to stand for the national anthem in a sports game. These things have absolutely no bearing on them, and that is the point. All of the efforts of the political class, the people who write the media they consume and set the political agenda, is focused on distracting the working class from things that actually matter.

The truth is, noone cares about the working class. You don't need the support or consent of the working class. You only need the support or consent of the the political class. The people who are politically engaged, who actually have power and influence, and who set the agenda that the working class follow.

 

[Gergar12]

There are lots of people in the South who like liberal economic and conservative social policy. Or as I call them the anti-Reddit people.

Granted if they stay away from immigration I like those people more than the liberal social policy, and conservative economical policy people.

 

[Trunkage]

There are lots of people in the South who like liberal economic and conservative social policy. Or as I call them the anti-Reddit people.

Granted if they stay away from immigration I like those people more than the liberal social policy, and conservative economical policy people.

That just sounds like The Hill

 

[Schadrach]

In other words, "Sorry, minorities. Maybe next generation." Do you think they've heard that tune before?

You don't drop the identity politics planks, or at least not entirely - you just don't use them as your primary marketing tactic.

Economically, yes, there's a lot to be gained electorally by abandoning vapid centrism and embracing workers' rights, higher wages, workplace protections, etc. American voters want that stuff, including independents and even a chunk of Republicans.

The largest armed uprising in the US after the Civil War (and the largest labor uprising in the US ever) was fought over unionizing coal mines in WV - the Battle of Blair Mountain. WV was solidly blue until about 2000. The first woman we ever sent to Congress was more notable as the first Republican we'd sent to Congress in something like half a century.

We went something like 70/30 to Trump, both times.

Turns out that we were blue because of all that pro-worker stuff and when Dems put it on the back burner and started talking about wanting to expedite the demise of our largest industries (not coincidentally the ones with the biggest unions attached) that...wasn't good for their support here. Turns out talking about wanting to put mines and miners out of business is *terrible* for your support in a place where most of your base is connected (directly or indirectly) to UMWA and there's a miner on the state seal.

Turns out when you've got a mostly traditional, 94% white population putting racial/gender/LGBTQIAA2SP+ issues at the forefront of how you sell yourself alongside "we want to destroy your local economy as fast as possible" and putting all the pro-worker, pro-union stuff on the back burner just doesn't sell.

And that's the sad part - all the pro-worker stuff is an easy sell in most of the places that reliably go GOP currently.

 

[Silvanus]

The largest armed uprising in the US after the Civil War (and the largest labor uprising in the US ever) was fought over unionizing coal mines in WV - the Battle of Blair Mountain. WV was solidly blue until about 2000. The first woman we ever sent to Congress was more notable as the first Republican we'd sent to Congress in something like half a century.

We went something like 70/30 to Trump, both times.

Turns out that we were blue because of all that pro-worker stuff and when Dems put it on the back burner and started talking about wanting to expedite the demise of our largest industries (not coincidentally the ones with the biggest unions attached) that...wasn't good for their support here. Turns out talking about wanting to put mines and miners out of business is *terrible* for your support in a place where most of your base is connected (directly or indirectly) to UMWA and there's a miner on the state seal.

Ok, but realistically, what other option is there in the long term apart from phasing out coal? It's a severely diminishing resource, ruinously damaging to the planet. And yet fossil fuels still receive federal subsidy.

Supporting a destructive, costly industry purely for regional political capital is not a good approach to electioneering, and nor is it good governance.

Turns out when you've got a mostly traditional, 94% white population putting racial/gender/LGBTQIAA2SP+ issues at the forefront of how you sell yourself alongside "we want to destroy your local economy as fast as possible" and putting all the pro-worker, pro-union stuff on the back burner just doesn't sell.

That stuff isn't actually at the forefront of the Democratic campaigns, of course--- it's the right that endlessly pushes the "culture war" narrative, and nurses false grievances against minorities. The Democrats don't even bring it up half as often, except for occasionally supporting genuine civil rights & equal protection under the law, which is surely inarguable.

 

[Buyetyen]

You don't drop the identity politics planks, or at least not entirely - you just don't use them as your primary marketing tactic.

Pretty sure they've heard that before, too.

 

[Agema]

Turns out that we were blue because of all that pro-worker stuff and when Dems put it on the back burner and started talking about wanting to expedite the demise of our largest industries (not coincidentally the ones with the biggest unions attached) that...wasn't good for their support here.

