Forbes Article: "Zack Snyder Loves Superman, And 'Batman V Superman' Proves It"

[Dreph]

For those who say that Snyder 'doesn't understand' the character of Superman, I'm just curious... how? How does he not understand? Given that these characters have been around for decades and numerous writers have given their takes on the character, I don't see how people consider this version so blasphemous, especially when many of the traits this version has have been done before.

I think this video sums up what Superman is all about.

<youtube=dDMQ3tXNKgM>

Just watched that and I have the last thirty seconds pretty much perfectly sums up superman. Beyond that it was a fascinating watch.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

For those who say that Snyder 'doesn't understand' the character of Superman, I'm just curious... how? How does he not understand? Given that these characters have been around for decades and numerous writers have given their takes on the character, I don't see how people consider this version so blasphemous, especially when many of the traits this version has have been done before.

I think this video sums up what Superman is all about.

<youtube=dDMQ3tXNKgM>

Just watched that and I have the last thirty seconds pretty much perfectly sums up superman. Beyond that it was a fascinating watch.

The sad thing is the the people dislikes Superman has as just a strong voice and opinion as the pro Superman fans.

They say he's too one-dimensional, too wooden, to powerful, to much of a Deus Ex Machina that it is impossible to care about him.

I mean why else is Batman constantly favored over Superman? I mean we had a freakin debate about this a while ago which baffles me.

Do you LIKE Superman even though you can't relate to him but relate more to Batman?

 

[Dreph]

For those who say that Snyder 'doesn't understand' the character of Superman, I'm just curious... how? How does he not understand? Given that these characters have been around for decades and numerous writers have given their takes on the character, I don't see how people consider this version so blasphemous, especially when many of the traits this version has have been done before.

I think this video sums up what Superman is all about.

<youtube=dDMQ3tXNKgM>

Just watched that and I have the last thirty seconds pretty much perfectly sums up superman. Beyond that it was a fascinating watch.

The sad thing is the the people dislikes Superman has as just a strong voice and opinion as the pro Superman fans.

They say he's too one-dimensional, too wooden, to powerful, to much of a Deus Ex Machina that it is impossible to care about him.

I mean why else is Batman constantly favored over Superman? I mean we had a freakin debate about this a while ago which baffles me.

Do you LIKE Superman even though you can't relate to him but relate more to Batman?

Personally I relate to superman more than batman. How do you relate to a super genius billionaire who wins every conflict through prediction and preparation? Don't get me wrong I love the batman from the DC animated universe, but the comic book one not so much. A lot of authors just make him even more infallible than superman and he ends up being completely uninteresting.

Superman also has this problem, but at the core he is just a guy trying to do the right thing with the powers he has, which I find more relateable than batman most of the time. I just wish they had him ultimately make more mistakes, but beyond that I do love superman and batman both. And I would recommend checking out the CD animated universe to everyone.

 

[josemlopes]

What they really needed was a Batman movie to establish his character,

I disagree, as I feel Batman's character is so stock standard across the board than you could ask a kid in North Korea in the middle of a foreign media blackout who Batman is and they could give you a solid answer. But frankly, as long as it wasn't another origin story I wouldn't have minded a Bat-Movie before BvS.

Dear god, don't make us suffer through another Bat origin story.

Or a Joker movie for that matter. Or any villain that would be apeing the joker's style and position (ie, how two-face and riddle were basically two jokers in Batman Forever(?) )

No, I'm specifically saying they needed a Batman movie to establish how the events in Man of Steel effected him and turned him into the Batman of BvS. Like you could have a movie where he's trying to bring down Daggett or one of the big crime bosses once and for all, but after the Man of Steel events, he just snaps and ends up killing him. And the movie ends with him blaming Superman for what he did and realizing he can't feel that the world is safe as long as Superman is alive and vows to kill him.

