#GamerGate Needs Damage Control Badly (Small OP Update)

[lacktheknack]

That said I am still confused how anyone can control the trolls on the internet?

It's actually very simple. Would you like me to show you?

Fuck them too.

Fuck them with rusty pitchforks.

Fuck them with chainsaws lined with butchers knives.

Let their hearts be rent asunder with the demonic claws of Satan himself as they're dragged shrieking from this mortal coil into the depths of their worst hells.

That goes for anyone and everyone who sends threats to anyone over an opinion piece.

Knack? I'm asking you this as a friend. Presumably a friend.

CALM. DOWN.

I understand you're upset, and that you have very strong feelings about this, and I even understand what those feelings are; however, not only are there a nearly endless amount of better ways to tell them this, but I think I can count the worse ways to tell them this on one hand. Just telling people to go fuck themselves acomplishes very little unless you tell them WHY they can go fuck themselves in the same breath. And while it's frustrating to have to tell someone again and again and again and again and AGAIN WHY they can go fuck themselves, as opposed to just telling them to go fuck themselves, that's what you have to do. If they get you to the point where you've degenerated into unintelligable nonsense-babble, then at best you've lost a great deal of ground, and at worst you have lost period.

I've dealt with rabble-rousers before. You know that, and I know you know that. So understand that I say this from experience; you have to meet them in such a way that they cannot just sweep aside whatever it is you have to say. You have to flood them with evidence, so much evidence that it cannot be ignored. And more than anything else, you have to be respectful to them. Yes, even when they're doing everything they can to bring you down. Even when they don't deserve it. Especially when they don't deserve it. You must be respectful, because a debate isn't just one person talking to another person, it's also both of those people performing for the people passively observing. And the more you can prove that you do have a point, and you are able to make your point without resorting to childish nonsense, and the better you can prove that you have something important to say, the better the odds are that people are going to pay attention to what you are saying.

Again, please, bear in mind; I'm not attacking you, and I'm not even disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that I know you're better than this. The abyss gazes, also, and he who would fight monsters needs make sure he does not become one himself.

...thank you.

I need a break.

 

[m19]

Can't do any damage control anyway when it's this same media who decide what the narrative is. They decide what to focus on and who to put in the spotlight. And they have decided to paint all of us as harassing misogynists even though you could not find 1 in a 1000 that does this at #gamergate.

What's the point when all they do is cherry pick the easiest targets to highlight and then laugh "lulz gamergate"?

 

[small]

what the hell is gamergate? The Zoey thread is too huge for me to jump in. The only part i read was the stickied part which was suppose to give an unbiased viewpoint of what was happening. All i got from that is that Zoe is a real life Katherine Steiner-Davion.

to sum it up.
all the big gaming websites are owned by a single company that contract out to a single PR firm for their public relations, that anita (i cant be bothered looking up her name) is involved in the PR firm and zoe quinn slept with a PR rep from that company to get positive press for her game, etc

once i did my own research into it (people tend to not check sources and just repeat what they are told) i discovered that the gaming sites are owned by different companies, the "pr firm" doesnt actually do PR they are actually a tiny feminist indy game developer who makes experimental games and as such its meaningless to the argument that zoe quinn slept with anyone. as for the anita angle. shes an adviser for the developer.

people seem to of read she slept with a PR rep and ran with it, assuming its a PR firm as far as i can tell

 

[Davroth]

Now, I haven't really picked a side on the whole Gamergate thing, but this, this reeks once again like double standard. So it's okay to dismiss the Gamergate movement outright for their extremists. Okay, fair enough. Movements need to do damage control, right? How else can anyone take them seriously.

Well, why then are feminists not held to the same standard? Have you guys read what some self-proclaimed feminists write on tumblr or say in Youtube videos? Noone calls for damage control their, or dismisses the cause of feminism. On the contrary, most people just wave that part of the movement away and ridicule people for even bringing it up.

So which one is it? You can't have it both ways.

 

[000Ronald]

Feel-good platitudes with no real goal and no real method.

again i ask you what you do to suggest people should do other than condemning others and appealing for moderation within the debate which is what the vast majority of people involved with "gamergate" have been doing.

go on,

tell us how to stop the random assholes of the internet.

