Full body scans and pat downs: Do they cross the line?
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I think it is to far to be honest. I know terrorism is a threat but driving a car is a threat and you are more likely to die in a car crash then on a plane that blows up. I think some security measures are necessary but then there is just overkill.
We have the Full body scanners in the UK now. They are phasing them in along the metal scanners. The guards choose people from the line at random. Its great isn't it all our civil liberties are being washed away under the notion of 'safety', I think I prefer the much more dangerous world where at least my privacy wasn't invaded. I don't get the if you have nothing to hide argument either. The point is I have not done anything so why should I be treated like a criminal, what ever happened to innocent untill proven guilty?
We have the Full body scanners in the UK now. They are phasing them in along the metal scanners. The guards choose people from the line at random. Its great isn't it all our civil liberties are being washed away under the notion of 'safety', I think I prefer the much more dangerous world where at least my privacy wasn't invaded. I don't get the if you have nothing to hide argument either. The point is I have not done anything so why should I be treated like a criminal, what ever happened to innocent untill proven guilty?
The key to successful terrorism is not to kill - but to force your victims to live in constant fear (or terror, if you will) and change their way of life as a result of it.
Given that neither backscatter machines nor pat down would find...for example... women with implanted explosives, or someone with half a pound of C4 up their bum (or a squad of 5 or 6 people all under the liquid limit who combine together to make a device), they really are all about theatre and the illusion of safety (and in the case of the machines, someone making buck).
Throw away the machines, stop the pat downs, bring in the sniffer dogs. Guns/ammo will be found by metal detectors and no one cares about knives any more as the pilots cabins are always locked (the TSA would have confiscated the boxcutters on 9/11 but let the terrorists aboard anyway).
Given that neither backscatter machines nor pat down would find...for example... women with implanted explosives, or someone with half a pound of C4 up their bum (or a squad of 5 or 6 people all under the liquid limit who combine together to make a device), they really are all about theatre and the illusion of safety (and in the case of the machines, someone making buck).
Throw away the machines, stop the pat downs, bring in the sniffer dogs. Guns/ammo will be found by metal detectors and no one cares about knives any more as the pilots cabins are always locked (the TSA would have confiscated the boxcutters on 9/11 but let the terrorists aboard anyway).
I'm curious as to the number of people who are all up in arms against the searchers/scans have actually been through the process.
As a person who travels back and forth from Europe to the US several times a year, and has actually gone through a body scan, wanded, and I've undergone a full patdown, I'm just baffled as to how people are so insanely offended by it.
The scan was like 7 seconds at the most. I've never been "cupped" or "groped", they ask you to spread your legs and they quickly give a small palm strike across the inside of the leg and around, across the arms, etc. I've never had them use any type of hand action that included any use of their hand in a closed fashion. And every other guy doing the pat down either looks miserable that this is his job or looks completely indifferent.
As with everything, there is always going to be people who take offense to something and blow it out of proportion. Honestly, if millions of people go through these security measures every day you'd think there would be a huge public outcry by a significant portion of these fliers if there was truly devious with the procedure. Honestly if something this small is impacting your decision to travel then that is something you have to deal with. Because, honestly, what is more likely, that every security guard out there is a complete pervert that wants to cop a feel of the same sex and gets off on watching ugly blobs on the full body scan or that you're the one that is blowing it out of proportion?
As a person who travels back and forth from Europe to the US several times a year, and has actually gone through a body scan, wanded, and I've undergone a full patdown, I'm just baffled as to how people are so insanely offended by it.
The scan was like 7 seconds at the most. I've never been "cupped" or "groped", they ask you to spread your legs and they quickly give a small palm strike across the inside of the leg and around, across the arms, etc. I've never had them use any type of hand action that included any use of their hand in a closed fashion. And every other guy doing the pat down either looks miserable that this is his job or looks completely indifferent.
As with everything, there is always going to be people who take offense to something and blow it out of proportion. Honestly, if millions of people go through these security measures every day you'd think there would be a huge public outcry by a significant portion of these fliers if there was truly devious with the procedure. Honestly if something this small is impacting your decision to travel then that is something you have to deal with. Because, honestly, what is more likely, that every security guard out there is a complete pervert that wants to cop a feel of the same sex and gets off on watching ugly blobs on the full body scan or that you're the one that is blowing it out of proportion?