No, thats terrible, the movie outright shows how he changed, when he starts branding the criminals (basicly sentencing them to death in prison) Alfred asks if its a new rule for Bruce. Right there it showed him changing, becoming more cruel (the point of the movie).

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

What they really needed was a Batman movie to establish his character,

I disagree, as I feel Batman's character is so stock standard across the board than you could ask a kid in North Korea in the middle of a foreign media blackout who Batman is and they could give you a solid answer. But frankly, as long as it wasn't another origin story I wouldn't have minded a Bat-Movie before BvS.

Dear god, don't make us suffer through another Bat origin story.

Or a Joker movie for that matter. Or any villain that would be apeing the joker's style and position (ie, how two-face and riddle were basically two jokers in Batman Forever(?) )

No, I'm specifically saying they needed a Batman movie to establish how the events in Man of Steel effected him and turned him into the Batman of BvS. Like you could have a movie where he's trying to bring down Daggett or one of the big crime bosses once and for all, but after the Man of Steel events, he just snaps and ends up killing him. And the movie ends with him blaming Superman for what he did and realizing he can't feel that the world is safe as long as Superman is alive and vows to kill him.

No, thats terrible, the movie outright shows how he changed, when he starts branding the criminals (basicly sentencing them to death in prison) Alfred asks if its a new rule for Bruce. Right there it showed him changing, becoming more cruel (the point of the movie).

Well, part of the problem is that BvS says a lot of stuff about whats going on, but it rarely shows it. Batman brands a grand total of two criminals, and its not made clear in the movie if he was aware of what that would mean when they got to prison. When he does see whats happening to them, he doesn't react much to it, and its hard to tell if that's because 'its as I planned' or 'I don't really care one way or another.' He doesn't brand anyone else after he finds out about the beating, but again, we don't know if that's because he doesn't want to execute people by proxy, or because he just didn't get a chance because he's too busy dealing with Superman.

It's part of the problem with how crammed the movie was - It brings up a dozen of things like this, but either fails to explain them because their isn't time, or it provides an answer that's not really an answer at all, or so ham fisted that you just don't care.

 

[Kyman102]

My biggest problem with Superman dying, even if he does come back.

DC/WB blew their load too early. They've gotten the shock of Superman dying out here in their second movie. Even if he comes back, they can't try to fake us out again, and if they DO genuinely kill him it won't have the impact because we've already seen the shock of "SUPERMAN IS DEAD!"

Plus, as one of my friends nicely observed: "Dude, this is only the second movie with this Superman. Most viewers aren't even sure if we LIKE the guy yet, and you expect us to be moved when he dies?"

Also, Snyder may not hate HIS Superman, but I'd wager that he doesn't think highly of CLASSIC Superman. The "It's not 1938 anymore" line just felt too on-the-nose to be anything BUT a jab. Like, telling someone you're accusing of being old-fashioned that it's not the year that Superman first debuted? IN a Superman movie? Yeah, there's no way that's a coincidence.

Edit:

Do you LIKE Superman even though you can't relate to him but relate more to Batman?

Personally? Screw Batman. Bastard's had it too good for too long. Too many fanboys running the comics that give him EVERY victory because he's the goddamn Batman. Batman, as another poster has noted, has a power now greater than any Superman can field. Author Fiat. Batman will win, because his ability to plan has given him near-omniscience and omnipotence.

Superman 4 Life, yo, because it seems like in this comic environment, where they keep trying to out-edge one-another and how every hero that isn't Batman isn't Batman enough, I find myself craving some old-fashioned good folks.

There's a reason why of the Cinematic Avengers, Captain America is my favorite. Because he's an all-around good guy trying to help people. Tony is FUNNY, but Steve is my favorite.

Also, I'd go so far as to curse Frank Miller for coming up with the idea of bothering to write "Then Superman and Batman fight". To have the two fight fundamentally misses SEVERAL points.

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh God, Jim Carrey impersonating Johnny Depp as Willy Wonka impersonating the Joker, that's perfect really.

MAKE IT STOP!

