Game of Thrones Season 6 general discussion.
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Nothing major, just a bunch of little things and nitpicks that kept annoying me.Samtemdo8 said:
The way they dealt with the Lord of Bones was completely arbitrary and superfluous - including him at all was a bit baffling.
The fog of Zombie-ness somehow not being able to climb over the fence(???) - plus the fact the fog can do that baffles me. When you introduce God mode stuff like that it raises questions on why they don't just use it all the time.
That woman who freezes in horror at the sight of dead children and just lets them do their thing.
Jon Snow's plot armour being the thickest it's possibly ever been (sans Season 6 of course).
The fog of Zombie-ness somehow not being able to climb over the fence(???) - plus the fact the fog can do that baffles me. When you introduce God mode stuff like that it raises questions on why they don't just use it all the time.
That woman who freezes in horror at the sight of dead children and just lets them do their thing.
Jon Snow's plot armour being the thickest it's possibly ever been (sans Season 6 of course).
But that's about it. It's an exciting battle and like most of the White Walker/Wight stuff in the series it's really tense (again, besides the bits with Jon).
Cersei's trial won't be as extensive or as long, so there probably won't be as much to complain about unless they really manage to mess things up.
Spoiler Regarding what I think will happen to Cersei:
I truly honestly think Cersei will go completely insane after her Champion loses her Trial By Combat, and then will end up becoming the Caeser that burns Alexandria in the form of King's Landing with the secret caches of Wildfire buired underneath the city secretly placed there on orders of the Mad King, I feel this is what is going to happen to Cersei in the end...and so far she maybe the best example of a female antagonist I have ever seen in fiction
Baelish is most definitively not an antihero, he's pretty far into the villain spectrum.evilthecat said:
He's a murderous piece of shit angry at the world because his childhood crush never reciprocated his affection. His whole delusion about the world being unfair towards him is equally rubbish, he was born out of a noble family, that alone makes him privileged as hell, with a father who was friends with Lord Tully, which resulted in him being the ward of one of the greatest families in Westeros (privilege again), and he finally got the job of Master of Coin because he was banging the Hand's wife, not because he was the most qualified for the role. (Again, privilege/nepotism)
His whole shtick is that he's an angry spurned little shit who is willing to destroy everything around him because Catelyn rejected him, he's only as much of an antihero as Elliot Rodgers was an antihero.
If you want an antihero, look at Jaime, the Hound, Tyrion, Theon, Arya, or Daenerys. There nil heroic about Littlefinger.
Season 6 leak spoilers:Samtemdo8 said:
Pretty sure there won't be a trial by combat, Cersei likely ignites the city after Tommen kills himself by throwing himself out of a window. The leaker did not confirm whether Cersei dies there, but she likely gets strangled by Jaime to fulfill the valonquar prophecy, and as a callback to the Mad King.
I honestly prefer the show version of the character to the book's, with a few exceptions. I think having Joffrey be the one to call the murder of Robert's bastards was a terrible idea. It removes agency from Cersei and makes her less ruthless, while getting rid of the modicum of innocence left in Joffrey.
I love the show exclusive scene of Robert and Cersei talking about their marriage too.
The Sopranos had a brilliant ending. After the initial furor passed, it's generally been regarded as one of the better endings in TV history.Samtemdo8 said:
GoT should be lucky to end so well. With these nincompoops writing it, we can rest fairly assured it won't.
But my point still stands. I feel there is no way to end this series satisfactory, its gonna be extremely controversial like Mass Effect 3 imo.BloatedGuppy said:
Oh I do wish I read the books. Its one of the fantasy books I like to read so badly.Sonmi said:
Along side the Witcher Books, Wacraft books, and Early Dragon Age books (Books that were written and made prior to Dragon Age 2)
It's very difficult to end anything in a way which is satisfactory to everyone, but I see no reason ASOIAF cannot wrap things up in a generally pleasing way. ME3's problem wasn't "controversy", it was that the original ending was pat, stupid, logically incoherent, and mechanically shoddy. It was a perfect storm of issues, some of them objective. If it had just been "controversial" it wouldn't have turned into ground zero. However, this is not the ME3 thread, and no one wants it to turn into one.Samtemdo8 said:
If GoT ends up having a bad ending, it won't have anything to do with narrative collapse or incoherency. It'll be a simple case of lousy writing by the showrunners. The novels, I'm quite sure, will be fine.
