Game of Thrones: About Tyrion's Trial (potential spoilers)

[Quezary]

I was thinking after the most recent Game of thrones episode - it was clear that Tyrion is going to be found guilty anyway according to Tywin's plan. He driven Jaime into making the deal he was planning to make all along, which in turn would make Tyrion to plead for mercy (as it was Jaime who was asking Tyrion to do that).

In my opinion the single thing that driven Tyrion over the edge and ruined the Tywin's plan 'to send Tyrion to the Wall/make Jaime produce Lanister kids to continue the family line' was the Shae's testimony at the court. I can't possibly believe that Tywin was not aware of the list of witnesses and of the effect Shae's appearance and words might have on Tyrion.

So the question is - why did he allowed her to be at the court? Just to humiliate Tyrion even more? Why did he not consider the possibility that her appearance might enrage Tyrion and drive him to demand the trial by combat thus ruining the initial plan?

 

[Nielas]

Shae's testimony is the only direct evidence against Tyrion. Everything else is just circumstantial and could leave doubt in people's minds. Shae's testimony is supposed to kill any sympathy that people might have for Tyrion and make it impossible for Oberyn to vote "not guilty".

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I was thinking after the most recent Game of thrones episode - it was clear that Tyrion is going to be found guilty anyway according to Tywin's plan. He driven Jaime into making the deal he was planning to make all along, which in turn would make Tyrion to plead for mercy (as it was Jaime who was asking Tyrion to do that).

In my opinion the single thing that driven Tyrion over the edge and ruined the Tywin's plan 'to send Tyrion to the Wall/make Jaime produce Lanister kids to continue the family line' was the Shae's testimony at the court. I can't possibly believe that Tywin was not aware of the list of witnesses and of the effect Shae's appearance and words might have on Tyrion.

So the question is - why did he allowed her to be at the court? Just to humiliate Tyrion even more? Why did he not consider the possibility that her appearance might enrage Tyrion and drive him to demand the trial by combat thus ruining the initial plan?

1. There was never really a "plan" to send Tyrion to the wall, that's something that was specifically introduced for the show.

2. Shae's testimony is allowed because it is extraordinarily damning.

I'm not sure anyone was remotely concerned with whether or not Tyrion felt humiliated or not. Tywin has been ritually humiliating all his children for years, Tyrion most especially.

 

[Quezary]

True, but why the role of 'the whore which knew everything' needed to be played by Shae herself? The same words (or the close variant of them) could be spoken by another servant-girl/whore. Very few people present in the courtroom are aware of exactly which servant is serving whom. In my opinion it is not the words that hurt Tyrion, it is the person who speaks them. If he was sure that Shae is safe far away, he would be more agreable to plead for mercy and be sent to the wall. They could've just used a random servant girl who 'overheard' Tyrion speaking with Sansa to 'plan the crime'.

I just think that using Shae herself as the witness 'who knew everything' to prove that Tyrion is guilty - was a very, very risky move on Tywin's part. And it is a bit hard for me to understand how such a calculative man could not have foreseen the possible negative outcome 'for the family' from using Shae here.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I just think that using Shae herself as the witness 'who knew everything' to prove that Tyrion is guilty - was a very, very risky move on Tywin's part. And it is a bit hard for me to understand how such a calculative man could not have foreseen the possible negative outcome 'for the family' from using Shae here.

Again, there was zero risk to anyone from using Shae as a witness. There was a veritable parade of damning testimony against Tyrion, most of it things he said or did taken out of context. Shae's testimony was just the icing on the cake.

The whole "Jaime leaves the Kingsguard as long as Tyrion goes free" plot device was written in for the show. And like most of the things written in for the show, they don't consider the ramifications of their changes.