Can't do any damage control anyway when it's this same media who decide what the narrative is. They decide what to focus on and who to put in the spotlight. And they have decided to paint all of us as harassing misogynists even though you could not find 1 in a 1000 that does this at #gamergate.

What's the point when all they do is cherry pick the easiest targets to highlight and then laugh "lulz gamergate"?

If I may chime in with my two cents-

Just because something seems insurmountable doesn't mean you don't try. Plenty of things in history have seemed impossible; plenty of people do things that seemed impossible at the time every day. Speaking from my limited experience, nothing that was worth doing was ever easy. Especially the first time.

...and speaking more pragmatically, and as someone who isn't largely invested in the discussion, seeing one side not only level vitriol and abuse at the other, but seeing the other people in that group just ignore that vitriol and abuse makes the entire group seem complacent in the harassment, even if they aren't. The closest comparison I can make is to The Tea Party, here in The U.S.. I'm not a moron; I don't believe that everyone associated with them is a racist or sexist or wants to take The U.S. back to the 1400s. But there are people like that in the group, and by and large, none of them seem to be willing to address that. Similarly, that you and yours seem unwilling to tell these people to stop because they're damaging any goodwill you may have gotten tells me that some of you are willing to tolerate that kind of behavior, even if it isn't necessarily true. And it becomes something of a feedback loop; the less you speak out, the more people like that come over to your side and behave in that fashion, and the more people who genuinely despise that kind of behavior jump ship.

I'm all for integrity in journalism. Not just in gaming journalism, but all journalsm. But you ought to be able to make that point and decry the sexists and the slut-shamers and the "MEN ARE THE ONES WHO REALLY HAVE IT HARD" types at the same time. Does it take more effort? Certainly. But if you're serious about what you're saying, really, genuinely serious, you ought to be able to do it.

And if you can't...maybe you ought to re-evaluate your position.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Now, I haven't really picked a side on the whole Gamergate thing, but this, this reeks once again like double standard. So it's okay to dismiss the Gamergate movement outright for their extremists. Okay, fair enough. Movements need to do damage control, right? How else can anyone take them seriously.

Well, why then are feminists not held to the same standard? Have you guys read what some self-proclaimed feminists write on tumblr or say in Youtube videos? Noone calls for damage control their, or dismisses the cause of feminism. On the contrary, most people just wave that part of the movement away and ridicule people for even bringing it up.

So which one is it? You can't have it both ways.

Are you joking?

That argument is brought up against feminism all of the fucking time.

People are constantly suggesting that feminism has been tarnished by so-called 'feminazis.' Just pick a thread on feminism on these very forums and I guarantee you that you will see feminists on this site having to basically apologise for other people with particularly extreme or disagreeable opinions.

Feminists are not allowed to forget about the controversial elements of the movement and are constantly having to explain it or defend themselves against it. It's brought up as a means to discredit feminist thought as a whole constantly. I've read feminist works from the 1980s defending themselves against the same shit that feminists are still having to defend themselves against today.

It's funny because I know that some of the people defending GamerGate, saying that you can't judge the many by the actions of the few, have engaged in similar criticisms against "SJWs" and feminists. I guess it's only okay when they do it.

 

[Davroth]

Now, I haven't really picked a side on the whole Gamergate thing, but this, this reeks once again like double standard. So it's okay to dismiss the Gamergate movement outright for their extremists. Okay, fair enough. Movements need to do damage control, right? How else can anyone take them seriously.

Well, why then are feminists not held to the same standard? Have you guys read what some self-proclaimed feminists write on tumblr or say in Youtube videos? Noone calls for damage control their, or dismisses the cause of feminism. On the contrary, most people just wave that part of the movement away and ridicule people for even bringing it up.

So which one is it? You can't have it both ways.

Are you joking?

That argument is brought up against feminism all of the fucking time.

People are constantly suggesting that feminism has been tarnished by so-called 'feminazis.' Just pick a thread on feminism on these very forums and I guarantee you that you will see feminists on this site having to basically apologise for other people with particularly extreme or disagreeable opinions.

Feminists are not allowed to forget about the controversial elements of the movement and are constantly having to explain it or defend themselves against it. It's brought up as a means to discredit feminist thought as a whole constantly. I've read feminist works from the 1980s defending themselves against the same shit that feminists are still having to defend themselves against today.