Only the CDC report works, but thanks for sharing! I knew this stuff was useless, but I had no idea it was actually dangerous to the people operating it.Svoboda4zizn said:
Anyway, I think I can make my position a bit clearer: You see, I have an amazing belt. I wear it every day, because it protects me from tiger attacks. No, I am serious. Since I have started wearing it, not a single tiger has attacked me. Some may say this belt is uncomfortable, or ugly, but I say we must force everybody to wear it! What's worse, sacrificing your dignity, or getting attacked by tigers? Obviously the benefits outweigh the risks, so you had better start wearing this marvelous thing!
[sup][sup]Disclaimer: only valid under certain conditions. Sowing raw steaks to your clothes, smothering yourself in BBQ sauce and running through the tiger cage at your local zoo is still a really fucking stupid idea.[/sup][/sup]
The only time I've ever been searched thoroughly was right before Halloween this year. I flew from Los Angeles up to San Francisco, and was bringing my 360 in a backpack. I figured that having a backpack full of electronics and plastic might raise a couple red flags at the TSA checkpoint, so I wasn't too worried. They just took me aside, talked to me to make sure I was cool, scanned my bag for (I assume) explosives residue or whatever, and gave me a pat-down and metal detector wand waving.
It wasn't by any means invasive, and they were nice enough about it, so it wasn't an issue at all.
However, I will say that they are terrible liars. I know why you're searching me, you know why you're searching me, so don't give me some BS about being "randomly" selected. Especially when I can hear your colleague whisper to you about there being "something in the bag that's giving off a charge, like a laptop." Come on.
Also, the amount that they've stepped up security in US airports is ridiculous. There's no reason that terrorists (or anyone wanting to kill people) need to blow up planes. Like someone said earlier, it would be incredibly easier to buy a cheap ticket, get your bomb or whatever, and just go to town on the terminal of the airport (If anyone from the FBI reads this, I have no recollection of saying anything on the subject).
EDIT:
It seems that some people don't really get what pat-downs are. The workers use the backs [BACKS] of their hands to check you. Turn your hands over, and lightly slide them across your desk. It's like that. And it takes about 45 seconds to a minute when done properly.
It wasn't by any means invasive, and they were nice enough about it, so it wasn't an issue at all.
However, I will say that they are terrible liars. I know why you're searching me, you know why you're searching me, so don't give me some BS about being "randomly" selected. Especially when I can hear your colleague whisper to you about there being "something in the bag that's giving off a charge, like a laptop." Come on.
Also, the amount that they've stepped up security in US airports is ridiculous. There's no reason that terrorists (or anyone wanting to kill people) need to blow up planes. Like someone said earlier, it would be incredibly easier to buy a cheap ticket, get your bomb or whatever, and just go to town on the terminal of the airport (If anyone from the FBI reads this, I have no recollection of saying anything on the subject).
EDIT:
It seems that some people don't really get what pat-downs are. The workers use the backs [BACKS] of their hands to check you. Turn your hands over, and lightly slide them across your desk. It's like that. And it takes about 45 seconds to a minute when done properly.
Actually, not true. They must have your consent to search you. If you don't consent, they just won't let you fly. It's not like you have the right to fly on their planes.McNinja said:
First, edit your posts. or at least proofread a little.capin Rob said:
Second, not only have most normal people not had a pat down (because most of us aren't criminals or suspected of being such), but it's an invasion of privacy I don't give a DAMN how you justify that, some is still touching you without your consent, and most normal people don't like that. I don't care if it's 1 second, it's too damn long. And for people who really don't like being touched by anyone(like my mom, who will freak out if anyone tries to touch her), it's their worst nightmare.
To quote Benjamin Franklin:
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
I honestly cannot believe how many people are like "yeah it's cool, I don't mind people looking through my clothes, possibly getting irradiated, and also possibly being touched and groped my some TSA person I don't know." I mean, seriously? They have metal detectors for a reason. How about instead of insane measures like pat-downs and full body scans, they have... metal detectors and bomb sniffing dogs?
Oh wait. They did.
And how about like, Air Marshals? You know, people who are basically the police on planes? Where in the hell did they go? You know what? they could put cameras in the seating areas of planes and it would work just fine.
