#GamerGate Needs Damage Control Badly (Small OP Update)

[thethird0611]

Just googeling sexism in gaming doesn't mean theres misogyny.

http://nms.sagepub.com/content/9/4/555.abstract

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/JenniferAllaway/20140331/214320/The_Reality_of_Sexism_in_the_Game_Industry.php

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/art-imitating-life-how-sexism-in-video-games-mirrors-reallife-gender-imbalance-8381426.html

http://www.gameranx.com/updates/id/12777/article/women-are-targeted-for-harassment-in-online-gaming-roughly-three-times-as-much-says-new-study/

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/

http://www.notinthekitchenanymore.com/

http://adanewmedia.org/2012/11/issue1-consalvo/

http://www.shapingyouth.org/sexism-in-video-games-tropes-trolls-and-terrific-upstanders/

https://twitter.com/search?q=%231reasonwhy&src=hash

http://clrn.dmlhub.net/content/gender-and-sexism-in-online-gaming-communities

I wanted to include this one too but it's behind a paywall: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369118X.2011.642401#preview

Dude, did you even read the abstract of your first one?

"This study examines how individual differences in the consumption of computer games intersect with gender and how games and gender mutually constitute each other. The study focused on adult women with particular attention to differences in level of play, as well as genre preferences. Three levels of game consumption were identified. For power gamers, technology and gender are most highly integrated. These women enjoy multiple pleasures from the gaming experience, including mastery of game-based skills and competition. Moderate gamers play games in order to cope with their real lives. These women reported taking pleasure in controlling the gaming environment, or alternately that games provide a needed distraction from the pressures of their daily lives. Finally, the non-gamers who participated in the study expressed strong criticisms about game-playing and gaming culture. For these women, games are a waste of time, a limited commodity better spent on other activities."

Its no even about sexism!

You can't just pull link and say, "Go through these and take whats relevant." Holy crap dude. I am not going through those links and reading things to could possibly be 100% irrelevant to the conversation.

Jesus man. That is not how you have a damn discussion.

 

[thethird0611]

Just googeling sexism in gaming doesn't mean theres misogyny.

And more:

http://videogames.procon.org/sourcefiles/an-examination-of-violence-and-gender-role-portrayals-in-video-games.pdf

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiYenTang/20140613/219216/A_field_experiment_on_reactions_to_a_womans_friend_request_in_an_FPS_game.php

https://www.msu.edu/~pengwei/Mou%20Peng.pdf

http://phys.org/news/2014-06-racial-gender-representation-video-games.html

http://phys.org/news/2013-10-sexualized-avatars-affect-real-world.html#inlRlv

http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/assassins-creed-gaming-sexism-also-about-animation/

http://time.com/3274247/video-game-culture-war/

http://www.hastac.org/blogs/ezobel/2014/03/06/damsels-distress-female-representation-video-games

http://em-journal.com/2013/10/gender-bias-in-american-video-gaming.html

http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/ - less focused on gaming but still insightful

Dude, look at my post before yours. I am done talking to you. You don't want to have a discussion. You havent read any of those links it seems, and there is no reason to talk to you when all you want to do is drown out someones voice.

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

*Snip*

As somebody who more or less sides with the GamerGate crowd, let me give my on personal take on this. Keep in mind that I've been keeping far less tabs on this during the past week at least, so I may be a bit out of date. Also, this may be the biggest wall o' text I've ever made, so be prepared for a doozie. Nevertheless, here we go:

First off, fuck the SJW vs misogynist bullshit and fuck "Us vs Them" mentality. Fuck harassment from all sides and those who perpetrate it. Nobody deserves to be treated as less than human, especially people like Not the Bees and others who either disagree or simply remain neutral to one's opinions.

With that said, it's important to remember that there's a lot more to GamerGate than just making the press more accountable. In fact, the GamerGate hashtag itself was created for an entirely different yet connected purpose - that gamers as a whole have been getting demonized like it's the Jack Thompson era again, and people are getting sick of it.

In order to elaborate on this, let me go into my own personal adventure with this mess. Back when the Zoe Quinn thread was at around 2k posts, I finally jumped into it to see what the fuss was about (something I usually don't do). Now I'm the kind of person who tries to hear out all perspectives and believes highly in the value of gathering as many perspectives as possible, so despite how silly it seemed I listened to what the anti-Quinn side had to say. It's important to note that at the time, the SJW angle really wasn't being pushed by most of these people, and those who did were easy for me to ignore.