It's funny because I know that some of the people defending GamerGate, saying that you can't judge the many by the actions of the few, have engaged in similar criticisms against "SJWs" and feminists. I guess it's only okay when they do it.

Yeah, I can see how feminism is generally dismissed based on that, seeing how everyone and their mom jumps to their defence whenever someone jumps out of the woodwork and brings up the femenazis (as you called them). And I totally see all the blog articles on reputable outlets decrying the movement because it contains those individuals.

So why is it acceptable here to dismiss this movement based on their extremists, and not with feminism? I'm asking this as someone who is on the fence on both. But if I dismiss the one based on that, I can't logically support the other one.

 

[Jack Action]

Are you joking?

That argument is brought up against feminism all of the fucking time.

People are constantly suggesting that feminism has been tarnished by so-called 'feminazis.' Just pick a thread on feminism on these very forums and I guarantee you that you will see feminists on this site having to basically apologise for other people with particularly extreme or disagreeable opinions.

...To be fair, when you've got people calling themselves feminists and calling for all men to be castrated, killed, or otherwise being partially or entirely removed from the face of the earth (or laughing at a man who got his dick chopped off, since that was mentioned recently), you really can't blame others for expecting you to distance yourself from them.

Feminists are not allowed to forget about the controversial elements of the movement and are constantly having to explain it or defend themselves against it. It's brought up as a means to discredit feminist thought as a whole constantly. I've read feminist works from the 1980s defending themselves against the same shit that feminists are still having to defend themselves against today.

I was going to point out that maybe there is a problem when this has been going on for 30 years and the nutjobs are still around, but that's more of a problem with the label 'feminist', which beyond the basic 'wants women to have equal rights' doesn't really have a definition, and anyone can apply it to themselves regardless of what they do with it.

It's funny because I know that some of the people defending GamerGate, saying that you can't judge the many by the actions of the few, have engaged in similar criticisms against "SJWs" and feminists. I guess it's only okay when they do it.

You could (and should) level the exact same argument against the journalist side of this mess.

Now, if you'll excuse me, as cowardly as this may seem, I'll stick to only reading this thread, because it's getting dangerously close to a flamewar and I have a nasty habit of getting involved in those.

 

[b.w.irenicus]

Now, I haven't really picked a side on the whole Gamergate thing, but this, this reeks once again like double standard. So it's okay to dismiss the Gamergate movement outright for their extremists. Okay, fair enough. Movements need to do damage control, right? How else can anyone take them seriously.

Well, why then are feminists not held to the same standard? Have you guys read what some self-proclaimed feminists write on tumblr or say in Youtube videos? Noone calls for damage control their, or dismisses the cause of feminism. On the contrary, most people just wave that part of the movement away and ridicule people for even bringing it up.

So which one is it? You can't have it both ways.

Are you joking?

That argument is brought up against feminism all of the fucking time.

People are constantly suggesting that feminism has been tarnished by so-called 'feminazis.' Just pick a thread on feminism on these very forums and I guarantee you that you will see feminists on this site having to basically apologise for other people with particularly extreme or disagreeable opinions.

Feminists are not allowed to forget about the controversial elements of the movement and are constantly having to explain it or defend themselves against it. It's brought up as a means to discredit feminist thought as a whole constantly. I've read feminist works from the 1980s defending themselves against the same shit that feminists are still having to defend themselves against today.

It's funny because I know that some of the people defending GamerGate, saying that you can't judge the many by the actions of the few, have engaged in similar criticisms against "SJWs" and feminists. I guess it's only okay when they do it.

I think that's the point he was making. Feminists face this argument all the time and it is (rightfully) dismissed. So how come that suddenly that kind of argument is totaly valid when used against someone else?

 

[Uriel_Hayabusa]

I still find it hilarious that I was accused of "white knighting" because I asked somebody to prove their claim that Zoe Quinn got positive press from Nathan Grayson.

There were also a lovely bunch of PMs sent out to people who, presumably, weren't explicitly on the "side" of GamerGate calling us all "subhumans" this morning.