I think it's worth pointing out that, dialogue and what-have-you aside, the ending itself will be GRRM's. The events, who lives and dies and ends up where is from the books. Obviously things won't be identical, but the high notes will be.BloatedGuppy said:
Speaking of the books, I actually feel a little sorry for the readers, and GRRM himself (not for the money I'm sure he's made of course!). Starting with Shireen's and Stanis's fates last season and moving onto Sansa, Jon, Bran and Arya's this season, not to mention Hodor and the Hound, many massive cliffhangers, theories and speculated events have "spoiled" the forthcoming book 6. While the book is still a literary experience and obviously there are differences, these large events can't be surprising any more. I'm not a reader of the books, but I've trawled many forum threads/wikis/sites reading all these theories and what not. But anyway, the show must go on.
Most of the major events were already well speculated about by fans, and those that were not are likely show inventions. "Hold the Door" is the only one fans hadn't guessed at, and we still don't know the actual context for that. Martin can at least have the satisfaction of knowing he laid the ground work/had enough hints and foreshadowing in place to allow attentive readers to puzzle it out ahead of time. There weren't any out of left field shocks.KingsGambit said:
At least we can take comfort in the fact that some plotlines will be left mostly unspoiled. There are too many characters/plot elements missing for the Ironborn plot from the show to reflect that from the books for instance, and there is absolutely no way that the Dornish storyline ends with the murder of House Martell by the Sand Snakes.KingsGambit said:
Now I just want my Warcraft Arthas movie to happen and China is the only country to give Legendary the money to green light a sequal.Sonmi said:
Here's hoping. It would make even less sense in the books, and the show didn't make a bit of sense at all. (If it does I'm going to rethink my position on book burning) Truth be told, I feel like the majority of the "twists" where something the show made up. Like the death of Barristan Selmey. If he dies in the books it'll actually be a surprise due to different circumstances.Sonmi said:
The only thing that I honestly feel was spoiled was Hodor's death. That...that was GRRM's twisted brilliance to the core. I hope Summer gets a better death in the books IF he dies. Killed in three seconds by wights...at least Grey Wind got to bring a Frey down with him.
Book or TV?Sonmi said:
Well, sure.. but let's go through the other "antiheroes".Sonmi said:
Jaime is a murderous piece of shit angry at the world because he did a bad thing for good reasons and now everyone hates him, plus he's so dissociative that he literally doesn't care any more.
The hound is a murderous piece of shit angry at the world because his brother is a bigger and even more murderous piece of shit who burned his face for no reason.
Tyrion is a murderous, sexually aggressive piece of shit angry at the world because his daddy was mean to him.
Theon is a murderous, entitled piece of shit angry at the world because he's torn between two cultures and doesn't belong in either.. then he gets broken.
Arya is a murderous piece of shit so caught up in her nihilistic quest for revenge that for a while she was generally willing, nay determined, to sacrifice every fragment of who she was to a death cult because they'd train her to be better at murdering people.
Petyr Baelish is only the second landed generation of his family, and the third who can arguably be called "noble". His family estate (which he and Sansa visit in the books) consists of a few acres of rocky coastline. His father made friends with Hoster Tully by chance, which let him be fostered at Riverun, which was as you point out an unimaginably high honour for someone who is basically the lowest of the low nobility.Sonmi said:
Finally, he absolutely does believe that his childhood crush reciprocated his affection. He is wrong, but it is an honest mistake..
To say that Petyr is "privileged" for being a member of the nobility is like saying Jon is "privileged" for being a bastard. In a sense it's true. Jon even contemplates it when he arrives at the nights watch and realises how different his upbringing has been from the other recruits, but everything depends on perspective. Both Jon and Petyr were raised and have primarily lived in noble circles, and in those circles they are worth nothing.
Edgy analogy aside. Think about it.Sonmi said:
The young hero from a poor family falls in love with a woman of higher birth. She returns his affections (again, he thinks) but is engaged to marry someone else. Believing in the power of true love, the hero challenges the betrothed of his lover to a duel..