I heard a lot of arguments and points (along with the ad-hominems) from the anti-Quinn side and a lot of evidence was brought up. Most of that evidence was circumstantial or of similar status, a bit was indisputable, some was flat-out false or misleading. However, there was evidence presented, and enough in my eyes to at least acknowledge the possibility that they might be right. When I started trying to hear out the Quinn side, though, things were... different. Virtually every argument I was seeing from Quinn and her supporters (including Anita, which is how she got wrapped up in this) was pretty much a blatant dismissal of her critics, with faaar too much criticism either being labeled off as harassment or was strawmanned into being about something else - which was almost always misogyny. This spit directly into the faces of the arguments I was reading and hearing, as I actually heard those arguments and knew firsthand what was actually being argued. None of the criticisms were being addressed at all by almost all of Quinn's supporters, and every bit of evidence - regardless of validity or form - being written off en-masse as either doctored or falsified.

This is what initially dragged me in. I have a pet peeve when it comes to strawman dismissals, which may factor in from my time in high-school when I actually studied logical fallacies. Trying to dismiss one's argument without actually addressing the arguments they make pisses me off to no end, and is why the two words I hate the most by a landslide are "jealous" and "hater" - the two most common half-assed dismissals in history. Seeing so many from the Quinn side trying to paint all of Zoe's critics as arguing something that they usually weren't, then attacking them directly over the falsified perception of them in true strawman fashion... well, it pissed me right the fuck off too. Now keep in mind that I'm fully aware that harassment was and still is happening from both sides. However, those responsible for genuine harassment (aka not just mere criticism) were not the majority of the people I was hearing from in the single largest discussion on the topic outside of Twitter itself, so to write them all off as that was blatantly wrong to me.

Anyways, I ended up taking a break for a couple of days because this shitstorm was fucking me up mentally. When I got back, that blasted SJW crap had suddenly become far more prevalent and I kept arguing against people who were trying to make it about that. Eventually that calmed down quite a bit, but at that point I really started to distance myself from that thread (mental health, again), only showing up every couple of days to get a quick rundown on things. Nevertheless, I've been a bit behind on things since.

Still, when I was paying attention I was still noticing that certain key things still weren't changing. People who were either against Quinn or were neutral were still getting ridiculed and harassed by her supporters, and the many people who weren't arguing the SJW crap (and even those that were, but were making other points as well) were still having their legitimate arguments dismissed and ignored as hatred and misogyny. Journalists and indie devs were still treating all critics like literal terrorists and monsters, but were now taking it to new levels by condemning gamers as a whole. The anti-Quinn side still had a fuckton of guilty people in their party, of course, but that doesn't justify the villainizing of all gamers in the slightest.

As I mentioned earlier, I was only keeping up on this every few days or so, thanks to mental health and personal issues in my life taking far more precedence over internet drama. Sometime while I wasn't looking, the GamerGate and NotYourShield campaigns happened, and by all accounts I've seen it happened over what I just described above - the entirety of the gaming community was being villainized and people from all over were getting condemned and dismissed for things they never did or said (usually for hating women, despite some of them being women themselves), and they were fucking tired of it.

That's what the GamerGate hashtag itself is genuinely about, even if the entire Zoe Quinn shitstorm is about more than that. People are fed up with being strawmanned, harassed, and / or villainized for things that they didn't actually do or say, with many posts in this very thread proving their point. How many people here are still claiming that this is about misogynists wanting to harass women or keep them down? Why do so many think that GamerGate is just trolls trying to start shit or just looking for something to hate, when many of those in GamerGate are saying exactly why they're pissed off? Why is the harassment caused by people from GamerGate being so heavily acknowledged, but not the harassment towards them?

I get the feeling I could have worded that last paragraph MUCH better, but I've already wasted like 2 hours or more typing this, so I'm going to try to wrap this up. If I've fucked it up, I apologize.