Yeah, that actually kind of kills it for me entirely if they're going to find a way to rise him from the grave. I might watch Suicide Squad, especially if they go ahead with the more lighthearted/humorous tonal shift it's been rumored they're in the process of making, but count me out for the rest of it, just like with this movie.

It's one thing to reset the continuity after killing off a character and having them alive in some alternate timeline, but actually bringing Superman back from the dead, making any kind of sacrifice such a hero could make meaningless? Doesn't really seem to fit the tone of the world they're trying to build.

Thing is, when they brought in Doomsday--obviously Doomsday--in that trailer, I was like "are they going to do Death of Superman?" and my answer was "what? No way! Don't be stupid, me! They wouldn't be dumb enough to kill off a main character when we know there are going to be THREE MOVIES featuring him, one in which he's a title role!"

A lot of people said they didn't see the death angle coming. I think a good chunk of them left out why: because it's so freaking stupid to do it here and now.

The irony is, there might be a way Supes stays dead. If Suicide Squad gets a bad reception, DCEU may be scrapped. And there would be no return of Superman. But otherwise, he's coming back. And we know it. The main question is, how. And I know there's been time to plan this, but I bet it's going to sound stupid.

I didn't really like the Death of Superman in the comics, either. The return of Supes at the end of the Reign of the Supermen was just awful. Except that sweet, sweet mullet. >.> Don't judge. But even though I sort of expected him to come back eventually (as most heroes do), I didn't expect it to come that fast. DC really jumped on board the cheap marketing gimmick deal.

Indeed, and as I said, that kind of Batman can actually make sense, if set up properly and eventually put back on the path to redemption, but from the sounds of it, BvS didn't do that and we're left, as you said, the fetish version for the sake of being "dark and edgy".

Well, dark and edgy is what the kids want these days. That's why Marvel has flopped so horrib...wait.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

My biggest problem with Superman dying, even if he does come back.

DC/WB blew their load too early. They've gotten the shock of Superman dying out here in their second movie. Even if he comes back, they can't try to fake us out again, and if they DO genuinely kill him it won't have the impact because we've already seen the shock of "SUPERMAN IS DEAD!"

Plus, as one of my friends nicely observed: "Dude, this is only the second movie with this Superman. Most viewers aren't even sure if we LIKE the guy yet, and you expect us to be moved when he dies?"

Also, Snyder may not hate HIS Superman, but I'd wager that he doesn't think highly of CLASSIC Superman. The "It's not 1938 anymore" line just felt too on-the-nose to be anything BUT a jab. Like, telling someone you're accusing of being old-fashioned that it's not the year that Superman first debuted? IN a Superman movie? Yeah, there's no way that's a coincidence.

Edit:

Do you LIKE Superman even though you can't relate to him but relate more to Batman?

Personally? Screw Batman. Bastard's had it too good for too long. Too many fanboys running the comics that give him EVERY victory because he's the goddamn Batman. Batman, as another poster has noted, has a power now greater than any Superman can field. Author Fiat. Batman will win, because his ability to plan has given him near-omniscience and omnipotence.

Superman 4 Life, yo, because it seems like in this comic environment, where they keep trying to out-edge one-another and how every hero that isn't Batman isn't Batman enough, I find myself craving some old-fashioned good folks.

There's a reason why of the Cinematic Avengers, Captain America is my favorite. Because he's an all-around good guy trying to help people. Tony is FUNNY, but Steve is my favorite.

Also, I'd go so far as to curse Frank Miller for coming up with the idea of bothering to write "Then Superman and Batman fight". To have the two fight fundamentally misses SEVERAL points.

Where were you in my whole "Can we stop with the whole 'Batman is relatable' arguement" thread?

I have had it with Batman's overexporsure aswell.

Especially the Batman only fans. Not giving a damn of the other heroes.

I mean I feel WB and DC depend too much on Batman "because he's the most easiest to write because he has no powers"

And yet they make him OP in different ways. Oh an in the New 52, THEY TURNED HIM INTO A GOD!!!

