Game of Thrones - The Jon Snow theory (possible spoiler warning)

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thejboy88

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Like with any fandom, the story of Game of Thrones (and by extension the entire Ice and Fire series) has generated a lot of speculation by the fans. But, recently, I've come across a particular theory that seems to have gained quite a bit of support amongst the fanbase; the true parentage of Jon Snow.

Now, as this is all speculation at this point, I'm not sure if a spoiler warning is needed, but I'm putting one up anyway, just in case.

So then, the official story of the show and books is this; about twenty years before the story began, there was a rebellion in the land of Westeros, wherein the ruling family, the Targaryens, tried to fight off the uprising of Robert Baratheon, who later won and became king. The cause of this rebellion? His betrothed, Lyanna Stark, was apparently kidnapped by the heir to the throne, Rheagar Targaryen. Robert was joined in his efforts by Lord Eddard Stark, Lyanna's brother, who, like Robert, wanted to free her from Rheagar.

Long story short, the rebels won and the Targaryens were defeated, including Rheagar, who died in battle with Robert. However, despite this, both Eddard and Robert were too late to save Lyanna, who was on her deathbed by the time they finally arrived. With the Targaryens vanquished, Robert became king and Eddard returned home. However, Eddard went home with a newborn baby boy, who was apparently the result of him having spent a night with another woman during the rebellion. This apparent illegitimate son was named Jon Snow and was raised by Eddard for many years until the real story began.

However, some fans have theorised that this was actually all just a cover story. That Lyanna was never kidnapped by Rheagar and that the two, in fact, simply ran away together. On top of that, the theory also states that Jon Snow is neither illegitimate, nor the son of Eddard, but rather the child of Lyranna and Rheagar, with his birth being what killed the former. If so, Jon is actually the heir to the throne, rather than Eddard's illegitimate son, and that the whole "Lyanna having died from Rheagar" story was just a cover that Eddard created to hide Jon's identity from those with anti-Targaryen feelings, like Robert

There's a lot of small points that fans like to bring up to support their idea, but I won;t be mentioning them here. I just wanted to give the outlines of the theory and say that, while I certainly see how such a theory might come about, I've never been entirely sure whether it's one worth believing.

So, I'd like all of you to give me your thoughts on the matter. Do you follow this theory yourself? Do you disagree with it? Or do you perhaps have some opinion of it that lies in-between?
 

TheRightToArmBears

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The theory makes a lot of sense, but I'm not sure GRRM would make it so simple for us. Given that ASOIAF is all about subverting fantasy tropes, adding 'bastard son revealed to be dead hero's kid' to his Hero's Journey arc seems a bit obvious. Hell, even Eragon basically had this.

I agree that a lot of the evidence points that way and I don't think for a second Jon is Ned's bastard, but it's pushing him a bit far into Marty Stu [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu] territory. Let's make a list:
-Believed to be a bastard
-Forgoes personal gain for honour
-Magic weapon
-Exotic animal sidekick
-One of about six characters in the series to identify the true enemy (one of those being Mance Rayder and another being Aemon Targaryen, both of whom are dead now, and another being Brynden Rivers who's cheating anyway)
-Swift rise to power
-Tragically slain love
-Cowardly/bookish friend
-Dead mentor

Jon Snow doesn't really fit with the rest of the story, I think there's a big surprise waiting for us. I'm going with incestuous offspring of Ned and Lyanna Stark, just to fuck with everyone.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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I doubt it. He can't be an hair to any throne whatsoever because he's in Night's Watch and there's already an heir to the Targaryen throne so there would be no point in making him secretly a Targaryen. I'm more inclined to believe that his real father is Stannis.
 

Ugicywapih

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Targaryens tend to have very specific features - white hair, purple eyes... At the very least I wouldn't expect a heir of theirs to be black-haired, which, according to a major plot point from not long before Ned's death is an indicator he might be a Baratheon - possibly Robert or Stannis' kid.
 