 

[Sabitsuki]

Why would Tywin know the effect that Shae's testimony would have on Tyrion? As far as anyone besides Bronn and Varys would know is that Shae was a whore that Tyrion kept hidden and to himself. Especially since Tywin still thinks Tyrion is a drunk and a lech, he would have no reason to suspect that they have a genuine relationship prior to Tyrion spiriting her away. He might have suspected that Tyrion was particularly fond of her, but he has never been given any cause to believe it was anything more sincere.
As far as he would know she was just a whore being posed as a handmaiden that was closely associated with Sansa and Tyrion. This put her in an exceptionally good place to serve as the final piece of evidence to damn Tyrion beyond any shadow of doubt. Comparatively, just any random servant who 'just so happened' to overhear an incredibly damning piece of evidence would be highly suspicious in its convenience.

You may also want to consider changing the thread title so as to not spread potential spoilers.

 

[Quezary]

Changed the title to avoid possible spoilers for those who have not seen the episode yet.

I see your points, maybe Tywin indeed have not considered that Shae's testimony might have such an effect on Tyrion.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

It's a character flaw for Tywin in the books and probably in the show: as smart as Tywin is, and as calculatingly cold he is, Tywin doesn't see people as, well, people. To him, they are chess pieces that he moves around and manipulates to his whim. In other words, he has issues judging emotional reactions. He saw Shae's testimony as a way to cement the case against Tyrion. He didn't foresee how he would react to the testimony, because Tywin was and is always confident that everyone will react as perfectly logically as he foresees, not taking emotions into account.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's a character flaw for Tywin in the books and probably in the show: as smart as Tywin is, and as calculatingly cold he is, Tywin doesn't see people as, well, people. To him, they are chess pieces that he moves around and manipulates to his whim. In other words, he has issues judging emotional reactions. He saw Shae's testimony as a way to cement the case against Tyrion. He didn't foresee how he would react to the testimony, because Tywin was and is always confident that everyone will react as perfectly logically as he foresees, not taking emotions into account.

An interesting take on Tywin from The Meereneese Blot...

Spoiler: Spoilers through Book 5

Conclusion: The Truth About Tywin

Since Tyrion's embrace of Tywin seems pivotal for the future of the series, it's worth clarifying one point about who Tywin Lannister truly is. Tywin presents the image that he uses brutal methods purely because of his pragmatism, but there are reasons to doubt this. Here he presents the murder of Rhaegar?s children as necessary:

"Far be it from me to question your cunning, Father, but in your place I do believe I'd have let Robert Baratheon bloody his own hands."

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert?s cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever." (ASOS TYRION VI)

And he passes off the rape and murder of Elia Martell as a regrettable bit of excess that he had nothing to do with:

His father shrugged. "I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."

"Then why did the Mountain kill her?"

"Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark's van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do." He closed a fist. "Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape ...even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope."

Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys..." ... His mouth twisted in distaste. "The blood was in him."

But not in you, Father. There is no blood in Tywin Lannister. (ASOS TYRION VI)

This is the image Tywin seeks to project - hard as stone, pragmatic, ruthless, and not driven by any base desires like bloodlust. But late in ASOS, Martin decides to undercut Tywin's self-made myth. With the late revelation of Shae in Tywin's bed, we learn that Tywin absolutely is driven by lust. (It is a ludicrous and hypocritical risk for Tywin to sleep with Shae, who is now known by the entire court as the Imp's Whore. If such a salacious tale got out, it would immediately ruin the image Tywin has spent decades constructing for himself.) His public image of complete self-discipline was, simply, bullshit, as symbolically emphasized twice by Martin:

"But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold." (ASOS TYRION XI)

The Lord of Casterly Rock made such an impressive figure that it was a shock when his destrier dropped a load of dung right at the base of the throne. (ACOK SANSA VIII)

Oberyn suggests that Tywin's claim to have had no part in Elia's fate is bullshit as well:

"I told you of the welcome we found at Casterly Rock. What I did not tell you was that my mother waited as long as was decent, and then broached your father about our purpose. Years later, on her deathbed, she told me that Lord Tywin had refused us brusquely. His daughter was meant for Prince Rhaegar, he informed her. And when she asked for Jaime, to espouse Elia, he offered her you instead."