My point is that GamerGate is about people being tired of getting crap for things they didn't do or argue, yet many people still run under the notion that they're just trolls / haters / misogynists / etc, which is proving GamerGate's point further and pissing them off even more. That does not justify ANY of the harassment caused by people in the GamerGate crowd, but neither does that justify villifying the whole lot or even gamers as a whole. Doing that only further enforces the horribly toxic "Us vs Them" nonsense that needs to motherfucking die already. If any of us want to make things better, then we need to encourage civility and actually hearing each other out, not call each other names and dismissing everything that the other side has to say. That is not how progress is made (as the US government's partisan bullshit has proven. HEEYOOO!! >).

 

[RedDeadFred]

Yes. You tell them to stop. But you don't just tell them to stop. You beg them to stop. You plead with them to stop. You make them understand that there is a way that you have chosen to conduct yourselves, and that their behavior isn't adhering to that. You explain to them that people pay more attention to inane death threats than actual, real discussion, and that their actions are doing more to harm the cause they're championing than help it. You sit them down and you tell them that their behavior is unacceptable, that it reflects poorly on you and the rest of the group, and that you will not be having it.

And if that doesn't work, you demand they stop. You demand they stop because they are embarrassing themselves. Because they are embarrassing you. Because for every person who will be cowed into silence by being threatened with murder or rape, two or three or five or ten more moderate, more reasonable people are going to leave the discussion, most of them from your side. Because they make you and everyone else who believes as you do, look like a clown. And you repeat it as often as you can, to as many people as you can, with as much conviction as you can possibly muster. You make sure that there is no question in anyone's mind how you feel about harassment.

Speaking as someone who is on the outside of this insanity, I think the issue is that it's simply much harder to convince someone of something through text than in person. A message through text can be easily ignored, discarded immediately, misconstrued, or simply be ineffectual. Speaking to someone in person is a lot more effective because you're right there, they can't ignore you and since you're speaking in person, there will be an emotional weight behind what you're saying. That's quite hard to convey in text. Simply telling them to try harder isn't really fair because effective writing (where you are getting through to someone on an emotional level) is a skill that many people do not posses.

For a while I was of the opinion that they should be ignored like any other troll and honestly, I'm still not sure if that might not be the best solution. "Don't feed the trolls" and all that? I know it's hard to ignore it with the sheer amount and severity of the vitriol being thrown, but really, has it actually been tried? Again, I don't know if that would work, but I feel like it should be given a try. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. What I'm trying to say is that I can sympathize with the seemingly impossible task of talking down an entire group of fairly irrational people through text. Especially when the average writer isn't going to posses the writing skills of something even close to that of a professional writer.

I don't know, this is mostly speculation. What do you think?

 

[thethird0611]

Dude, look at my post before yours. I am done talking to you. You don't want to have a discussion. You havent read any of those links it seems, and there is no reason to talk to you when all you want to do is drown out someones voice.

Hey, I can only point you to the information. If you can't be bothered to read that's fine.

You are pointing me to link, you have no idea what information is behind it.

You aren't even bothered to read the damn links you post.

You are being incredibly intellectually dishonest.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Well we can talk about how a 12 year old on the #gamergate side was threatened to be stabbed in his own home. We can talk about all the doxxing with TFYC and how it could of put them out of a job.

The high ground. You do not have it.

And you are welcome to provide sources for all of this...

Though I'd be inclined to believe that, in the case of TFYC, however tight or otherwise their link to the wider #gamergate movement may be (I confess I don't actually know a lot about them) are certainly not being hurt by all the free publicity. Hell, if they stand at the end of this as the only example of anything constructive to have arisen out of this whole mess, and whatever it is they're doing is proven to actually have helped with anything, it might even make the whole tiresome affair worth something.

FYI, don't take my quotes out of context.

This is what Flappy said.

"Anything someone says on behalf of your movement WILL reflect on your movement's message whether the majority agrees with it or not. "

So yes, I can hate feminism if that is what we are basing it on. You also don't hear a lot of #gamergate trying to stop the harassment because you don't listen. It constantly happens. Its a fucking two sided fight.

Well, I'm sure "Flappy" can speak for himself. However, while I would be inclined to agree with the sentiment, I would personally add the addendum "...unless the movement itself is pro-active if preventing itself from being co-opted." These people shouldn't get to reflect on #gamergate's increasingly nebulous 'message', because they shouldn't have been tolerated in the first place. Now, neither you nor anyone else can physically reach into a troll's room and slap their hand away from the keyboard, but that doesn't mean positive voices can do nothing to drown out negative ones, if the positives do indeed have the majority. Metal did it, feminism did it, and if #gamergate is honestly unable or just unwilling to do it, that does indeed say just as much about you as it does about the trolls.