The side opposing #GamerGate also knows a thing or two about harassment though.

http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/

 

[000Ronald]

I still find it hilarious that I was accused of "white knighting" because I asked somebody to prove their claim that Zoe Quinn got positive press from Nathan Grayson.

There were also a lovely bunch of PMs sent out to people who, presumably, weren't explicitly on the "side" of GamerGate calling us all "subhumans" this morning.

The side opposing #GamerGate also knows a thing or two about harassment though.

http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/

I don't know that the harassment itself is the point. For me, at least looking in from the outside, the point is that one side has so much harassment and vitriol that people have thrown their hands up and decided that there's nothing they can do about it. And, as I said in a previous post, that leads to a cycle where eventually people like that become the norm rather than the exception. If you have a point to make, you should be able to make it without coming off as...biased, I think, is the most neutral term.

Don't get me wrong, people doing that on either side is unacceptable, at least as far as I'm concerned. But you don't stop it by doing nothing about it. In fact, doing nothing about it is the worst thing you can do.

 

[Malbourne]

Well, if I was ever going to comment on this whole thingamajig, I'd rather do it on one of your topics, Fappy! I've been hesitant from the start to throw my hat into a ring filled with cannibalistic snakes that also eat hats. Also wanted to say, thanks for clarifying a bunch of the stuff I'm still completely in the dark about. I'm gonna go back to finishing TWD: Season Two, now.

 

[shrekfan246]

I still find it hilarious that I was accused of "white knighting" because I asked somebody to prove their claim that Zoe Quinn got positive press from Nathan Grayson.

There were also a lovely bunch of PMs sent out to people who, presumably, weren't explicitly on the "side" of GamerGate calling us all "subhumans" this morning.

The side opposing #GamerGate also knows a thing or two about harassment though.

http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/

I believe you'll find I've said nothing exempting the "side opposing" GamerGate.

You know what the primary difference is?

Most of them are nowhere near this website.

At best, we've got a bunch of people exasperated with the way people are acting about this whole mess. In fact, I'd dare say that, not unlike the threads we've had about Miss Sarkeesian over the past two years, the vast majority of posters are either against the evil feminist[footnote]Because I know somebody is going to take this as me "generalizing", that's a joke. Relax.[/footnote] involved or have tried remaining neutral to mediate and keep those guys calm. Where are the vast legions of horrible SJWs trying to ram censorship down our necks so that we all have to be 100% politically correct all the time? Oh, yeah, on Tumblr. And Twitter. Where they really can't do any sort of harm.

Yes, they've said a whole bunch of really awful shite since this thing blew up (and even before it) too. But just like GamerGate being full of tons of different people who are all pushing separate agendas doesn't excuse their behavior, them being awful doesn't give the GamerGate people license to fling mud at everyone they perceive to be "against" them. Especially when they're trying so very hard to convince everybody that the movement is in no way about excluding people from the games industry.

The fact is, when you get down to it, this whole 'controversy' was never really about games journalism.

In fact, I'd dare say that it was initially co-opted into being "about games journalism", all things considered. But yes, I have to agree, because if it had been then things would've calmed down as soon as people realized none of the claims of "corruption" actually held any weight in this instance.

And anyone who claims that it's all just the final straw that broke the camel's back, I find that incredibly hard to believe. First of all, nobody got this outraged over actual events which proved "corruption". Geoff Keighley's "Doritogate" nonsense wasn't even that long ago, but people mostly just joked about how sad he looked in that main picture all of the articles used and then started using memes about #doritos #dothedew and everything. No bloody controversy.

The thought was posed by the Co-Optional Podcast to think about what kind of reaction the internet would have to the Jeff Gerstmann thing if it happened today (or a similar situation happened again), rather than seven years ago. That was a good thought exercise, I believe. I'll be honest, I don't see any reason why something like that wouldn't explode in just as volatile a manner as this has. But I can immediately recognize where a few differences would be: Namely, that people would actually be focusing on the publication that fired said reviewer. In all likelihood, there wouldn't be quite so many people ready to believe that the entire indie gaming scene is run by a shadowy Illuminati group who also have so many members strewn about the games journalism industry that they can literally silence the entire internet. And there definitely wouldn't be so much focus on feminism/sexism.