Hades

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I think we can discount Stannis as the possible father. Stannis was stuck in a siege for a whole year so he just wouldn't have a chance to father a child with Lyanna.

The rebellion lasted for more then a year...I think so Robert wouldn't get the chance either.

I'm not completely won over by the theory that John is a Targyrian but I can see it work within the setting.
 

happyninja42

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Yeah, this theory has been around for a while, and it has some significance to it. One reason I think it might have traction is, according to GRRM, when asked by the two producers of Game of Thrones if they could get the rights to his property, he asked them one question. "Who is Jon Snow's father?" And apparently, their answer to that question satisfied GRRM that they "knew their stuff enough to do the show right." I'm paraphrasing there, but that was the gist of what he said.

So obviously, the question of Jon Snow's parentage is significant, and probably not as clear cut as one would suspect.

Also, the red headed crazy lady is very interested in Jon Snow, and wants to fuck him, and we all know why she likes people of royal bloodline. So it would seem to suggest that his lineage is royal, otherwise she wouldn't be so interested in getting in his pants. And I doubt his lineage through the Stark family would be enough, but who knows.

Personally I think this theory is probably right, as it would make sense, for Eddard and Rheagar to try and protect the child from those who would kill him simply because he was a Taggaeryan. I mean he was blood kin to them in a way, and the Starks are very loyal to family.
 

TheRightToArmBears

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MC1980 said:
TheRightToArmBears said:
I agree that a lot of the evidence points that way and I don't think for a second Jon is Ned's bastard, but it's pushing him a bit far into Marty Stu [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu] territory. Let's make a list:
-Believed to be a bastard
-Forgoes personal gain for honour
-Magic weapon
-Exotic animal sidekick
-One of about six characters in the series to identify the true enemy (one of those being Mance Rayder and another being Aemon Targaryen, both of whom are dead now, and another being Brynden Rivers who doesn't really count)
-Swift rise to power
-Tragically slain love
-Cowardly/bookish friend
-Dead mentor
Oh you left one out there, bud.
Do not read unless you read Book 5 until the end.
-Get's betrayed and stabbed to death
He gets his turn when it comes to having the shit kicked out of him, don't you worry.
He may or may not be dead, all we know is that he's been stabbed. Personally I think surprise stabbing is a bit of a cop-out death, but it would make the situation with the wildlings and the Night's Watch interesting (read: fucked).

To speculate, I think he'll be killed. Melisandre is still at the Wall (which increases her powers too) and could revive him Thoros & Beric style, but as he technically died he's released of his vows to the Watch, allowing him to claim Winterfell.

Oh, and I've had a think and I reckon that Robert Baratheon is Jon's father. For starters, Jon apparently looks most like Arya, who in turn looks like a young Lyanna. Except he has black hair- a dominant Baratheon feature that GRRM made incredibly important in disproving Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella's legitimacy. It would also mean that if Jon and Danaerys marry (implied in Dany's dreams), the rightful heirs of both sides of Robert's Rebellion would unite, putting an end to the whole chapter.

Not sure why Ned wouldn't just give him to Robert though, unless Lyanna promised him not to for some unknown reason. Anyway, GRRM confirmed that we'd meet Howland Reed at some point, and he has the answers.
 

FalloutJack

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My brother brought this up. I immediately shot it down with him not being immune to burns. You're not Targeryan enough if you're not bloody fireproof. Even if John Snow were, what proof then? Without resisting flames, there's nothing. He doesn't look it and he knows nothing.
 

happyninja42

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FalloutJack said:
My brother brought this up. I immediately shot it down with him not being immune to burns. You're not Targeryan enough if you're not bloody fireproof. Even if John Snow were, what proof then? Without resisting flames, there's nothing. He doesn't look it and he knows nothing.
1. He's only half Targeryan, so his fire-proofness could be only a partial thing.