The funny thing is, you still think this is about Zoe, which renders your whole arugment useless.

Do you know though, that by Zoe's definition, she raped Eron? This is backed up with Facebook messages.

What's funnier, is that you say is isn't about Zoe, but then call her a rapist in your very next sentence completely out of the blue, as if Zoe's personal definition of rape (to any extent that it falls outside the actual definition) means anything at all, let alone is relevant to the role she's alleged to have played in this whole thing.

I have to ask, genuinely... you are aware of what Character Assassination is, aren't you?

Despite your claims to the contrary, this can't help but still be about Zoe Quinn for two reasons:

1) You and people like you keep jumping on every available opportunity to make personal attacks against her, even when it derails your own argument.

2) Any other supposed objective of #gamergate, for example rooting out corruption in games journalism (or at least, the corruption that you want to find), was inspired by the allegations made about Zoe. These allegations have still not been supported by a single shred of evidence. Therefore, if you still can't prove that the supposed catalyst of your movement is even a real story worthy of discussion, then none of the wider problems you believe it was indicative of will be. From the outside, it will continue to look like you're trying to jump into a pool full of nothing, from a springboard that doesn't exist. If you imagine that image in your head for a second, then the only possible result is pain and embarrassment for the diver.

 

[thethird0611]

Well we can talk about how a 12 year old on the #gamergate side was threatened to be stabbed in his own home. We can talk about all the doxxing with TFYC and how it could of put them out of a job.

The high ground. You do not have it.

And you are welcome to provide sources for all of this...

Though I'd be inclined to believe that, in the case of TFYC, however tight or otherwise their link to the wider #gamergate movement may be (I confess I don't actually know a lot about them) are certainly not being hurt by all the free publicity. Hell, if they stand at the end of this as the only example of anything constructive to have arisen out of this whole mess, and whatever it is they're doing is proven to actually have helped with anything, it might even make the whole tiresome affair worth something.

FYI, don't take my quotes out of context.

This is what Flappy said.

"Anything someone says on behalf of your movement WILL reflect on your movement's message whether the majority agrees with it or not. "

So yes, I can hate feminism if that is what we are basing it on. You also don't hear a lot of #gamergate trying to stop the harassment because you don't listen. It constantly happens. Its a fucking two sided fight.

Well, I'm sure "Flappy" can speak for himself. However, while I would be inclined to agree with the sentiment, I would personally add the addendum "...unless the movement itself is pro-active if preventing itself from being co-opted." These people shouldn't get to reflect on #gamergate's increasingly nebulous 'message', because they shouldn't have been tolerated in the first place. Now, neither you nor anyone else can physically reach into a troll's room and slap their hand away from the keyboard, but that doesn't mean positive voices can do nothing to drown out negative ones, if the positives do indeed have the majority. Metal did it, feminism did it, and if #gamergate is honestly unable or just unwilling to do it, that does indeed say just as much about you as it does about the trolls.

The funny thing is, you still think this is about Zoe, which renders your whole arugment useless.

Do you know though, that by Zoe's definition, she raped Eron? This is backed up with Facebook messages.

What's funnier, is that you say is isn't about Zoe, but then call her a rapist in your very next sentence completely out of the blue, as if Zoe's personal definition of rape (to any extent that it falls outside the actual definition) means anything at all, let alone is relevant to the role she's alleged to have played in this whole thing.

I have to ask, genuinely... you are aware of what Character Assassination is, aren't you?

Despite your claims to the contrary, this can't help but still be about Zoe Quinn for two reasons:

1) You and people like you keep jumping on every available opportunity to make personal attacks against her, even when it derails your own argument.

2) Any other supposed objective of #gamergate, for example rooting out corruption in games journalism (or at least, the corruption that you want to find), was inspired by the allegations made about Zoe. These allegations have still not been supported by a single shred of evidence. Therefore, if you still can't prove that the supposed catalyst of your movement is even a real story worthy of discussion, then none of the wider problems you believe it was indicative of will be. From the outside, it will continue to look like you're trying to jump into a pool full of nothing, from a springboard that doesn't exist. If you imagine that image in your head for a second, then the only possible result is pain and embarrassment for the diver.

