Freedom vs. Security (Which is more important)?

[101194]

No Shit Question, Freedom, To have Freedom IS the Best Security you can have. Fear makes people scared, Never give up your freedom Americans NEVER!!!

 

[Wyatt]

ill take freedom first, then ill make my OWN security.

in my opinion one of the worst events that can fall on a nation is too suddenly wake up one day and relize you have lost both your freedom AND your security. security is a fantasy anyhow, as long as people are willing too die themselves to kill you they usualy cant be stoped, so why give up our freedom in persuit of something we will never have anyhow?

one thing i think Bush got right, by accident of course, is to remind a whole generation that the world , despite our standord or living here in America, isnt a safe place and wont ever be. my grandparents generation had pearl harbor to remind them of that, we have had 9/11, in a few more generations when everyone is just rrolling along thinking everything is just hunky-dory and we are 'too big to be hurt' it will be something else to bring us back to reality. we as a nation allways seem to over react to threats too our 'security' and we allways seem too revert back to the belief that freedom is more importiant.

and really all you need too do is to look at Europe as it is now too relize what the persuit of security over freedom will do to once mighty nations. the last thing i want America to end up as is a scared old man setting on its porch watching someone else run the world and hiding in my closet because Russia gives me a mean look, or some arabs get pissed off over a cartoon like the Euros do now.

 

[Labyrinth]

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, ? That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

 

[Silver]

Give me Liberty or give me death.

-Patric Henry

It's a very powerful quote. Could you tell me what it means? Could you tell me what liberty really is, especially liberty with a capital L?

ill take freedom first, then ill make my OWN security.

in my opinion one of the worst events that can fall on a nation is too suddenly wake up one day and relize you have lost both your freedom AND your security. security is a fantasy anyhow, as long as people are willing too die themselves to kill you they usualy cant be stoped, so why give up our freedom in persuit of something we will never have anyhow?

one thing i think Bush got right, by accident of course, is to remind a whole generation that the world , despite our standord or living here in America, isnt a safe place and wont ever be. my grandparents generation had pearl harbor to remind them of that, we have had 9/11, in a few more generations when everyone is just rrolling along thinking everything is just hunky-dory and we are 'too big to be hurt' it will be something else to bring us back to reality. we as a nation allways seem to over react to threats too our 'security' and we allways seem too revert back to the belief that freedom is more importiant.

and really all you need too do is to look at Europe as it is now too relize what the persuit of security over freedom will do to once mighty nations. the last thing i want America to end up as is a scared old man setting on its porch watching someone else run the world and hiding in my closet because Russia gives me a mean look, or some arabs get pissed off over a cartoon like the Euros do now.

You are saying then that the European nations have given up their freedoms in pursuit of security? You are saying that because they avoid war, or conflict?

Does this mean that freedom is being the biggest, most oppressive of the bunch, and kick at everything that looks at you funny? To fight and glare and *****? Is it freedom to insult other's culture?

I'm curious if you have anything to back this up with, and what in that case. I'm also curious if you could explain this great American freedom, and if it is more than the freedom to oppress minorities and other countries.

 

[photog212]

There is absolutely no reason why one cannot have both. We are just told this is impossible by those who wish to remove one or the other. I personally believe that if you ask the question: Freedom or (insert anything here) the answer must always be freedom. Bu do not forget that we, no matter our country of origin are born free, and it cannot be taken away from us unless we no longer want it.

 

[photog212]

Give me Liberty or give me death.

-Patric Henry

It's a very powerful quote. Could you tell me what it means? Could you tell me what liberty really is, especially liberty with a capital L?

It means that Henry would rather die than continue to live under British rule. It was used as a call to arms to persuade the colonies to fight to the death. However, Liberty with a capital L refers to Henry's mistress. (He was an odd fellow who loved his mistresses)

 

[VoleurdeThym]

By giving up your freedom, you're in constant danger of giving up who you are.
So what if I die in a bomb blast? I'll be happy and satisfied with my life to that point, and I really doubt the Patriot Act or any similar things have saved my life thus far.

 

[Combined]

Both of them are equally important. You can have freedom while maintaining security. Without security, you may one day not have freedom. Without freedom, security is useless.