..do you see where this is supposed to go? The hero is, of course, supposed to rise to the occasion and achieve some kind of stunning underdog victory, thus proving that love is stronger than social convention. Heck, this is pretty much the generic "courtly love" narrative. Except, in this case, it doesn't happen..
I would actually take that bet..Sonmi said:
Of course, there are more Martells in the books, so killing them all may be a bit much, but Doran strikes me as quite thematically consistent.
Book, TV show also applies though.evilthecat said:
Jaime was a disillusioned teenager in an unhealthy relationship with his sister who was thrust into a situation that he simply couldn't come out of as a good guy. Currently trying to atone.evilthecat said:
The Hound was a murderous piece of shit angry at the world, yes. Currently atoning by taking a vow of silence and serving the Elder Brother.
Tyrion in fact is an angry, raping piece of shit, he does have good sides as well though, tried to be a good person for the longest time, only recently truly snapped and went "Fuck everything and everyone" and only of getting a train of misery run on him.
Theon was a child trying to find a way to belong wherever he could find it only to be rejected by both worlds he thought he could be part of. The Ironborn see him as weak and foreign, and the Northerners reject him and plot against him as Prince of Winterfell. Currently atoning, and responsible for what is probably the bravest act in the series with his rescue of Jeyne. (He's also no more entitled than Jon is, and has genuine grievances with the world)
Arya is a broken child looking to get revenge on genuinely bad people, but got lost in her desire for revenge, murdering the arguably innocent Dareon in privileged rage. We see good sides to her, she wants to help the helpless several times in her journey for altruistic reasons.
All of them have good sides, and most of them are trying to atone. The same thing cannot be said of Littlefinger, whose only point of sympathy is his backstory, and even then, not that much.
"Worth nothing" is a bit much, but yes, he comes from a relatively weak noble family, as you yourself point out, that makes him extremely privileged compared to 99% of the Westerosi.evilthecat said:
I do understand how he can see himself being a victim, as I can understand Rodgers's frustrations, it doesn't absolve him of being a complete monster of a human being, someone who would sell a child to sexual slavery, murder the woman who always loved him, and set up the bloodiest war the continent has seen in centuries so that he could get back at the girl he loved, and possibly gain a bit of power on the side.evilthecat said:
By threatening to shoot babies out of catapults?Sonmi said:
Okay. I think we have an issue here.Sonmi said:
I don't think atoning means anything. Darth Vader isn't an antihero because he atones at the end. It's a character arc, sure, but merely having a character arc does not imply someone is a hero or antihero. If anything, "atonement" is more a property of villains. An antihero is a person who has a heroic narrative but lacks heroic attributes. They are a literary subversion of what heroic characters "should" be like.
In this sense, the difference between an antihero and a villain is going to be narrative role. I think there's room for manouever on whether or not you see littlefinger as possessing a heroic narrative, but I think in order to include some of these other characters you kind of have to say that he does. He's a horrible character fighting against (but also very much part of) a system which is horrible and unfair. The heroism, in this case, is the capacity to stand against that system in spite of having to live within it.
Pre-Ramsey Theon was deliberately written, I think, to be the most revolting character possible. He's a smirking goon utterly convinced of his own importance and who constantly abuses his power over everyone around him. Also, massive misogynist, which is an easy way to make a character incredibly hateable.Sonmi said:
So what?Sonmi said:
Part of a class system is that you can't choose your social circle. If you're a noble, you don't hang out with 99% of Westerosi, you can't hang out with them even if you wanted to because they will never accept you as a peer. Your peers are other nobles.
Again. Heroic narrative. Non-heroic characteristics.evilthecat said:
Steerpike in the Ghormenghast trilogy is an antihero. He lies, manipulates and ultimately kills his way up the hierarchy without a trace of remorse or conscience (indeed, one of the first things we are told about him is that he utterly lacks a conscience) but by doing so he drives forward the plot in the way a standard hero would. We don't need to morally sympathize with him as a person to be invested in the struggle.
Is littlefinger a bad person? Sure. Would a world in which littlefinger actually got his wish and acquired the power he craves be a bad world, or a worse world than the one which already exists? Not really. Honestly, the biggest monster so far both in terms of raw body count and potential to seriously wreck the world is probably Dany. Her morality has thus far proven far more destructive than littlefinger's amorality.