1. Go ask in the mega thread. I am to busy now to look it up. Someone will pull the screenshot for you. Its a thread on twitter.

2. TFYC were getting fucked before this because of Zoe doxxing them and telling the clique to call it sexist.

3. So, "Anything "I" Agree with can't be looked down upon". Nice. Very good point there.

4. You know I said that to rustle your jimmies since you still think its mainly about Quinn, right? Because people think of her as a saint. And it wasn't me who called her one, it is her own self that did.

5. Yeah, something can come from one thing and turn into another its pretty simple.

Anyway, im done in this thread. I have one guy spamming me with links that he didn't even ready, and I have you who is so against #gamergate that I know for sure that you won't listen to what I have to say.

Why waste my breath. Or my fingers. So feel free to reply, but I am not gonna read anything more from this thread, sorry.

 

[Jux]

There were also a lovely bunch of PMs sent out to people who, presumably, weren't explicitly on the "side" of GamerGate calling us all "subhumans" this morning.

I didn't get one, even though I am a subhuman. I eat subs, and I'm human. QED.

I didn't get one either, maybe that was because I abandoned that pile of shit when it was moved out of R&P. Gamergate looks like nothing more than a 4chan astroturf movement that masks misogyny as investigation into ethics corruption. Sorry, but I don't need to look any further than the screed that opened up in R&P about how many dudes ZQ allegedly screwed to see that. Had this really been about corruption from the start, that would never have factored into the discussion. Everything since then has been spin trying to keep this witchhunt going.

 

[subskipper]

I'm sort of staying out of this whole thing, but I did have the Tweetstream from NotYourShield and GamerGate up for like a day and a half and rarely saw anything on there that I saw as harassment. Then I let it be for a bit and saw lots of people claim it was a disgraceful act considering what's going on with that hashtag so I looked again expecting things to have capsized completely. I still couldn't see much that could be called harassment. Not saying it doesn't happen, but from my perspective it certainly looked like the "other side" were the ones throwing around some rather powerful insults, some of them games writers on various sites.Just an observation from someone kind of looking in from the outside. I'll leave you alone now.

 

[000Ronald]

Yes. You tell them to stop. But you don't just tell them to stop. You beg them to stop. You plead with them to stop. You make them understand that there is a way that you have chosen to conduct yourselves, and that their behavior isn't adhering to that. You explain to them that people pay more attention to inane death threats than actual, real discussion, and that their actions are doing more to harm the cause they're championing than help it. You sit them down and you tell them that their behavior is unacceptable, that it reflects poorly on you and the rest of the group, and that you will not be having it.

And if that doesn't work, you demand they stop. You demand they stop because they are embarrassing themselves. Because they are embarrassing you. Because for every person who will be cowed into silence by being threatened with murder or rape, two or three or five or ten more moderate, more reasonable people are going to leave the discussion, most of them from your side. Because they make you and everyone else who believes as you do, look like a clown. And you repeat it as often as you can, to as many people as you can, with as much conviction as you can possibly muster. You make sure that there is no question in anyone's mind how you feel about harassment.

Speaking as someone who is on the outside of this insanity, I think the issue is that it's simply much harder to convince someone of something through text than in person. A message through text can be easily ignored, discarded immediately, misconstrued, or simply be ineffectual. Speaking to someone in person is a lot more effective because you're right there, they can't ignore you and since you're speaking in person, there will be an emotional weight behind what you're saying. That's quite hard to convey in text. Simply telling them to try harder isn't really fair because effective writing (where you are getting through to someone on an emotional level) is a skill that many people do not posses.

For a while I was of the opinion that they should be ignored like any other troll and honestly, I'm still not sure if that might not be the best solution. "Don't feed the trolls" and all that? I know it's hard to ignore it with the sheer amount and severity of the vitriol being thrown, but really, has it actually been tried? Again, I don't know if that would work, but I feel like it should be given a try. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. What I'm trying to say is that I can sympathize with the seemingly impossible task of talking down an entire group of fairly irrational people through text. Especially when the average writer isn't going to posses the writing skills of something even close to that of a professional writer.