 

[Kyman102]

Where were you in my whole "Can we stop with the whole 'Batman is relatable' arguement" thread?

I have had it with Batman's overexporsure aswell.

Especially the Batman only fans. Not giving a damn of the other heroes.

I mean I feel WB and DC depend too much on Batman "because he's the most easiest to write because he has no powers"

And yet they make him OP in different ways. Oh an in the New 52, THEY TURNED HIM INTO A GOD!!!

Clearly not here. I remember hearing about the Justice Buster suit. My thought process was this:

"Wait, so Batman built, in secret, a super-mech suit that contains red sun knuckles JUST in case Superman goes rogue? What the fucking FUCK?! When did Batman become Lex Luthor?!"

 

[mduncan50]

Thing is, when they brought in Doomsday--obviously Doomsday--in that trailer, I was like "are they going to do Death of Superman?" and my answer was "what? No way! Don't be stupid, me! They wouldn't be dumb enough to kill off a main character when we know there are going to be THREE MOVIES featuring him, one in which he's a title role!"

This is why my reaction to Supes dying was "So what?". (Beyond the fact that I couldn't care less about this "Superman".) We know he's coming back. We know he starts filming on Justice League in a couple of weeks. You can't make this look like some noble sacrifice when the audience knows that absolutely nothing is actually being sacrificed.

Compare that to Civil War, where the directors have already stated that some people are going to die, and people are actually nervous about it. Hell I watched one girl burst into tears watching the second trailer because it was breaking her heart to even see these people she loved fighting. But there are actual stakes in Civil War, because the actors have been in their roles for a long time, and we know that nearly all of the Phase 1 heroes are coming to the ends of their contracts, so they're not just going to find some BS reason to fix death in the next movie.

Where were you in my whole "Can we stop with the whole 'Batman is relatable' arguement" thread?

I have had it with Batman's overexporsure aswell.

Especially the Batman only fans. Not giving a damn of the other heroes.

Knowing that there are probably a lot of people whose only exposure to DC heroes is from the movies, can we really blame them for not giving a damn about the other heroes? I mean sure, old school Superman was cheesy coolness for two movies, and there are some people that like this current one, but outside of that, who are they supposed to like? Swamp Thing? Supergirl? Steel? Catwoman? Jonah Hex? Green Lantern?

 

[Something Amyss]

This is why my reaction to Supes dying was "So what?". (Beyond the fact that I couldn't care less about this "Superman".) We know he's coming back. We know he starts filming on Justice League in a couple of weeks. You can't make this look like some noble sacrifice when the audience knows that absolutely nothing is actually being sacrificed.

Compare that to Civil War, where the directors have already stated that some people are going to die, and people are actually nervous about it. Hell I watched one girl burst into tears watching the second trailer because it was breaking her heart to even see these people she loved fighting. But there are actual stakes in Civil War, because the actors have been in their roles for a long time, and we know that nearly all of the Phase 1 heroes are coming to the ends of their contracts, so they're not just going to find some BS reason to fix death in the next movie.

Indeed. I've long waited with curiosity to see how death was going to be handled in the MCU. I don't want to lose big characters, but I am intrigued by this movie. I mean, we could argue that the Coulson/Fury fakeouts are extant examples, but they're both fitting of Fury's MO. The Doct...I mean, Fury lies. He fakes people out and manipulates them. If Steve Rogers dies, and the announce him for another three movies, I'll be piiiiiiiiissed.

Hell, the end of DKR features Bruce faking his death. I would buy that. But Superman's heroic sacrifice I already didn't care about because seriously, screw Snyder's Superman isn't really all that big a deal if they're just going to bring him back immediately. Even Spock was killed with the plan of keeping him dead.