This kind of crap is why I don't really pay attention to games media (beyond the handful of people I like) anymore. Too much drama and internet-bullshit to wade through, instead of people playing and/or enjoying games.

Amen. I don't get why everyone is so paranoid in the first place; if you're not reading from multiple sites in the first place and watching actual gameplay instead of that fabricated PR nonsense publishers release as "trailers", then I don't think you're being a careful enough consumer to begin with. And if you are that careful, then I don't see why you have anything to worry about. If all of the reviewers everywhere were "corrupt", that would've shown in their work a long time ago, which likely means that this little event involving one guy from Kotaku/RockPaperShotgun and one indie developer probably isn't going to massively change the entire field of games journalism either. If you're (the general "you", of course) really so afraid of a reviewer giving a game a 9/10 or something because you might not agree with them, then... I really don't actually have anything to say to you.

There were also a lovely bunch of PMs sent out to people who, presumably, weren't explicitly on the "side" of GamerGate calling us all "subhumans" this morning.

Wow. I don't have a horse in the whole GamerGate thing, but that's pretty messed up no matter what side you're on. Did the person who sent them at least get banned?

Dunno, the PMs were all sent over the weekend when the staff isn't in the office, so they might be taken care of some time today.

 

[AkaDad]

Is that even possible when 4chan is involved? I'm sure someone from 4chan can explain how their bad reputation is unfounded, you know, once they're done looking at stolen nude celeb pics posted there.

 

[000Ronald]

*snip*

a. do not talk down to me.

b. "we" are "doing it".

c. ergo there is no need for me to "re-evaluate my position".

ps. i'm still waiting on that answer i asked for about what else we should do.

I don't know that I was speaking down to you. I made every effort to be as even-handed and neutral as I could. If you feel that I disrespected you, I apologize, but I would also ask that you tell me how you feel I disrespected you, so that I can avoid it in the future.

Regarding your other three points, I wasn't talking about you specifically, but the side you seem to have taken as a whole. As I tried to impress before, the company you keep speaks as much to your position as your actual position does. And that you (and several others on this thread) have said that the misogynist attitudes within your side of the debate are so pervasive that there seems to be nothing you can do about it tells me, as someone who is only casually involved with the situation, that you would rather scream and shout than make any legitimate point. Again, I impress, not you specifically; but rather your group as a whole.

What I said to Lacktheknack applies to you and yours, as well; when you are speaking on a public forum, even if it is only an online forum, you are not just talking to one or two people; you are performing, for an audience who's response you can't necessarily see. A year from now, ten years from now, twenty years from now, people are going to be able to look this up and see what you had to say, and more importantly, how you said it. I know that if I have to choose between someone who seems to be making a legitimate point, even if it isn't a point I agree with, and someone who is doing little more than barking like a dog, I'm going to look into the side of the more rational person first. That's why I choose my words so carefully; because I want to attract people of a similar mindset, and discourage the more rancid aspects within that debate, whether they share my opinion or not.

Discussion, regardless the topic, can be respectful and civilized. It has to be; just shouting over one another doesn't work anymore, not with two billion voices that can shout at each other any time of day. We need more than righteous indignation, more than self-aggrandizing. We need to work together.

 

[Starbird]

I educated myself today on what exactly has been going down and ended up with more questions than answers. Don't get me wrong, I understand the facts of the situation. I understand who said and did what (many of whom are ancillary at best and blatantly irrelevant at worst), and I understand what the point of #GamerGate is. I get it, people want a more accountable gaming press as well as a more ethical and fair Indy development scene.

But what the fuck is all this unrelated bullshit doing here? Why have the lines been drawn between so-called 'SJWs' and 'misogynerd' (or whatever the fuck they're called)? Why is feminism a factor at all? Oh wait, I see, many of the 'misogynerds' are saying that the Indy/Gaming Press Illuminati is using feminism/misogyny as a smokescreen to censor debate. Well if that's the case, then why the fuck are women, some of which have NO connection to any of this (like Anita), getting bombarded with harassment in the form of death and rape threats in relation to this?