I don't know, this is mostly speculation. What do you think?

I think that we've tried ignoring them for years, and that's only made the problem worse. And there's a psychological aspect to that; you don't change bad behavior by ignoring it, you change attention seeking behavior by ignoring it. You change bad behavior by challenging it, by showing them new ways to do things, and how their actions are harming not just themselves, but others as well.

And even beyond that, I think (and I would hope that I've made this perfectly clear by now) that any kind of harassment, especially threatening people with rape and death, are absolutely unacceptable.

That being said, I don't mean to say that you should just beat people over the head with their own intolerance. Come to them compassionately at first. Let them know that you understand that they are exasperated, but flying off the handle isn't going to help anyone, least of all them. Don't go full-on confrontational right off the bat, is what I'm saying; they're likely to re-direct their anger right at you, and you probably don't want that.

That being said, it's a little bit more difficult to do that when you're talking over text. I acknowledge that. But as I said earlier, just because something is difficult doesn't mean you don't at least try to do it. Even just letting someone know how you feel can act as a stopgap, at least give them a chance to think about what they're doing.

And the absolute bottom line is this: I am absolutely fed up with this kind of behavior. I am sick of hearing about it, I am sick of watching it, I am sick of bearing the brunt of it. And I do genuinely hope that there are enough people around that feel the same way that we can make a difference.

 

[Nieroshai]

I have too ask, based on what I've read: can I have a negative opinion about two people who both have demonstrably demonized their critics and doxxed people who've pissed them off but caused no other harm? Or am I a potential terrorist and mysogynist asshole who sees the Illuminati around every corner? Oh no, people hate these people. Doesn't mean their behavior has ANY excuse.

 

[thundra]

I did not get a pm. Must be because i'm new here. Any way shit is getting of rails. Everybody needs to calmdown. This is not healthy to anyone.

 

[Slayer4472]

This post reminds me quite a bit of the reactions to Occupy Wall Street.

OWS: We're going to protest corruption in finances.

Conservatives: Look at this one person committing vandalism! All these protesters are anarchists who want to destroy the United States and freedom!

It's essentially the same thing. I'm very sorry that someone decided to send out a post calling all of y'all "subhuman", but ultimately I have no control over that individuals actions. The only thing I can do is try to conduct myself with honor, and encourage others to do so.

 

[eberhart]

You have someone else to thank for that. You know, certain clickbaiting ambulance chasers... or bloggers (it's changing too fast recently) who are responsible for skewing the narrative towards everything that's fucked up. Get enough websites playing that echo chamber and numbers or proportions stop being relevant.

I know exactly who to thank for that - the people who drove Jenn Frank and Mattie Brice out of the industry for not buying into the conspiracy theory claims.

The people who send Anita Sarkeesian child porn because she applies standard feminist critique to gaming.

The people who think 'sjws' are a thing.

Those are the people who are poisoning this debate.

Right - because when journalist and her outlet can't get their story straight about who failed where, the guilt should be thrown at the feet of a third party.

Just like random nobody from Internet tweeting CP at industry version of a celebrity invalidates everything else, related or not.

As for SJW - it might be hard to accept that other people can be just as crafty with language bending. To the point where "SJWs" are a thing, because they fulfill the criteria that have been preemptively set for... "SJWs". Refer to that stinking pile of "this game is misogynistic" in journalistic backyard for further explanation on how it works. Predictably though, it only feels "poisoning" when someone else is doing it.

--------------------

And seriously, with your "poisoning"... Internet is not like a crowded room with a screaming asshole you have to physically throw out else no one hears anything. In majority of actual "debates" it requires additional clicks somewhere near "ignore", "report" or "modnuke". If THAT is too much for an average internet user, then we're setting this bar incredibly low. Which can kinda explain how certain "progressive" population can be abusive and self-righteous at the same time ie. no standards w/ high expectations. And, hey, that brings us straight to "those people" you mentioned.

Which is where I ask Internet why would anyone want to take "bad apples" or "poisoned debate" with a straight face. It's a XIXth century sermon morality, which is ironic on its own considering who tries to use it. A scene where armchair internet psychologist tries to show how apples are "corrupting/poisoning others" has its place in some really, really bad comedy. So not even semi-serious gaming forum applies.