Knowing that there are probably a lot of people whose only exposure to DC heroes is from the movies, can we really blame them for not giving a damn about the other heroes? I mean sure, old school Superman was cheesy coolness for two movies, and there are some people that like this current one, but outside of that, who are they supposed to like? Swamp Thing? Supergirl? Steel? Catwoman? Jonah Hex? Green Lantern?

What you say is true, but I'd add that even in the comics, they push Batman super hard. Why wouldn't people be Batman only fans?

"Wait, so Batman built, in secret, a super-mech suit that contains red sun knuckles JUST in case Superman goes rogue? What the fucking FUCK?! When did Batman become Lex Luthor?!"

When Frank Miller started writing him, probably. He wasn't a paranoid psychopath before that.

 

[Kyman102]

When Frank Miller started writing him, probably. He wasn't a paranoid psychopath before that.

God, fuck Frank Miller. Honestly, the part of me that muses over hypotheticals is wondering if removing Sin City would be acceptable collateral for going back in time and getting him into a different line of work than comics.

 

[Cicada 5]

Thing is, when they brought in Doomsday--obviously Doomsday--in that trailer, I was like "are they going to do Death of Superman?" and my answer was "what? No way! Don't be stupid, me! They wouldn't be dumb enough to kill off a main character when we know there are going to be THREE MOVIES featuring him, one in which he's a title role!"

This is why my reaction to Supes dying was "So what?". (Beyond the fact that I couldn't care less about this "Superman".) We know he's coming back. We know he starts filming on Justice League in a couple of weeks. You can't make this look like some noble sacrifice when the audience knows that absolutely nothing is actually being sacrificed.

Compare that to Civil War, where the directors have already stated that some people are going to die, and people are actually nervous about it. Hell I watched one girl burst into tears watching the second trailer because it was breaking her heart to even see these people she loved fighting. But there are actual stakes in Civil War, because the actors have been in their roles for a long time, and we know that nearly all of the Phase 1 heroes are coming to the ends of their contracts, so they're not just going to find some BS reason to fix death in the next movie.

Where were you in my whole "Can we stop with the whole 'Batman is relatable' arguement" thread?

I have had it with Batman's overexporsure aswell.

Especially the Batman only fans. Not giving a damn of the other heroes.

Knowing that there are probably a lot of people whose only exposure to DC heroes is from the movies, can we really blame them for not giving a damn about the other heroes? I mean sure, old school Superman was cheesy coolness for two movies, and there are some people that like this current one, but outside of that, who are they supposed to like? Swamp Thing? Supergirl? Steel? Catwoman? Jonah Hex? Green Lantern?

Well I saw little kids crying when they left the theater after seeing BvS, so I guess Warner achieved their objective as well by your logic.

As for other superheroes to like, people seem pretty excited for Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman and the tv shows have gotten fans to embrace characters like Blue Beetle, Green Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Static, etc.

 

[mduncan50]

Well I saw little kids crying when they left the theater after seeing BvS, so I guess Warner achieved their objective as well by your logic.

As for other superheroes to like, people seem pretty excited for Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman and the tv shows have gotten fans to embrace characters like Blue Beetle, Green Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Static, etc.

Well kids don't tend to deal too well with seeing people die, regardless of who it is. Also, what kind of dumbass parents let their little kids watch this violent angry movie.
And I was talking about people with just exposure to the movies. So they've seen Wonder Woman for about five minutes, and Suicide Squad is currently in reshoots because the people in charge don't have confidence in their product, so I think that's definitely a wait and see. Yes DC has done well with their tv shows for the most part, but many skew quite a bit younger, and even then, the best of the bunch was the Batman animated series IMO.

 

[Cicada 5]

Well I saw little kids crying when they left the theater after seeing BvS, so I guess Warner achieved their objective as well by your logic.

As for other superheroes to like, people seem pretty excited for Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman and the tv shows have gotten fans to embrace characters like Blue Beetle, Green Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Static, etc.