Well, coal is most definitely f***ed; it's very unlikely anything can save it.

The best answer would have been perhaps to offer some replacement, but that requires an interventionist government and the risk of government-mandated inefficiency; plus even if the Democrats were willing (and they aren't much), one Republican chamber will probably kill any such attempts stone dead because they do not like the government getting involved (unless it's splurging endless billions at defence contractors to make fighter jets).

WV should be good for wind power. Might not create the same jobs as coal, nor replace the loss of generations of coal mining culture, but it's something. Really, it seems like a fantastic idea to subsidise wind turbine factories in places like Ohio so they get some manufacturing jobs back, and put them in WV for power generation and maintenance jobs. On the other hand, I'm not "the invisible hand" of the market and that proposal might not be economically most efficient.

 

[Trunkage]

Well, coal is most definitely f***ed; it's very unlikely anything can save it.

The best answer would have been perhaps to offer some replacement, but that requires an interventionist government and the risk of government-mandated inefficiency; plus even if the Democrats were willing (and they aren't much), one Republican chamber will probably kill any such attempts stone dead because they do not like the government getting involved (unless it's splurging endless billions at defence contractors to make fighter jets).

WV should be good for wind power. Might not create the same jobs as coal, nor replace the loss of generations of coal mining culture, but it's something. Really, it seems like a fantastic idea to subsidise wind turbine factories in places like Ohio so they get some manufacturing jobs back, and put them in WV for power generation and maintenance jobs. On the other hand, I'm not "the invisible hand" of the market and that proposal might not be economically most efficient.

I've gotta point out the parts of WV are the poorest in the whole country. Maybe coal destroys just as much as it creates...

 

[Agema]

I've gotta point out the parts of WV are the poorest in the whole country. Maybe coal destroys just as much as it creates...

Environmentally it's a pretty devastating industry, and miners definitely aren't paid well. But if mining has provided tens or hundreds of thousands of people with their livelihoods for generations, if whole communities are built around it, it's going to be very important to that population - and even worse if those jobs go without new ones created.

 

[Trunkage]

Environmentally it's a pretty devastating industry, and miners definitely aren't paid well. But if mining has provided tens or hundreds of thousands of people with their livelihoods for generations, if whole communities are built around it, it's going to be very important to that population - and even worse if those jobs go without new ones created.

There was a mine opened up in a town called Mackay, Queensland. In short order, house prices skyrocketed, anything not related to the mines withered and died, people moved away because they couldn't stay ecomonically. Nor did they like a bunch of rich twenty year olds getting hammered on their days off, drink driving and smashing place. Then the mine dried up. Every ecomonic gain flowed away.

Fortunately, a new mine started about a decade later. The economy is picking up again. But even more people have moved away. It's no longer the same place and seems totally addicted to coal.

I can understand why there are people who hate greenies. Literally, their life depends on it. They're addicted and cant do anything else

 

[Agema]

There was a mine opened up in a town called Mackay, Queensland. In short order, house prices skyrocketed, anything not related to the mines withered and died, people moved away because they couldn't stay ecomonically. Nor did they like a bunch of rich twenty year olds getting hammered on their days off, drink driving and smashing place. Then the mine dried up. Every ecomonic gain flowed away.

Fortunately, a new mine started about a decade later. The economy is picking up again. But even more people have moved away. It's no longer the same place and seems totally addicted to coal.

I can understand why there are people who hate greenies. Literally, their life depends on it. They're addicted and cant do anything else

Yeah, that's how it goes. But it's not really dissimilar to anything else: a boom will cause rapid job creation, population influx and price rises, and then if the source of wealth goes away, it all collapses again. Take a place like the Welsh valleys - in 1700 these were barely populated with just a handful of sheep-farming villages before coal and iron was exploited. Hundreds of thousands moved in, but now the mining is gone, so to villages it is gradually returning. The population has shrunk by about half in the last 40-50 years, and it's got plenty more shrinking to do. But that's an incredibly painful and depressing experience for the people who live there. People tend to like what they know.

I think there can be a role for government in assisting this sort of transition. If a place is economically doomed, there's no point propping it up. But the government can try to smooth the downward adjustment and help people move on (including quite often, move out) rather than just leave it on baseline welfare.