2. His looks could be explained by the fact that the Barathean dark hair always shows dominant. They make a point in season 1 to talk about how the "jet black hair" of the Barathean line always breeds true, which is why Stark knew Cercie's kids weren't with the king. Jon Snow's got really black hair.

3. When did he get burned by anything? I don't recall a scene where he was exposed to fire and was burned. I could be forgetting something sure, but I don't recall it coming up. Also, see point 1 as to why he still might burn.
 

Erttheking

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FalloutJack said:
My brother brought this up. I immediately shot it down with him not being immune to burns. You're not Targeryan enough if you're not bloody fireproof. Even if John Snow were, what proof then? Without resisting flames, there's nothing. He doesn't look it and he knows nothing.
Not necessarily. Viserys was Targeryan and the molten gold Drogo poured on him still killed him, with dany even pointing it out.
 

Glongpre

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Not every Targ is immune to fire. I recall one guy who tried to turn into a dragon through fire, but just died. I am not even sure that it is a Targ trait. I think he just gave it to Danny to make her unique.

And the L+R=J is a very old theory, but it is also very plausible. Probably the most plausible theory anyone has come up with.

And I am pretty sure Jon does not have black hair, and looks nothing like a Baratheon. He was described as looking the most like a Stark, along with Arya.
 

BloatedGuppy

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At this point it's so well established it's not even a theory, just a fact we haven't found out yet.

Read the series again with this thought in mind and you'll see it foreshadowed EVERYWHERE. Most prominently in Ned's flashbacks of the Tower of Joy ("Promise me, Ned") and choice of words ("You have my *blood*") and Rhaegar's allusion to prophecy ("He is the prince who was promised, and his is the Song of Ice and Fire"). Even Melisandre finds herself drawn to Jon, and starts to wonder if it isn't actually Jon who is Azor Ahai reborn.

Then there's other stuff like the Reeds alluding to the story of Rhaegar and Lynna Stark, the fact Rhaegar was known to virtually everyone as a concilitator and gentle spirit, his dubbing her Queen of Love and Beauty at the tournament at Harrenhall, how much is made of his and Arya's resemblance (and her resemblance to Lyanna), the fact Jon Connington was one of Rhaegar's best friends...list goes on and on...

The really contentious theory isn't whether or not Jon is half Targaryen. It's whether or not Tyrion is.

inu-kun said:
That's not a new theory, if anything it's the oldest and so well known it might be more surprising if he's really a bastard.
Jon would still be bastard born, as he was conceived out of wedlock.
 

esserin

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Actually, I think that GRRM said once that dany surviving the pyre unharmed was a one-time thing because of the magic of the event.

Jon having black hair doesn't make him a baratheon bastard. The black hair could have come from the Starks. Nothing special about the Baratheon's hair. It's just genetics. Black hair is dominant which is why it's the most frequent hair color in the real world.
 

Spectrix

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FalloutJack said:
My brother brought this up. I immediately shot it down with him not being immune to burns. You're not Targeryan enough if you're not bloody fireproof. Even if John Snow were, what proof then? Without resisting flames, there's nothing. He doesn't look it and he knows nothing.
Sorry to be the fourth person to correct you but here's a video explaining why Targaryens are not immune to fire with relevant citations.


On R + L = J, it seems likely enough. Lyanna's described as lying in a "bloody bed" or something similar and in the same book, the term is used by [looks up name] Mirri Maz Duur to describe childbirth so it's likely he did find her after she gave birth to someone (Jon?) and possible died from it. She was also guarded by members of the Kingsguard who probably wouldn't be left to guard her unless she was pregnant with a Targaryen child. Assuming those last statements are true, it would make Jon "ice (Stark) and fire (Targaryen)" as in A Song of Ice and Fire.

As for the appearance, have there been any other Stark/Targaryen children? I can't remember any. It might just be that Stark looks dominate Targaryen.
 

smartalec

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TheRightToArmBears said:
The theory makes a lot of sense, but I'm not sure GRRM would make it so simple for us. Given that ASOIAF is all about subverting fantasy tropes, adding 'bastard son revealed to be dead hero's kid' to his Hero's Journey arc seems a bit obvious. Hell, even Eragon basically had this.
Perhaps the subversion is that Jon is indeed the son of royalty, but no-one ever finds out, not even him. Instead he's forgotten by all as he fights a thankless fight in the far north.
 