"Which offer she took for an outrage."

"It was. Even you can see that, surely?"

"Oh, surely." It all goes back and back, Tyrion thought, to our mothers and fathers and theirs before them. We are puppets dancing on the strings of those who came before us, and one day our own children will take up our strings and dance on in our steads. "Well, Prince Rhaegar married Elia of Dorne, not Cersei Lannister of Casterly Rock. So it would seem your mother won that tilt."

"She thought so," Prince Oberyn agreed, "but your father is not a man to forget such slights. He taught that lesson to Lord and Lady Tarbeck once, and to the Reynes of Castamere. And at King?s Landing, he taught it to my sister." (ASOS TYRION X)

Oberyn believes Tywin deliberately ordered the rape and murder of Elia out of vengeance because she, not Cersei, won Rhaegar's hand. The dramatic placement of this revelation, late in ASOS, leads me to believe he is absolutely right, and that Tywin was lying through his teeth to Tyrion when he denied any part in it. "The blood was in" Tywin Lannister, very much so. And this desire for vengeance drove him past pragmatism ? and toward needless cruelty and brutality.

 

[Zhukov]

Peter Dinklage does a really good scary face.

Shae's character continues to be screwed up by the TV show.

Jaime's offer serves no purpose. I fail to see why a show that is already struggling to cram the books into its limited screen time continues to waste that screen time on go-nowhere scenes.

 

[LostCrusader]

True, but why the role of 'the whore which knew everything' needed to be played by Shae herself? The same words (or the close variant of them) could be spoken by another servant-girl/whore. Very few people present in the courtroom are aware of exactly which servant is serving whom. In my opinion it is not the words that hurt Tyrion, it is the person who speaks them. If he was sure that Shae is safe far away, he would be more agreable to plead for mercy and be sent to the wall. They could've just used a random servant girl who 'overheard' Tyrion speaking with Sansa to 'plan the crime'.

I just think that using Shae herself as the witness 'who knew everything' to prove that Tyrion is guilty - was a very, very risky move on Tywin's part. And it is a bit hard for me to understand how such a calculative man could not have foreseen the possible negative outcome 'for the family' from using Shae here.

I don't think Tywin was directly picking the witnesses against Tyrion, the case against him and all the witnesses were being picked and directed by Cersei. And as some others have said, no one other than Bronn and Varys would know how much they cared about each other.

 

[Loonyyy]

Spoiler

I just think that using Shae herself as the witness 'who knew everything' to prove that Tyrion is guilty - was a very, very risky move on Tywin's part. And it is a bit hard for me to understand how such a calculative man could not have foreseen the possible negative outcome 'for the family' from using Shae here.

Again, there was zero risk to anyone from using Shae as a witness. There was a veritable parade of damning testimony against Tyrion, most of it things he said or did taken out of context. Shae's testimony was just the icing on the cake.

The whole "Jaime leaves the Kingsguard as long as Tyrion goes free" plot device was written in for the show. And like most of the things written in for the show, they don't consider the ramifications of their changes.

I'm not sure that the ramifications will matter if they stay true to the source material for the result of the trial.

Spoiler

Although I'll be disappointed when that happens, because Oberyn's prescense in the show has been very entertaining, it's a shame he has such a short span of story

I'm curious as to your take on their handling of Shae in the last episode, compared to the book, considering your take on their handling of Shae in the past.

I'm not much of a fan of how they transitioned Shae, a lot of it seems to be that they've taken Tyrion as a hero by default since he's fan favourite, so of course he's heroic (Not sure how the questionable scenes in ADWD will turn out), and they turned their relationship into a passionate affair, and Shae into a whore with a heart of gold/badass knife wielder/loyal friend to Sansa/whatever they think they need at the time rather than a consistent character.