People over-react to things, and then the measures they put in place are just way too much. It's like congress attempting to fix the financial mess that the US is in. Short-term stuff isn't the way to go. You need long term solutions. None of this "ooh get better now, who cares if it jacks this country up beyond repair." The same goes for the TSA and Airport security. What if the terrorists had taken hostages and blown up a train? Would the train security be as tight and over the top as Airport security? Also, what happens years down the line if ther's no terrorist attacks anymore? Will they just take out those measures? Or will congress say "there might be more! You never know when they might strike!" And if one does finally strike, what happens then? MORE insane security? Are we just gonna have to go through the airport naked and have our ass (and other places, if you're a female) probed for bombs and chemicals? Where does it end?
I don't like it but I can understand it.
Also I like the contrast between the Americans and the British.
The Americans are getting paranoid, which is understandable, and us Brits just joke about it.
Also I like the contrast between the Americans and the British.
The Americans are getting paranoid, which is understandable, and us Brits just joke about it.
How about putting passenger into a coma, and then placing them in a Faraday cage for the duration of the flight. Nobody can move, nobody can act, nobody can contact them, nobody can do anything. There, now we're all safe. Ah...safety, isn't it a nice thought?McNinja said:
I'm glad you mentioned them. Really, what the hell happened to Air Marshals? I'm pretty sure one or two armed, and professionally trained undercover cops per flight would constitute more security than all of the groping and full body scanners in the world combined. But then again, that would make sense, and we all know how much regard for common sense the TSA has...
Actually, if you're on a plane that blows up I think it's pretty certain that you're not going to make it.Jamieson 90 said:
And yes, I know that your point is that flying is safer than driving. Just saying
On topic, it turns out those pictures that are supposed to be deleted right away aren't deleted right away. One Hundred Naked Citizens: One Hundred Leaked Body Scans [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/11/giz-scans/]
This is why I don't want the goverment or any other agency to have lots of information on me or members of my family. I mean the goverments record on keeping private information private is absolutely disgusting.DiMono said:Actually, if you're on a plane that blows up I think it's pretty certain that you're not going to make it.Jamieson 90 said:
And yes, I know that your point is that flying is safer than driving. Just saying
On topic, it turns out those pictures that are supposed to be deleted right away aren't deleted right away. One Hundred Naked Citizens: One Hundred Leaked Body Scans [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/11/giz-scans/]
The annoying thing is that alot of so called private information is kept on databases, just look at HMRC they can't even get peoples tax codes right and we are supposed to trust them with more sensistive information.
I haven't ever been through airport security or in an airport at all so I'm not entirely sure what it's like to be molested for security reasons. But I don't see the problem myself, if you've got nothing you're not allowed, what is there to be worried about?
Then again, having a big guy sticking his hand where the sun don't shine doesn't exactly encourage me to see what it's like on a plane.
Then again, having a big guy sticking his hand where the sun don't shine doesn't exactly encourage me to see what it's like on a plane.
How are those in any way the same thing? This is people complaining because an outline of their genitals will be shown. *shock horror*tanis1lionheart said:
The things you brought up are utterly different, and intrude on personal lives, regardless of what we want to do.
If you don't want to use the scanners, you can simply not fly, whereas cameras and chips would be there where you like it or not.
The mod removed it, but there was a link to his own website in that post. He was advertising.Hardcore_gamer said:
Okay sir, two can play at that game. You forgot to capitalize the m in "my". Also, you forgot to capitalize your "i" at the end, and your last sentence has no punctuation. See me after class.Svoboda4zizn said:my post at the top of the page and my post on page three contain information that renders your position moot. The documents linked expose major questions about the safety of the scanners, and they are quite credible sources(CDC and UCSF).ElTigreSantiago said:
Also attempts occur regularly plotted by both domestic and foreign terrorists, most are foiled by a three letter agency that isn't the TSA.
*you misspelled inconvenience i fixed it
See how much fun that is? My point is, if we had the security we had today in... say September of 2001, then a lot of people would still be alive right now. So I say people should deal with it or, if it's that big of a problem, do something about it. I find complaining to be troublesome.
Something I've always wondered.brainless_fps_player said:
Let's say the TSA finds a bomb on someone. Is that person gonna say "Oh shucks, you guys got me!" No, they're going to detonate the bomb, turning the TSA agent and nearby pedestrians into paste.
And why would they even submit to searching? If I was a terrorist, and someone even suggested searching me, I'd pull the trigger then.
Although the more thorough pat downs seem a little unnecessary, the full body scans I have no problem with. I have nothing to hide, so in the end why should I be worried about such a thing?