 

[God's Clown]

Well, like it's been said already, it's about balance. We shouldn't have to chose. We should have all our freedom's, as well as being able to feel secure. I believe carlos mencia said something along the lines of: Sure, you destroyed two of our buildings, we bombed the shit out of your country.

That's not to say I believe eye for an eye, or eye for your whole body is the right way to go, but these guys need to pick targets better. Dumb terrorists.

 

[MercenaryCanary]

It's ironic that the government seems hellbent on stopping the terrorists without realizing that they can't stop the terror. Fear can be produced by everyone, governments included, and the US government has done nothing BUT fearmonger by bringing up the "terrorist threat". The more people fear the terrorist, the more the terrorists win. And causing governments to deny their citizens their basic rights is definitely a "win" for the terrorists.

We can't even rebuild the Twin Towers! We usually recover almost instantaneously from attacks on the home-front but this one has taken 8 fucking years just to argue over how to make the new building! Why not just rebuild it exactly as it was?
That sends a better message to the people but until the politicians can figure that out then we have lost the so called "War on Terror" that they stupidly declared.
....
This must have been why the founding fathers set it up for the people to revolt.

 

[TerraMGP]

while it has changed somewhat, I think the founding fathers did a good job of defining the base line of what liberty should be. What they were saying is that you have the right to live in the way of your choosing so long as it does not negatively impact others. Now some clarifications on this definition have been made in the interest of public safety but for the most part it seems to boil down to the simple ability to live how you wish and attempt to be happy so long as it does not take away the ability to do so from others.

 

[iseko]

If you give up your freedom for safety you will find yourself living in a 'big brother' world. Everyone does something illegal, nobody is innocent.

I think freedom is more important than safety if you would make me chose. But in reality it's just a combination of the two. Everyone knows this and if you don't, you are a monkey.

 

[Zac_Dai]

More people die from power tool related accidents every year then from terrorist attacks worldwide.

The last thing that ever crosses my mind is the fear of a terrorist attack and I live in a country with 1.5 million Muslims. Its bullshit fear mongering.

and really all you need too do is to look at Europe as it is now too relize what the persuit of security over freedom will do to once mighty nations. the last thing i want America to end up as is a scared old man setting on its porch watching someone else run the world and hiding in my closet because Russia gives me a mean look, or some arabs get pissed off over a cartoon like the Euros do now.

Yeah after 2000 years of it Europe realized war is about as clever as pissing in the wind and thought maybe a different approach was needed.

In you're estimation of Europe I think you mistake diplomacy for fear and weakness.

 

[Silver]

Give me Liberty or give me death.

-Patric Henry

It's a very powerful quote. Could you tell me what it means? Could you tell me what liberty really is, especially liberty with a capital L?

It means that Henry would rather die than continue to live under British rule. It was used as a call to arms to persuade the colonies to fight to the death. However, Liberty with a capital L refers to Henry's mistress. (He was an odd fellow who loved his mistresses)

Yes, thank you, a very good answer. You did sort of miss my point though. How does it pertain to this day and age, and what is freedom today? How is the quote relevant to the discussion? I didn't know about his mistress though, so thank you for that.

while it has changed somewhat, I think the founding fathers did a good job of defining the base line of what liberty should be. What they were saying is that you have the right to live in the way of your choosing so long as it does not negatively impact others. Now some clarifications on this definition have been made in the interest of public safety but for the most part it seems to boil down to the simple ability to live how you wish and attempt to be happy so long as it does not take away the ability to do so from others.

But is that truly freedom? Sure, you're allowed to do what you want. That's gotta be being free. But what if you can't do it? Are you still free then? Can you claim that you're a free man or woman if you can't act on that freedom?

And while I will admit I agree completely with the definition, except that I'd say as long as it doesn't impact others at all, unless they want it to, I don't agree with the execution of it.

We can't even rebuild the Twin Towers! We usually recover almost instantaneously from attacks on the home-front but this one has taken 8 fucking years just to argue over how to make the new building! Why not just rebuild it exactly as it was?
That sends a better message to the people but until the politicians can figure that out then we have lost the so called "War on Terror" that they stupidly declared.

Even though I don't think it's necessary for me to point this out, it sends several messages. Yes, it sends the message that you're back up on your feet to your enemy. It also sends the message that let's just forget this ever happened, rebuild and never speak of this again to your own people. That's not a very good message.