I remember you saying that you were hoping they wouldn't have Tyrion's sending away of Shae being a replacement for Tysha ("Where do whores go?" and all that), which I actually was kind of hoping for, since I was thinking it would be a best case scenario-they simplify things for the show watchers, which at least keeps me from having to explain everything, and they can at least make a break from the course they were headed since

Spoiler

It seemed to me that show-Shae wouldn't betray Tyrion, and the "woman-scorned" angle just seems ridiculous. She's trying to have him killed because he tried to save her, yes, he hurt her, but that was because show-Shae has all the thinking power of Gregor Clegane's broadsword, and the sense of the horse he rode against Loras Tyrell (Seriously, how often does he have to spell things out to her, while she pouts and gets snooty about Sansa, the Manse, or any of a number of things.) I really can't see show-Shae sleeping with Tywin, nor show-Tyrion strangling Shae (I suppose it'd be a stabbing in this version)

But now they've decided that she's going to testify against him (Which is just silly, because if she actually loves him, as the show-version seems to, she'd have to realise she's trying to kill him), and it seems they're going to keep going with the cannon version. I'm just hoping that they finish of her part of the story as soon as possible, with as little nuisance as possible.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'm curious as to your take on their handling of Shae in the last episode, compared to the book, considering your take on their handling of Shae in the past.

I'm glad they're getting back on book with her, but I spend quite a bit of time on "Unsullied" forums reading reactions of non-book readers, and they're all confused and/or irritated by her inconsistent characterization. Which is entirely the fault of the show-runners. I'll move this to spoilers for show watchers...

Spoiler

If they'd just kept her the same bratty social climber she was in the books, everything would've been fine. My guess is they wanted her eventual betrayal to seem less obvious to watchers, and for them to share Tyrion's sense of betrayal, by making Shae seem sympathetic right up to the point she eventually wasn't. If that was the hope, it backfired. Watchers seemed annoyed by her bizarre inconsistencies and inability to read the peril of her situation.

This is a common theme when the showrunners re-write characters...they no longer fit properly in the narrative, and TV watchers start bitching about inconsistent writing and plot holes. It was the case with Talissa (a 21st century anachronism wandering through a 14th century world), and continues to be the case with "Yara", Stannis and Shae. I know there's a certain amount of defensiveness towards too much "It's better in the books!" griping, but my GOD they make stupid fucking choices when it comes to deviations sometimes. The Unsullied UNIVERSALLY praise the direct-from-books material and almost universally complain about the show-unique stuff. The book readers whine constantly about changes. Who is this extra material even for?

Anyway, based on his fury in episode 6, I now think Tyrion does kill Shae, and I think it's very likely we get the "She was Tywin's spy all along" edit in order to rationalize his decision. I'm not sure we ever get a Tyrion as dark as we do in ADWD, but hopefully we can get away from the relentless whitewashing he's gotten in the show.

 

[suitepee7]

1. There was never really a "plan" to send Tyrion to the wall, that's something that was specifically introduced for the show.

by plan, i assume you mean 'thought out plan between tywin and jaime'? because in the books IIRC there is definitely talks of letting tyrion take the black instead, perhaps in a conversation with varys? i can't quite recall, but there is definitely a mention of it

edit: actually, it may have been with kevan lannister, a rather important character who has been sidelined in the show >_>

 

[BloatedGuppy]

by plan, i assume you mean 'thought out plan between tywin and jaime'? because in the books IIRC there is definitely talks of letting tyrion take the black instead, perhaps in a conversation with varys? i can't quite recall, but there is definitely a mention of it

Spoiler: Major Spoilers for the end of Book 3

It's possible Kevan mentions it, but if memory serves it's something Tywin brings up when he has a crossbow pointed at his groin. Rather than sounding like a genuine plan, it comes off a lot more like Tywin talking fast in an attempt to get Tyrion to drop his guard.