Well kids don't tend to deal too well with seeing people die, regardless of who it is. Also, what kind of dumbass parents let their little kids watch this violent angry movie.
And I was talking about people with just exposure to the movies. So they've seen Wonder Woman for about five minutes, and Suicide Squad is currently in reshoots because the people in charge don't have confidence in their product, so I think that's definitely a wait and see. Yes DC has done well with their tv shows for the most part, but many skew quite a bit younger, and even then, the best of the bunch was the Batman animated series IMO.

I don't see how the reshoots are a sign of worry. Reshoots happen all the damn time, especially with blockbusters. And I even heard it was due to scheduling conflicts with the actor who plays Killer Croc.

 

[mduncan50]

Well I saw little kids crying when they left the theater after seeing BvS, so I guess Warner achieved their objective as well by your logic.

As for other superheroes to like, people seem pretty excited for Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman and the tv shows have gotten fans to embrace characters like Blue Beetle, Green Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Static, etc.

Well kids don't tend to deal too well with seeing people die, regardless of who it is. Also, what kind of dumbass parents let their little kids watch this violent angry movie.
And I was talking about people with just exposure to the movies. So they've seen Wonder Woman for about five minutes, and Suicide Squad is currently in reshoots because the people in charge don't have confidence in their product, so I think that's definitely a wait and see. Yes DC has done well with their tv shows for the most part, but many skew quite a bit younger, and even then, the best of the bunch was the Batman animated series IMO.

I don't see how the reshoots are a sign of worry. Reshoots happen all the damn time, especially with blockbusters. And I even heard it was due to scheduling conflicts with the actor who plays Killer Croc.

No, pickup shoots are something that happen all the time, which means they missed getting certain shots during original filming. What Suicide Squad is doing is reshooting scenes to make them more "fun" and to match the tone of the trailer (which apparently showed every single joke and light moment that was actually in the movie) and to try to distance themselves from the complaints of Dawn of Justice. They already had their movie shot, and are now trying to change the fundamental mood of the movie because they are scared.

 

[Cicada 5]

Well I saw little kids crying when they left the theater after seeing BvS, so I guess Warner achieved their objective as well by your logic.

As for other superheroes to like, people seem pretty excited for Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman and the tv shows have gotten fans to embrace characters like Blue Beetle, Green Arrow, Flash, Supergirl, Static, etc.

Well kids don't tend to deal too well with seeing people die, regardless of who it is. Also, what kind of dumbass parents let their little kids watch this violent angry movie.
And I was talking about people with just exposure to the movies. So they've seen Wonder Woman for about five minutes, and Suicide Squad is currently in reshoots because the people in charge don't have confidence in their product, so I think that's definitely a wait and see. Yes DC has done well with their tv shows for the most part, but many skew quite a bit younger, and even then, the best of the bunch was the Batman animated series IMO.

I don't see how the reshoots are a sign of worry. Reshoots happen all the damn time, especially with blockbusters. And I even heard it was due to scheduling conflicts with the actor who plays Killer Croc.

No, pickup shoots are something that happen all the time, which means they missed getting certain shots during original filming. What Suicide Squad is doing is reshooting scenes to make them more "fun" and to match the tone of the trailer (which apparently showed every single joke and light moment that was actually in the movie) and to try to distance themselves from the complaints of Dawn of Justice. They already had their movie shot, and are now trying to change the fundamental mood of the movie because they are scared.

We don't actually know why the reshoots are happening. The news sources clearly state the "fun" thing is a rumor.

 

[Kyman102]

We don't actually know why the reshoots are happening. The news sources clearly state the "fun" thing is a rumor.

The timing is hella suspect. It's like how people got suspicious that DC announced Batman v Superman getting an R-rated DVD/Blu-Ray release, but only AFTER Deadpool made all the money as an R-rated superhero movie.

BvS comes out, the "It's really a bleak and unpleasant mess of a movie" reviews start coming in, and then suddenly DC announces "Er, BTW, we're sending Suicide Squad back for reshoots. No reason, none at all!"