Terminal Blue

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Ugicywapih said:
Targaryens tend to have very specific features - white hair, purple eyes... At the very least I wouldn't expect a heir of theirs to be black-haired, which, according to a major plot point from not long before Ned's death is an indicator he might be a Baratheon - possibly Robert or Stannis' kid.
According to GRRM, Rhaenys Targaryen (Rhaegar's daughter by Elia Martell) looked typically Dornish (presumably with dark hair and eyes). Her brother Aegon looked more like a Targaryen. It seems to be pretty 50/50 whether the blood of Old Valyria passes on, which is presumably why the Targaryens practiced close-kin marriage to keep it going.

smartalec said:
Perhaps the subversion is that Jon is indeed the son of royalty, but no-one ever finds out, not even him. Instead he's forgotten by all as he fights a thankless fight in the far north.
That's actually what I'm hoping for too. In fact, my hope is that it's never even confirmed and is just left as a frustrating possibility for the fans. Honestly, if anything major ever comes of it I'm going to feel kind of cheated at this point.
 
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thejboy88 said:
So, I'd like all of you to give me your thoughts on the matter. Do you follow this theory yourself? Do you disagree with it? Or do you perhaps have some opinion of it that lies in-between?
It's kind of an old theory, but one that I subscribe to. I think the real deal-clincher for this theory is Jojen's story to Bran, where he tells of a great tourney at the hall of a giant bat, where a dragon prince and she-wolf meet and fall in love, and how a young stag flies into a rage when he finds out as he believes himself the worthiest of all the beasts of the forest. Jojen is very surprised that Bran doesn't know this story, even pointedly asking "Are you sure your Father never told you this story, my Prince?"

Although
all of this is kind of academic since Snow had his throat cut. I've got a theory about that though. Melisandre has been having visions of Jon whenever she asked R'hllor to send her visions of Azor Ahai (as she tries to contact Stannis), and she has always been able to see Stannis' danger in the flames so there's a fair bet on she saw Jon's assassination coming too. I reckon we can expect her to rock up to Castle Black during the Other's assault, spirit off Snow's body and give him the Last Breath, just as Thoros did to Dondarrion.
 

FalloutJack

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Happyninja42 said:
I wasn't sure myself, which is why I asked IF he'd been burned before making that point, because I'd forgotten. Bro said he burned his hand, and he was paying attention, so I take that as a sign there. The theory that he's a Baretheon bastard holds more water than Targeyan by my thinking. Still, the last point I made was that even if it were somehow true, there's no way to actually prove any of it for Snow. He doesn't know hiw mother, he doesn't exhibit any Targeryan trait. He knows nothing and has has nothing.

erttheking said:
I take that as a 'Not Targeryan enough' issue. You may note that Dany is highly-Targeryan, fireproof, and sane. Whereas...the mad king - who was probably lacking genetically - was...well...mad. Viserys was also a bloody maniac, a petulent megalomaniacal man-child. He'd go the same way. I think Robert might've mentioned his failings early on, focusing his concern on Dany.

Spectrix said:
Third.

(And now, we are EVEN!)

I haven't read the books and I haven't gone looking through source material. I'm operating on what I've observed or otherwise been told. The show IS diverging from the books, which may account for the discrepancy. Truth is, though, something I noticed was that the show was making great pains to show how Viserys can't take the heat (hot bath, gold head), but Dany CAN (smoldering dragon egg, huge bonfire). I'm just noting a pattern. If this pattern is only weaved insofar as the show is concerned, so be it, but that's sort of what I'm paying attention to. I'm not entirely sure if the books will be finished anytime soon... Maybe when they're done, I'll read them.