 

[rcs619]

I was thinking after the most recent Game of thrones episode - it was clear that Tyrion is going to be found guilty anyway according to Tywin's plan. He driven Jaime into making the deal he was planning to make all along, which in turn would make Tyrion to plead for mercy (as it was Jaime who was asking Tyrion to do that).

In my opinion the single thing that driven Tyrion over the edge and ruined the Tywin's plan 'to send Tyrion to the Wall/make Jaime produce Lanister kids to continue the family line' was the Shae's testimony at the court. I can't possibly believe that Tywin was not aware of the list of witnesses and of the effect Shae's appearance and words might have on Tyrion.

So the question is - why did he allowed her to be at the court? Just to humiliate Tyrion even more? Why did he not consider the possibility that her appearance might enrage Tyrion and drive him to demand the trial by combat thus ruining the initial plan?

Keep in mind, Tywin is just a judge. He's there to render punishment and make sure that the trial flows smoothly. Cersei is the one who is claiming to be the victim here, she's the one who has accused him and brought him to trial, so I imagine she is the one picking the prosecution's witnesses. Tywin and the other judges are, on paper, supposed to be neutral parties. That's why Tywin wouldn't talk to her about the trial beforehand.

My impression (from the expression on his face) is that Tywin is just as upset about the way things turned out as Tyrion. He had a good deal, he was *finally* going to get Jaime back to Casterley Rock and *finally* pumping out legitimate children. In the process he would not only get to spare his other son's life, but also exile him to the wall where he will be stripped of his titles and forever out of the family's hair. It's literally a win-win for Tywin, given the way he feels about family and lineage. Then Shae came along and torpedoed that entire plan all to hell. For Tywin's part, it wasn't like he knew about Tyrion and Shae's relationship and how deep it went. She was just a whore he kept around, like all the other whores.

The real question is, why did Shae go along with this? What does (presumably) Cersei have on her that's bad enough to make her go and spout off all those lies. Is it just the threat of her own death (that never seemed to bother her when Tyrion kept trying to warn her about the dangers), or is it something more? For all we know, Cersei could have used Joffery's old trick (telling Shae she would be merciful if she helped her convict him), or maybe it is something worse. That's going to be the interesting bit, and not something that is completely comparable to the book, since Shae (like a lot of secondary characters) wasn't nearly as interesting in the books.

 

[suitepee7]

by plan, i assume you mean 'thought out plan between tywin and jaime'? because in the books IIRC there is definitely talks of letting tyrion take the black instead, perhaps in a conversation with varys? i can't quite recall, but there is definitely a mention of it

Spoiler: Major Spoilers for the end of Book 3

It's possible Kevan mentions it, but if memory serves it's something Tywin brings up when he has a crossbow pointed at his groin. Rather than sounding like a genuine plan, it comes off a lot more like Tywin talking fast in an attempt to get Tyrion to drop his guard.

Spoiler

hmm, you might be right. i just remember tyrion mentioning how it would only be a matter of time before he gets killed up there instead, and implied he would rather take his other chances elsewhere rather than the wall. i think he mentions that he got on with Jon though too

now i have to read the books again... goddamnit

 

[K12]

I think it makes sense to believe that Tywin would massively underestimate the effect of Shae's testimony on Tyrion.

As far as he is concerned she's his whore, he may not have realised how deep the bond between them was. If he had a chance to speak to her before her testimony he would probably have accepted Shae's belief that Tyrion had grown bored with her now that he had a hot young wife.

I think you also have to consider that Tywin is basically a high-functioning psychopath. He doesn't seem to have any deep emotional connections to anything about from the significance of his family name. He might not fully understand the Tyrion's difficulty to keep composured when given an emotional gut-punch like that. Remember that the last time something like this happened was with Tysha and Tyrion basically just took it, even going so far as to join in with his own humiliation.