You really wonder why people aren't giving #GamerGate the time of day? Really? It doesn't compute? STOP GIVING THEM AMMO! Teach the idiots within your ranks to keep their goddamn mouths shut. Whether you agree with their insane ravings or not, they are associated with your movement and their actions do reflect on your message. The only thing holding me back from supporting this movement is the simple fact that it is so over-saturated with immature, volatile and outright hateful people that I can't bring myself to support it. I cringe every time I see one of your ilk cry "Social Justice Warrior" and that Vivian James (or whatever) mascot is just a sad attempt at the "but I have black friends" defense.

Don't get me wrong, I won't for a second sit here and tell you that I give a damn about any Indy developers and publications getting thrown under the bus if they deserve it. If they are guilty of the crimes they've been accused of, then of course they deserve to be brought down for it; but you know, in an ethical, mature and humane way. Any prying into their personal lives or threats against them are obviously crossing the line, but that should go without saying.

If you want a more accountable gaming press, you're going to have to prove that you deserve it. Some of the more visible names on the #GamerGate side of the fence are clearly concerned about what truly matters, but many more seemingly are not.

Please, tell me if I am off-base, because from where I stand I think I am actually being more fair to #GamerGate than it deserves. As someone who studied journalism, I have always been critical of the gaming press' integrity, so I am naturally inclined to throw in my support; but this case is not so simple. I will not associate myself with a movement that is harassing and threatening people nor one that sees fit to blame everything on feminism of all things.

Define your message and cease this childish 'SJW' finger pointing. Look to the men that inspired the movement's namesake: Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, and follow their example. They were professionals who acted with discretion, and if your movement wants to be taken seriously so do you.

/flameshieldactivated

Well said.

I'm mostly on the side of Gamergate and think that the people around the whole Tropes thing are at best misguided and at worst complete idiots.

That said the horrible stuff that has gone on here has made me massively uncomfortable with this. I really think that more should have been done to track down and expose the people making the threats to the authorities as well as totally disavowing them, rather than this tacit 'well bad things were done but *I* didn't do them so I don't care because they are done by people on my side' approval of it.

 

[Areloch]

If the GamerGate people are rational and this is all about journalistic ethics, then where were all the forum posts ABOUT journalistic ethics prior to Zoe Quinn's sex scandal? I know of a few, but it seems like most of the people talking about journalistic ethics prior to the scandal were the very progressives and "SJWs" who are supposedly corrupt.

If I may interject a permutation of your statement, in an attempt to highlight why that's a poor argument:

If the patients in insane asylums are rational and this is all about medical ethics, then where were all the news reports ABOUT ethics prior to Elizabeth Jane Cochran's undercover investigation? I know of a few, but it seems like most of the people talking about medical ethics prior to the scandal were the very progressives and the wardens who are supposedly corrupt.

The fact of the matter is, people can't protest against things that they don't know exist. Case to point, I barely registered Chipman existed, let alone knew he had a twitter. However, regardless of if he should be fired or not, calling people 'Subhuman' or 'vermin' is decidedly unprofessional behavior.

In the case of Gamergate on a whole, yes, at-large public awareness was sparked by the original controversy, but I think it's safe to say that with all the game devs and journalists that are either close friends or paying each other, let alone potential actual racketeering fraud with the recent Indiecade/IGF/IndieFund news that has come to light, that there are legitimate problems to discuss.

Even if the starting point was stupid, or some people in the discussion are obnoxious and derailing the topic.

 

[b.w.irenicus]

As I tried to impress before, the company you keep speaks as much to your position as your actual position does. And that you (and several others on this thread) have said that the misogynist attitudes within your side of the debate are so pervasive that there seems to be nothing you can do about it tells me, as someone who is only casually involved with the situation, that you would rather scream and shout than make any legitimate point. Again, I impress, not you specifically; but rather your group as a whole.

Well I kinds see the point, but then again... Hm, the same thing could be said about the other side, judging by some of Moviebobs tweets using Nazi-slang like subhumans and vermin. Or feminists as a whole:

The company you keep speaks as much to your position as your actual position does. And that you (and several others on this thread) have said that the feminists who support killallmen and mass castration within your side of the debate are so pervasive that there seems to be nothing you can do about it tells me, as someone who is only casually involved with the situation, that you would rather scream and shout than make any legitimate point. Again, I impress, not you specifically; but rather your group as a whole.

See how that works?