Then there's the security factor. They did this once, if you built it the same way, what's to stop them from doing it again?

 

[Mr Scott]

Freedom, in all honesty. I'm an Anarchist, but the idea only works if everyone's brain works right.

Nice to finaly see someone who shares my veiws on this. I once talked to someone who thought that that anarchism was satanic(he confused the "A" symbole with a pentagram for some reason).

anarchists aren't satanic they just fail to see the flaws in anarchism. For example, who maintains the infrastructure without government? How do we pay for services without government back money? Go back to the barter system? We left the barter system in the dust because it didn't work very well, not because the government was evil.

The flaws in Anarchy are the people who don't understand the idea and just think it's a government in which they do whatever they please without repercussion. The greatest enemy of Anarchy is apathy, the reason most governments have parties and different branches is that society at large are too fucking lazy to ACTUALLY do anything about the government as a society.

 

[Nurb]

People and politicians who are really just wanting more power tell you to ask yourself what liberties do you want to give up to feel safe.

I would ask what are YOU prepared to do to keep those liberties? People don't think they have to do anything to keep something so important as a free democracy, well if you want a free society, you have to realize that it makes an easy target for your unethical enemies. You might die, and people have seemed to forget that you need to fight once in a while to restablish that no matter what the situation, we need to hang on to the fundamentals of our free society.

I'm prepared to die to keep the constitution, bill of rights, and all those sweet liberties we take for granted intact, and won't give any of them up to the government. proper red-tape free intelligence is key to maintaining security in an open society however.

Oh, and anarchists are delusional if they think their system would work. In theory, anything can work; monarchy, communism, anarchy, etc... the problem is that people are unruley, greedy, power-hungry, assholes that cannot be trusted. Anarchy would devolve into warring city-states putting us back into the time of ancient greece, and there wouldn't be anyone making new games or gaming systems for your playstation and xbox... scared yet?

Despite some problems, the best system we have so far is a free, equal democratic society that elects leaders from among the populace with checks and balances to prevent branches of government from having too much power.

 

[kdragon1010]

Well with the election of our most recent president if your idea of freedom includes being able to easily purchase a gun so that you can better defend your own security its going to be taken away.

Oh can anyone tell me where this passage is from?

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of themself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assailant, "If I Live, I will kill you, If I Die, You are forgiven." Such is the Rule of Honor"

 

[Wyatt]

You are saying then that the European nations have given up their freedoms in pursuit of security? You are saying that because they avoid war, or conflict?

Does this mean that freedom is being the biggest, most oppressive of the bunch, and kick at everything that looks at you funny? To fight and glare and *****? Is it freedom to insult other's culture?

I'm curious if you have anything to back this up with, and what in that case. I'm also curious if you could explain this great American freedom, and if it is more than the freedom to oppress minorities and other countries.

i said just what i wrote, dont put words into my mouth. the problems with society's more worried about their 'security' than anything else are obvious by simply looking at what Europe has become in the last 60 and especialy the last 20 or so years. obsession with their 'security' has pretty clearly taken the form of cowering in their little nations clinging to past glorys and being content to be laughed at and scorned by the rest of the world as long as they are 'safe'. except Britian of course, shes still a high class old ***** when she needs to be.

diplomacy is meaningless without the will and the means to take action when its called for. the Euros sure are good at the talking part, but when its time to start the action who has time to go looking for them under their beds or in their closets?

they seem to have forgeten that in the real world the first step in being secure is in being willing to defend yourself with force, not just talking about it, but DOING it. corse with Americas millitary unbrella over them since WWII and after its to be expected i guess, if someone else will do your fighting and dieing for you it leaves you much time to set on the park bench talking about the 'good old days' and enjoying the sun shine while you flap your gums to anyone who is willing to listen about how YOU would do it, allways assuming you could actualy muster the effort to do ANYTHING but talk that is.

 

[WickedSkin]

The patriot act needs to be destroyed and forgotten. Why aren't people trying to overthrow the government? THEY ARE ALREADY FEELING TO SAFE! They have to much faith in the government. While they slowly take our freedom away.

 

[kdragon1010]

Honestly I do everything now that I did before the patriot act without fear. On the same hand I do think the Patriot Act is wrong, and should be repealed.