As for why she was called as a witness (if it was Tywin's decision rather than Cersei's), her evidence was the most damning and he may also want to drive home the message that Tyrion didn't learn from Tysha, "No one will ever love you and you can never trust whores!"

 

[Loonyyy]

I'm glad they're getting back on book with her, but I spend quite a bit of time on "Unsullied" forums reading reactions of non-book readers, and they're all confused and/or irritated by her inconsistent characterization. Which is entirely the fault of the show-runners.

I'll move this to spoilers for show watchers...

Spoiler

If they'd just kept her the same bratty social climber she was in the books, everything would've been fine.
Definitely. The transition from whore, to love interest was pointless, and doesn't add anything to the story.
My guess is they wanted her eventual betrayal to seem less obvious to watchers, and for them to share Tyrion's sense of betrayal, by making Shae seem sympathetic right up to the point she eventually wasn't. If that was the hope, it backfired. Watchers seemed annoyed by her bizarre inconsistencies and inability to read the peril of her situation.

In the end I think she just seems stupid in the show. Unable to grasp that everyone wants to kill her as an embarrassment and to humiliate Tyrion, and unable to understand that Tyrion does not want to fuck Sansa. And, it's incredibly annoying that they continually brought that up, because her character from the books, whore/social climber, wouldn't have to worry about that conflict. What does she care if Tyrion fucks Sansa? A lot has been said about Shae's casting, and while I'm not sure about the casting, she's been given nothing to work with. Who is Shae in the show?

This is a common theme when the showrunners re-write characters...they no longer fit properly in the narrative, and TV watchers start bitching about inconsistent writing and plot holes. It was the case with Talissa (a 21st century anachronism wandering through a 14th century world),

Oh god, her bits about war and death and suffering and peacenik spiel got old so quickly. It's not that I disagree with these notions, it's just that they make no sense in the contenxt, and why would Robb Stark like her if she spends her time calling him a butcher.

and continues to be the case with "Yara",

Don't get me started on the stupidity of the Ironborn landing in the last episode. That's going to really fuck things up later on. How Reek is meant to deceive the Ironborn now that Yara's given up on him? And now what's going to happen with her capture? And what's going to happen with the Ironborn electing a new ruler? The timelines are all happening at vastly different rates than the books it seems, even with the confusion I'm experiencing from the parallel nature of ADWD and AFFC. And they've fucked Ramsay Snow up so badly this season. I don't know what the fuck they were doing there. It's interesting the effort they're going to with the Iron Bank, but I'm not sure what purpose that serves. Probably none.

Stannis and Shae. I know there's a certain amount of defensiveness towards too much "It's better in the books!" griping, but my GOD they make stupid fucking choices when it comes to deviations sometimes.

I've actually generally preferred the show, I'm not much a fan of Martin's prose, particularly some of his Dany chapters are just creepy, and his Bran chapters just bore me. But the things they've done this season have been particularly grating, to the point where I wasn't sure I wanted to watch any more of it. Not because I wasn't interested like ADWD turned me off for a while, or because I just didn't care any more like the Walking Dead, but because it was just disgusting. Did we need that stupid bit at Crasters keep? That ridiculous knife fight between Jon and Burn Gorman, complete with taunts about fighting with honor, and talking up some backalley cutthroat to be some great fighter. Goddamn it Jon, you've got a Bastard Sword made of Valyrian Steel, and he's got two fucking knives. CUT HIM IN HALF YOU'VE GOT ALL THE FUCKING REACH. Did they fire all of their choreographers that day? And what purpose does showing the stuff at Crasters serve, apart from to make us realise how incompetent Jon is. They killed 8 drunk men without a watch, and lost 4 (1 was a traitor). THEY RAN INTO THE CAMP SCREAMING. THEY DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO STAB ONE OF THEM QUIETLY, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD A SNEAKY STABBY TYPE. And the constant rape scenes and violence against disempowered women, who aren't even side characters(Except in Cersei's case, and that was horrible too. But almost all of how they've written Cersei is terrible. I love Lena Headey, but show-Cersei is just not working). THEY'RE EXTRAS. APPARENTLY RAPE IS SCENERY. Must derage. The pacing and minor changes to the storyline across the seas aren't any improvement either (Although I do like Jorah's remaining with Danaerys, if only because he's well cast, and Dany's council has a decent chemistry, and I'm much more a fan of new Daario. They're going to have to get rid of him though for his story to happen, and they're sure to do that wrong as well.).

The Unsullied UNIVERSALLY praise the direct-from-books material and almost universally complain about the show-unique stuff. The book readers whine constantly about changes. Who is this extra material even for?

Yeah, I'm really not sure what the changes are meant to do. A lot of them aren't even simplifying anymore, they're making things complicated where they didn't need to be for no reason.

Anyway, based on his fury in episode 6, I now think Tyrion does kill Shae, and I think it's very likely we get the "She was Tywin's spy all along" edit in order to rationalize his decision.

That's actually quite an interesting theory. It'd almost work, and make a decent amount of sense. Which means the writers would never go for it.

I'm not sure we ever get a Tyrion as dark as we do in ADWD, but hopefully we can get away from the relentless whitewashing he's gotten in the show.

I'm not sure I want that specifically dark Tyrion from the book, but I'd like to see him being vicious in a way that is hard for people to deal with. At least for them to show some complexity. They've made it too easy for fans to root for him, he's just Ned Stark's Paladin hero but with a drinking problem. If he could actually participate against the Starks, or against Dany, or another fan favourite, something at least so we get to feel what it's like to be on the recieving end of his wrath (Davos almost counts, but they did him a disservice by not letting him grieve his son to bring it home. Then again, I'm not sure that everyone loves Davos as much as I do.)

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Spoiler

In the end I think she just seems stupid in the show. Unable to grasp that everyone wants to kill her as an embarrassment and to humiliate Tyrion, and unable to understand that Tyrion does not want to fuck Sansa. And, it's incredibly annoying that they continually brought that up, because her character from the books, whore/social climber, wouldn't have to worry about that conflict. What does she care if Tyrion fucks Sansa? A lot has been said about Shae's casting, and while I'm not sure about the casting, she's been given nothing to work with. Who is Shae in the show?

The casting wasn't good. She's not a particularly strong actress, and I find her a bit too old/poised for the part regardless. Bit late to close that particular barn door, though.

I still think at the end of the day they felt Book Shae's eventual betrayal would've been way too telegraphed. And perhaps they're right. But their efforts to work around it came off as incredibly clumsy and ill conceived.

Oh god, her bits about war and death and suffering and peacenik spiel got old so quickly. It's not that I disagree with these notions, it's just that they make no sense in the contenxt, and why would Robb Stark like her if she spends her time calling him a butcher.

Not to mention, what commoner talks to a Lord they've never met that way in Westeros? What if that was Tywin Lannister? Or Roose Bolton? Or a Frey? Or a Clegane? Or any of a number of prickly Lords with more pride than compassion? Her forthright attitude and DIY personality were just wildly out of place. I get that they wanted a "strong female character" there, but it makes the struggles Brienne and Cersei and Arya and other female characters endure for daring to step outside the boundaries set for their gender seem pointless. She's just sassy and outspoken and independent no one seems to bat an eye or notice anything is amiss.


Don't get me started on the stupidity of the Ironborn landing in the last episode. That's going to really fuck things up later on. How Reek is meant to deceive the Ironborn now that Yara's given up on him? And now what's going to happen with her capture? And what's going to happen with the Ironborn electing a new ruler? The timelines are all happening at vastly different rates than the books it seems, even with the confusion I'm experiencing from the parallel nature of ADWD and AFFC. And they've fucked Ramsay Snow up so badly this season. I don't know what the fuck they were doing there. It's interesting the effort they're going to with the Iron Bank, but I'm not sure what purpose that serves. Probably none.

Some book reader described the storyline at Craster's Keep as "empty calories"...a way to keep certain characters employed while keeping the tires spinning on their story so they're not out of time line too much. Asha's (fuck this Yara nonsense) fruitless rescue attempt strikes me as more empty calories. I was so worried she'd get captured and turned into the new Jeyne Poole (Asha is my GF's favorite character, she'd have flipped the TV over), so I was too relieved she didn't to hate the scene as much as it deserved. It was really poorly choreographed. He's not even wearing a shirt! Just hit him!

I think Ramsay is going...okay. I'm not in love with Rheon's portrayal of him, but the general concept of Theon's dehumanization is coming across.

I've actually generally preferred the show, I'm not much a fan of Martin's prose, particularly some of his Dany chapters are just creepy, and his Bran chapters just bore me. But the things they've done this season have been particularly grating, to the point where I wasn't sure I wanted to watch any more of it. Not because I wasn't interested like ADWD turned me off for a while, or because I just didn't care any more like the Walking Dead, but because it was just disgusting. Did we need that stupid bit at Crasters keep? That ridiculous knife fight between Jon and Burn Gorman, complete with taunts about fighting with honor, and talking up some backalley cutthroat to be some great fighter. Goddamn it Jon, you've got a Bastard Sword made of Valyrian Steel, and he's got two fucking knives. CUT HIM IN HALF YOU'VE GOT ALL THE FUCKING REACH. Did they fire all of their choreographers that day? And what purpose does showing the stuff at Crasters serve, apart from to make us realise how incompetent Jon is. They killed 8 drunk men without a watch, and lost 4 (1 was a traitor). THEY RAN INTO THE CAMP SCREAMING. THEY DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO STAB ONE OF THEM QUIETLY, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD A SNEAKY STABBY TYPE. And the constant rape scenes and violence against disempowered women, who aren't even side characters(Except in Cersei's case, and that was horrible too. But almost all of how they've written Cersei is terrible. I love Lena Headey, but show-Cersei is just not working). THEY'RE EXTRAS. APPARENTLY RAPE IS SCENERY. Must derage. The pacing and minor changes to the storyline across the seas aren't any improvement either (Although I do like Jorah's remaining with Danaerys, if only because he's well cast, and Dany's council has a decent chemistry, and I'm much more a fan of new Daario. They're going to have to get rid of him though for his story to happen, and they're sure to do that wrong as well.).

Martin is a pervy old coot, but he's also an award winning/bestselling author for a reason. The bits of dialogue taken verbatim from the books are easily the best in the show. Characters like Vargo Hoat were highly memorable...characters like "Locke" were forgettable and ultimately pointless. If you're going to deviate from strong source material, have a PLAN.

And yes, I agree with the rest of this. The fight choreography has been generally poor throughout the series, making me worry about episode 8, and the abundance of off-book rapes have been...concerning. I still expect Jorah banished, btw. And I also like NuDaario. But then, I always liked Daario in the books, and what his presence said about Dany's character.

I'm not sure I want that specifically dark Tyrion from the book, but I'd like to see him being vicious in a way that is hard for people to deal with. At least for them to show some complexity. They've made it too easy for fans to root for him, he's just Ned Stark's Paladin hero but with a drinking problem. If he could actually participate against the Starks, or against Dany, or another fan favourite, something at least so we get to feel what it's like to be on the recieving end of his wrath (Davos almost counts, but they did him a disservice by not letting him grieve his son to bring it home. Then again, I'm not sure that everyone loves Davos as much as I do.)

I like Davos, and I've really enjoyed Liam's performance on the show. He's one of the most spot on casting decisions they've made. But yes...Tyrion has been terribly whitewashed, and it's made his character less textured and interesting. He's a borderline antihero in the books.